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SlickStick
05-03-2005, 07:57 AM
Why is it that after you jam your flaps they have to keep making the sound effect like they are extending or retracting? And in the 109, that goose honking is totally unbearable after jamming flaps.

I've already seen the message that my flaps jammed, why do I have to keep hearing the sound of them moving? It can be very annoying if you are far from base and must keep flying or fighting to get home, constantly hearing "honk, honk, honk" or "sssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhsshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh".

In my opinion, once flaps jam, they should stop making noise, as they can't move anymore and the message clearly states that they have been jammed.

Just my opinion, as I hate having to turn my speakers down everytime I jam my flaps.

whitetornado_1
05-03-2005, 08:09 AM
Actually it is a punishemnt for exceeding the allowed speed with your flaps on.

The 109 is swearing at you in for neglecting
the flaps.

HONK HONK HONK HONK HONK HONK

[translation]

WHY DID YOU LEAVE THE FLAPS ON IN THAT DIVE
YOU &*%&*$%?(?* ...&*(&*(&&..and the message
repeats itself.

Urufu_Shinjiro
05-03-2005, 08:46 AM
I hate it when I flap my jamms....

3.JG51_BigBear
05-03-2005, 09:02 AM
On a related note, combat flaps shouldn't open at any speed without damage to the flaps and the plane.

noshens
05-03-2005, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
On a related note, combat flaps shouldn't open at any speed without damage to the flaps and the plane.
you mean should?

JG53Frankyboy
05-03-2005, 10:06 AM
and it is so, you can set combat flaps in every plane (that have them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) to Vnev without damage flaps.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-03-2005, 10:36 AM
No they should not. On all aircaft there is a maximum speed after which combat/manuever flaps cannot be extended. This is the reason for the system on the wildcats that would bring the flaps in through a vacuum system as the plane reached maximum speed for flap extension and the warning horn on the 109. The maximum speed for extension of these flaps is usually quite high but it is not accurately modelled in the game.

Jaws2002
05-03-2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
No they should not. On all aircaft there is a maximum speed after which combat/manuever flaps cannot be extended. This is the reason for the system on the wildcats that would bring the flaps in through a vacuum system as the plane reached maximum speed for flap extension and the warning horn on the 109. The maximum speed for extension of these flaps is usually quite high but it is not accurately modelled in the game.

What is more funny is the flaps on a slider thing. you can make a spitfire (had only landing flaps) set the flaps at any angle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

SlickStick
05-03-2005, 11:06 AM
True, Spitfire flaps on a slider produce the same flaps positions that the AI uses. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Using flaps is one of the keys to tighter turning in this game and I use them all of the time. They usually jam when I forget they are down and speed up or lose my focus for a sec and exceed the max speed with them down.

I just see no reason for them to keep making movement or warning noises, once I've seen the message.

Monson74
05-03-2005, 12:35 PM
Does it really matter? Just crank up the volume & say out loud: "Warning! The plane will selfdestruct in T minus 5 minutes - you have 4 minutes to reach minimum security distance!"

SithSpeeder
05-03-2005, 12:42 PM
Do the F4F Wildcat! It's been my experience that if you are flying too fast with flaps deployed, they simply go back up. I'm not sure if this is a just a bug or an excellent design that I wish were on every other plane.

* _54th_Speeder *

3.JG51_BigBear
05-03-2005, 12:58 PM
It was a feature built into the real aircraft. The pilot could leave the flap selector down in combat and the flaps would automatically deploy at the right speed. Very nice feature in the turn fights I'm sure navy planners expected the wildcats to be involved in.

SlickStick
05-03-2005, 01:03 PM
So, seeing this has moved, I guess I am to assume that flaps should keep making the movement noise, even though jammed in one position?!?!

It's a bug in my opinon and should be reviewed by the development team. If the "sssssssssh" sound is the mechanical sound of flaps deploying or retracting, once jammed, the sound should stop.

Bad decision on the mod's part, IMHO, as usual.

Tallyho1961
05-03-2005, 01:20 PM
I'm with Slick on this - it's a really irritating sound. I can't imagine it being addressed, however.

SlickStick
05-03-2005, 01:28 PM
I don't mind it not being addressed, as I realize they have more important things to worry about at this time, but to move it from the forum where it should be discussed and possibly acknowledged, is the strange part.

The main thing is that I've seen other little things find their way into patches and thought this is one of my few complaints about the game and wanted to know why it is in there and hey, ya never know....http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Taylortony
05-03-2005, 01:52 PM
Actually the noise is simulating the increased airflow noise as they move, not it moving in or out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SlickStick
05-03-2005, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
Actually the noise is simulating the increased airflow noise as they move, not it moving in or out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hmmmm, that would make sense if it wasn't the exact same sound as flaps extending and retracting. No difference though. While on the ground moving flaps is the exact same sound the flaps make when jammed.

Also, there is no sound in the game for increased air flow over the flaps when extended without being jammed. If it was, I wouldn't jam them because I would most certainly hear that sound and pull my flaps back in quicker. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
05-03-2005, 01:59 PM
That isn't a terrible explanation but the noise should still stop like it does when the flaps stop in the combat, takeoff, and landing positions. And I can't be sure because I usually don't pay attention to it but don't the flaps make the noise when you're sitting on the ground.

3.JG51_BigBear
05-03-2005, 02:00 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif He,he. Beat me to it.

SlickStick
05-03-2005, 05:44 PM
Ah, thinking a little more on this, I guess the thread was moved for personal reasons. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

crazyivan1970
05-03-2005, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
Ah, thinking a little more on this, I guess the thread was moved for personal reasons. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Last thing i do on this forums is get personal Slick, don`t be silly please. I moved it by accident. After last update admins tool does funky stuff.

SlickStick
05-04-2005, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
Ah, thinking a little more on this, I guess the thread was moved for personal reasons. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Last thing i do on this forums is get personal Slick, don`t be silly please. I moved it by accident. After last update admins tool does funky stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Copy that. I'm glad to hear it, too. I didn't want to believe that it was personal, but I was just puzzled by the move.

Thanks for bringing it back. I know this is probably considered a minor thing, considering the things that 1C is currently working on, but it's just so dang annoying. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEBillfish
05-04-2005, 09:57 AM
A guess here........The reason you get the warning buzzer in the 109 is it is in a warning buzzer position...Like driving down the road with your car door open......In all others the reason you hear the continuous sound is the hydraulics are trying to force the flaps to a different position and continue to do so till they are either freed or the pump is stopped.

Both guesses, my advice naturally being....Don't jam your flaps http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Why mine are run by buttons...As I'd assume flaps levers had detents for their ideal conditions/positions....remove the detents you risk the wrath.

SlickStick
05-04-2005, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
A guess here........The reason you get the warning buzzer in the 109 is it is in a warning buzzer position...Like driving down the road with your car door open......In all others the reason you hear the continuous sound is the hydraulics are trying to force the flaps to a different position and continue to do so till they are either freed or the pump is stopped.

Both guesses, my advice naturally being....Don't jam your flaps http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Why mine are run by buttons...As I'd assume flaps levers had detents for their ideal conditions/positions....remove the detents you risk the wrath.

Relatively good stab at an explanation, but the hydraulics only work when activated from within the cockpit to raise or lower. Jamming them in an open position would just not allow them to move, but I find it unlikely that the hydraulic pump would keep pumping without pilot activation.

However, I could be wrong about that. The main thing is the sound of flaps moving stops once they've reached the selected position. Leaving them out and flying too fast jams them and then the sound comes back on. That's the part I find annoying.

Also, I agree that not jamming my flaps would be the ideal situation, but I'm sure it happens to everybody at least once in awhile. Some more than others because we like to turn faster. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEBillfish
05-04-2005, 11:08 AM
Ahh but the air pressure is trying to force them to a new position, hence applying backpressure to the pump as I doubt it detents possibly overcoming a check valve or causing the pressure to increase so much it "deadheads".

All just guesses, don't know plane systems but stuff I've learned from my husband and his work so tossing it out there.

SlickStick
05-04-2005, 11:53 AM
The only thing though, is that flaps stop making any noise once in a set position. The jamming brings the sound back.

Of course, I don't discount what you are saying. I'm just curious why it would stop and start again in your scenario.

Jatro13th
05-04-2005, 12:03 PM
What I know about this is that whenever my flaps jamm I wish had never been born. The sound is plain hideous!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

SlickStick
05-06-2005, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Jatro13th:
What I know about this is that whenever my flaps jamm I wish had never been born. The sound is plain hideous!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

And God help you if you're far from home base and have to fly or fight for awhile to get back. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jatro13th
05-06-2005, 02:47 PM
Isn't it though, that the horn sounds only when the gear is up? If you're far from home, just lower your gear and it stops. Especially if you've got someone following you, he can stop it for you (know what I mean http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif).

Blackjack174
05-09-2005, 01:52 AM
hmm, I wonder if it is (in reality) to actually ripp the flaps off...
Ingame the flaps jam at certain medium spped ranges (for the most aircrafts) , but why can you dive with very high speed and the **** things dont get forced up or just ripp of ?
Everything would be better than "ssssshhhhhhhh" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Abbuzze
05-09-2005, 06:32 AM
Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Do the F4F Wildcat! It's been my experience that if you are flying too fast with flaps deployed, they simply go back up. I'm not sure if this is a just a bug or an excellent design that I wish were on every other plane.

* _54th_Speeder *

This design was such excellent that pilots let this feature remove by their mechanics... If they went to fast while landing, the flaps retract, with the result of loosing lift and also increasing speed, cause of the missing drag.

The Idea is nice indeed, but in reality... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Honk Honk of the 109 just indicates that the flaps are down while the gear is up, modern planes have also such a system to avoid gear up landings. Not the only detail the outdated 109 shares with modern planes, the whole elevator surface was used for trim not only the movable part of this.

Jetbuff
05-09-2005, 10:54 AM
Why you would want to deploy a flaps at a speed that could jam them in the first place is a mystery to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Unless I'm off my rocker, at high speeds you're probably above corner velocity. And, above corner velocity you can't turn any tighter anyway due to airframe/pilot G-limits. Deploying flaps in such a scenario can only slow you down, not help you turn faster. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Choctaw111
05-09-2005, 03:06 PM
I do not mind hearing the buzzer warning on the 109. It is realistic and therefore should stay just the way it is. For those of you that say you have seen the message that your flaps have jammed just remember that not all of us have the messages turned on. THERE IS NOTHING MORE ANNOYING THAN FLYING AROUND AND SEEING MESSAGES ACROSS THE BOTTOM OF THE SCREEN!!!!!! I love to fly FULL REALISTIC with NO MESSAGES!! Wouldn't it be great if something happened to your AC IRL and a little message went across your instrument panel to tell you that your flaps are jammed or a cable snapped? But that is not the way it is. Messages are for rookies who are learning to fly. After you get the hang of it you should turn them off and learn how to really fly! I hope that I do not hear another person complaining that they saw the MESSAGE so the warning buzzer should shut off. THIS IS THE MOST REALISTIC WW2 COMBAT FLIGHT SIM OUT THERE AND I WANT TO KEEP IT THAT WAY AS I AM SURE MANY OTHERS DO ALSO!!!! Thanks for this great sim Oleg and keep up the good work!!!

Abbuzze
05-09-2005, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Why you would want to deploy a flaps at a speed that could jam them in the first place is a mystery to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


I will explain it, or better tring to repeat what I read about this automatic flaps...
The Pilots disliked them, why?
Just imagine, you are in final approach at a carrier, your speed is a bit high, but angle is ok and you will be able to rise your nose without stall and make perfect 3-point landing.
Now it happens, the flaps are rising automaticly.
Result: you are loosing lift, the angle of descent are increasing, also the stallspeed is higher now, rising up the nose will result a stall cause the missing lift of the flaps - I wouldnâ´t like to sit in a plane close to a carrierdeck with an engine that is throttled back in this situation...
Also the flaps are surly able to withstand even a higher speed, and if the mechanism is realy damdaged, you would have the possibility to fix it, but if you crashed at the carrier deck...

SlickStick
05-09-2005, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Why you would want to deploy a flaps at a speed that could jam them in the first place is a mystery to me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Unless I'm off my rocker, at high speeds you're probably above corner velocity. And, above corner velocity you can't turn any tighter anyway due to airframe/pilot G-limits. Deploying flaps in such a scenario can only slow you down, not help you turn faster. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

It's not from deploying at high speeds, Jet. It's from using at low speeds and sometimes forgetting them or every once in awhile forgetting to hit all steps after take-off.

Either way, the fact that the sound does not exist with flaps fully extended and doesn't happen until the flaps jam, is all the point I was bringing up.

As for Choctaw and his sense of righteous realism, there are those that know this is a game and play it as such. The best part of messages and other features is that you can turn them off to suit your individual pleasure. As for the rest of your babbling, YAWN. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I prefer the fact that if extended flaps don't make any noise in the sim, talking other than honking, then they shouldn't after they jam either. That is all.

SeaFireLIV
05-09-2005, 06:24 PM
Well I fly without any HUD messages, so I need the audible indication if the flaps do stick. Annoying to hear for a long time, but even more annoying if my flaps are stuck down and I have no idea until too late.

Also, if that`s how it was in reality then I`ll live with it - it`s a good way to mentally teach a pilot to avoid jamming his flaps. Jamming your flaps is always bad news any way as others have said. It should be avoided and it`s a sort of `penalty` if you don`t.

Still, I have wondered why I still hear the hiss even when I`m parked on the ground. Is that realistic?

EnGaurde
05-09-2005, 06:28 PM
Messages are for rookies who are learning to fly

this irritates me.

quite remarkable.

real? where is the vibration coming thru the airframe subtley telling you what the aircraft is doing? Wheres the real time feedback of radio comms with ground and comrades in the air?

where are the myriad of sounds coming from the engine coupled with changes in vibration forecasting a change in something that may soon become important? Where indeed is the sensation of flight????

there is such a staggering insulation from the seat of the pants feeling in simulations (obviously) that to thump your chest and declare Im Full Real! whilst writing off rookies as spoon fed is difficult to understand. Youre kidding yourself.

you need those messages. To fly without them is to ignore actual messages your aircraft would otherwise tell you. They fill in for the missing infinite feedback found in actual aircraft that cant possibly be modelled, ie the sudden slack feeling in roll control with cut controls. Does your stick show this? Granted, you cant roll now, but has your stick feedback changed? I think it would, IRL, so tell me how real that is.

You see the world thru a tiny viewport, due to the limits of technology. Its like flying an aircraft with blinkers on, squinting. Anyone whos flown can testify to this.

and heres a key point.... next time you get shot down, wounded or killed, best you reflect this condition as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

this approximates reality, but is so far removed from it to get all deadly serious about how hard core you are, is somewhat ridiculous.

SlickStick
05-09-2005, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Well I fly without any HUD messages, so I need the audible indication if the flaps do stick. Annoying to hear for a long time, but even more annoying if my flaps are stuck down and I have no idea until too late.

Also, if that`s how it was in reality then I`ll live with it - it`s a good way to mentally teach a pilot to avoid jamming his flaps. Jamming your flaps is always bad news any way.

Still, I have wondered why I still hear the hiss even when I`m parked on the ground. Is that realistic?

Exactly the point about the "flaps movement sound" coming back on after jamming and remain until death or refly.

Not using flaps, well, I'll just leave that to the simmers. As the thrill of AirQuake floats my plane for the moment, I'm content with my run at the "King of AirQuake" competition.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Will have to go FR soon, though, I'm not looking forward to it. It's different tactics, different flying, lotsa flying, and it just doesn't provide the same bang for the buck I like to see. I have fun out turning a guy, who is watching me out turn him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

However, it's just about the sound. If it is something wrong, then if they fix it, ok, if not, I'll adapt, as usual.

Choctaw111
05-10-2005, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by EnGaurde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Messages are for rookies who are learning to fly

this irritates me.

quite remarkable.

real? where is the vibration coming thru the airframe subtley telling you what the aircraft is doing? Wheres the real time feedback of radio comms with ground and comrades in the air?

where are the myriad of sounds coming from the engine coupled with changes in vibration forecasting a change in something that may soon become important? Where indeed is the sensation of flight????

there is such a staggering insulation from the seat of the pants feeling in simulations (obviously) that to thump your chest and declare Im Full Real! whilst writing off rookies as spoon fed is difficult to understand. Youre kidding yourself.

you need those messages. To fly without them is to ignore actual messages your aircraft would otherwise tell you. They fill in for the missing infinite feedback found in actual aircraft that cant possibly be modelled, ie the sudden slack feeling in roll control with cut controls. Does your stick show this? Granted, you cant roll now, but has your stick feedback changed? I think it would, IRL, so tell me how real that is.

You see the world thru a tiny viewport, due to the limits of technology. Its like flying an aircraft with blinkers on, squinting. Anyone whos flown can testify to this.

and heres a key point.... next time you get shot down, wounded or killed, best you reflect this condition as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

this approximates reality, but is so far removed from it to get all deadly serious about how hard core you are, is somewhat ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
After reading your post EnGuarde I feel that you are absolutely right! I guess that I never really thought about it that way. For anyone that I have offended with my last post I humbly apologize. Yes there are many factors in the sim that are not, or can not be modeled and messages will indeed give you that extra information that a pilot desperately needs that cannot be modeled in a sim at this time. Again Enguarde you are 100% correct. I still find it annoying seeing the messages across the screen but until we get some great new advancements in computer technology these will be necessary...

Jatro13th
05-11-2005, 10:17 AM
Guys, now that we are talking about realism and on-screen messages, something popped into my head that I long wanted to ask. Since the %^&$^*^% computer cannot give you the sensation of gravity and its acceleration every time you push or pull the stick (a fantastic sensation if you have done it for real!!!!!), isn't it logical that there should be a HUD G meter on the screen so that we know at what condition our plane is in? I mean, its difficult to do an unloaded dive to get better acceleration when you've got no indication. And as far as the enthusiasts of realism are concerned, I know it is a bugger to see all those messages, so can't we, at least, have some specs of dirt floating in the cockpit at 0 G? I think that the G sensation is very very VERY important, and it has been left out of the game completely!
I'm sorry if what I said is off the topic, but I didn't really know where to post, since I'm quite new to the forums!
Thanks for reading this ya all! S~! 13th HsqnJatro out

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-11-2005, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:

What is more funny is the flaps on a slider thing. you can make a spitfire (had only landing flaps) set the flaps at any angle. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Don't ya just love the X52 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif