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Fish6891
06-15-2005, 05:45 PM
We've been getting some loud opinions on the effectiveness of the .50cals lately and so I decided earlier today to do a little testing and recording in order to figure out just whats what, and then share my results :]

I sent 6 relatively short tracks to Anak of me flying around and testing the .50cals on WC under one of my aliases (AlphaQuintesson <--no longer an alias really :P) using the P51D and MustangMKIII

Anak will likely reply soon and provide the link.

Now so you guys dont waste your time. You know how when watching tracks there is a timer on the bottom right hand corner of the screen?

Well there are 2 tracks that are a little bit long before seeing any action, "3x.50calZoned" and "109zoned"

Fast forward 3x.50calZoned to minute 4:40 and then watch

Fast forward 109zoned to minute 7:00

The others you can just watch from the start.
ENJOY! :]

P.S. Due to lag, there are some tracks that show my shots missing their target when in fact they were hits. You'll still see the effects of my enemy recieving hits though (Smoke and such)

AnaK774
06-15-2005, 07:01 PM
http://www.suicidesquad.co.uk/anakonda/fishytracks.rar

tracks are there for while

HayateAce
06-15-2005, 07:24 PM
Gee,

Some dedicated luftcryers on a preemptive strike to keep 50 calibers worthless. How shocking. Luftwhiner LAME status rises to new levels.

http://www.willisms.com/archives/terorralert.gif

AnaK774
06-15-2005, 07:31 PM
You watched the tracks already? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Althought no mushroom clouds, they definately do bite

Fish6891
06-15-2005, 07:33 PM
We're Luftwhiners simply because we've put up tracks that may prove something other than your opinion?

Truly HayateAce, the biggest and loudest whiners on these forums are the whiners who whine about "Luftwhiners"

Shut it.

Badsight.
06-15-2005, 10:48 PM
when recording a NTRK , set your NETSPEED to LAN to get it filled with as much data as possible , makes for the most accurate NTRK your computer can make

oh and , HayateAcehole , STFU till your spoken too ! 1 ! !

http://img292.echo.cx/img292/4359/hayatenoob0de.jpg

ClnlSandersLite
06-15-2005, 10:51 PM
oh and , HayateAcehole , STFU till your spoken too ! 1 ! !

Dude! WTF???

PBNA-Boosher
06-15-2005, 10:57 PM
I fly US and the .50's are fine for me in 4.0. I just find what convergence works best for me per plane. No simpler than that.

Blackdog5555
06-15-2005, 11:19 PM
I usualy like to complain about 50s but They seem fine to me too. With a 5%-10% deflection go for an engine or cockpit. get in close .25 or less with a 250 convergence.

Mustang III is a bit weak but pilots complained about the 4 50s since usually one or two were jammed. Even with four working. If Im going to b**** its about DM. My F6F wing was blown off by an Oscars 7.7s...anyway..Cheers

Yog_Shoggoth
06-15-2005, 11:41 PM
I go for wing roots on deflection. Works for me. If you can use them 50's slice and dice. Not good for flaming, unless of course the target is a zeke.

Tiger27
06-15-2005, 11:49 PM
I noticed a few complaints from some of the allied flyers whereas all the LW fliers that test them seem to have no problem, could this be because those of us that have flown LW for a while are used to getting in close.
I notice the effectivness is not so great from the ridiculous distances some of the allieds used to shoot from, some had convergence set out to 700+m and are wondering why there not getting kills now.

FritzGryphon
06-15-2005, 11:56 PM
Nice shooting, Fish!

I could not be so patient as you are. More spray and pray (and miss).

heywooood
06-15-2005, 11:57 PM
nothing wrong with the .50's in 4.01

everyone needs to just take it outside.
taters says me (http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/taters.php)

Genie-
06-16-2005, 01:17 AM
Oget in close .25 or less with a 250 convergence.

.25 is close?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

FatBoyHK
06-16-2005, 01:48 AM
Fish, may be you are a little bit lagged behind in this forum, haha, see the ORR thread, we have already found out that 50cals is not the problem (well, may be not for everyone, so you thread is stil useful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), instead it is the DM of the 190 (or may be 109 too, but less likely) that may have been beefed up a little bit too much, especailly for defending against dead six shot. For angled shot, there is no problem at all, and the high chance of PK in this version makes things a lot easier.

I heard that you have tried to bring down a D9 who is runing away flying straight, but only be able to do so after landing a combined total of 400+ hit with GUARD, is it true? And there are many other similar incident from different pilots, even from some blue pilots that are at the receiving end.

Guard4891
06-16-2005, 02:08 AM
lol,Fish,u are pown0zed lagged. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gifPeople are already talking about the DM of 190s.

Btw are u still using 200m for convergence?I suggest u using 150m or shorter,cause u seem to fire at close range.

PS.The only thing impressed me in those tracks is the speed when u flying a P51.U were seldom faster than 400km/h IAS unless u were running for life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gifAnd quite often u were even slower than 250km/h.And those blue pilots were flying even slower.WTH was everybody doing?Some helicopter dogfight?

PPS.Those tracks are from 4.00,right?Personally I find the DM of 190 and 109 have been turned down a bit in 4.01.Although still unable to get the 190 leak fuel,I managed to set one 190's fuel tank on fire,and blow another 190's tail off by using .50cal.And it seems the MG151/20 is a littel weaker,cause I find less explosion in QMB.

LeadSpitter_
06-16-2005, 03:05 AM
notice all his tracks are under .10 range.

Thats the major thing that has been reduced they are not causing much damage at all unless under 10 distance, i can show you tracks of 109s taking over 500 strikes .20 .30 distance and 190s taking over 1000 air hits .20 .30 range.

But at .10 you can sieze thier engine or get a pk.

Go test it with static ac and the p38 just firing .50 cal which is the most accurate .50s in game, have a friend of your park next to the static ac so you can judge exact distance.

Oleg has never been accurate at all with browning .50 cal no us aircraft or payload positions. Nor has he been accurate in compressibility, stall speed, accelaration, climb, roll, dive and breakup speed of usn ac corsair and hellcat breaking up at 800kmph.

take the test you can see this with static oilbarrels, aaa and static ai aircraft it will not destroy them no matter how much you hit them unless it is .10 distance.

Fish has sent me these tracks earlier and you can see its all under .10 distance in these tracks.

look at gunstat how many hits ac are taking compair that to the thousands of real guncamera footage 100 yards to 500 yards not just one clip, and real combat reports which show rounds expended which were not all all strikes.

This has been changed from 3.04 making .50 cal even much weaker then they were in 3.04 and are now taking almost triple the ammount of hits at .20 distance.

There is no disputing this it is much worse now and .303s are even hitting harder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/yeagarcombatreport.jpg

head over to http://www.rareaviation.com and http://www.historicaviation.com and purchase many hours of guncamera, its not all kills also ac that do manage to eveade and get away.

also look at the distances the damage is being done many hundreds of different clips 300 meters away of .50 cal footage.

There is also many german clips with 20mm.

I dont know what it takes to prove oleg is completely wrong about this matter and i cannot believe it was allowed into the patch like this.

Lixma
06-16-2005, 03:54 AM
I had a fun time with the P-51's .50s last week.

I was in Warclouds with v4.00 and saw a couple of smoke trails in the distance. I go for a look and it turns out they're V1 bombs. Cool.

So I park my plane about 150 meters away and pump practically all my ammo into it. Nothing. A bunch of hit sprites flew past put I couldn't hurt it at all. Fed up, I decide to try the wing-tip thing. My approach is too fast and loose so I swing away slightly and try another one. Just at this point, Fatboy comes barreling in at around 500kph all guns blazing, knuckles white. He gets to within about 50 meters of it when it decides it's had enough and explodes taking him with it.

"What the **** was that ?"

I nearly pissed myself laughing.

Hristo_
06-16-2005, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by FartBoyHK:
instead it is the DM of the 190 (or may be 109 too, but less likely) that may have been beefed up a little bit too much, especailly for defending against dead six shot. For angled shot, there is no problem at all, and the high chance of PK in this version makes things a lot easier.

I heard that you have tried to bring down a D9 who is runing away flying straight, but only be able to do so after landing a combined total of 400+ hit with GUARD, is it true? And there are many other similar incident from different pilots, even from some blue pilots that are at the receiving end.

Heresay, no testing and general complaining about an armored bomberkiller being too tough.

Fish6891
06-16-2005, 04:40 AM
Look at the tracks FatBoy, all of my bandits were German AC....they didnt seem very tough to me :P
and yes, there was a case where Guard landed 100+ hits on a Dora ran out of ammo, asked me to finish it, and then I landed 350+ hits before the engine fired up.
Well for one thing the 190s wings were swiss cheese, I was close enough to see, and second, that was a freak incident, it doesnt happen often. Its just one of those rare moments that can occur when using any weapon, where for some reason it just takes a crazy amount to down an enemy. I've seen P51s take 8+ 108 hits, yet I don't think the 108 is too weak, nor the 51 too tough.

As for Leadspitters comments, it IS true that you seem to have to get closer than before in order for .50s to do decent damage. .20km and closer seems to work.

.10km is a little exaggerated :P

btw GUARD, a couple of those are 4.00m most are 4.01m, and while some people may believe the 190s DM is a problem, there are ALWAYS people complaining about the .50cals supposedly being completely inneffective. I'm simply trying to disprove that.

LeadSpitter_
06-16-2005, 05:12 AM
they should be doing that damage at 300-600 yards and have less shake and dispurtion then a lighter ac firing cannon.

The p51 pilots manual states 274 yards 250.5456 meters for most effective convergence and the p47 pilots manual states 350 yards 320.04 meters for best convergence.

Many used lower convergences, also many others used staggered convergence inner guns firing 350 outer guns 250.

MEGILE
06-16-2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Gee,

Some dedicated luftcryers on a preemptive strike to keep 50 calibers worthless. How shocking. Luftwhiner LAME status rises to new levels.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

dadada1
06-16-2005, 08:38 AM
Quoted by Leadspitter

"also look at the distances the damage is being done many hundreds of different clips 300 meters away of .50 cal footage".

What focal length lenses do US gun cameras use, I'm also assuming that the film format is 35mm. These things affect image size, so unless your sure of the above mentioned parameters how can you be sure of distance? Unless you know these things your observations are surely subjective.

Guard4891
06-16-2005, 09:23 AM
Fish,I agree that dora case was insane.That pilot was pretty lucky,huh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifOr maybe pretty unlucky.That poor man waited so long before the death finally came,I guess he was scared at first and bored later. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And I completely agree with u that people shall not take the rare cases like that too seriouly(that doesnt mean they can say that number 400+ was invented http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif).That case doesnt mean every dora in the game can or should take 400+ hits before it goes down.

FatBoyHK
06-16-2005, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by Lixma:
I had a fun time with the P-51's .50s last week.

I was in Warclouds with v4.00 and saw a couple of smoke trails in the distance. I go for a look and it turns out they're V1 bombs. Cool.

So I park my plane about 150 meters away and pump practically all my ammo into it. Nothing. A bunch of hit sprites flew past put I couldn't hurt it at all. Fed up, I decide to try the wing-tip thing. My approach is too fast and loose so I swing away slightly and try another one. Just at this point, Fatboy comes barreling in at around 500kph all guns blazing, knuckles white. He gets to within about 50 meters of it when it decides it's had enough and explodes taking him with it.

"What the **** was that ?"

I nearly pissed myself laughing.

lol it was the most funny thing I experienced for a long time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I didn't realize it is a V1 until I pressed the trigger, and spitsecond later, I fly through a fireball and I lose the entire tail section.... but I was alive!!! well, until I hit the ground http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

FatBoyHK
06-16-2005, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Fish6891:
Look at the tracks FatBoy, all of my bandits were German AC....they didnt seem very tough to me :P

Of course, you were able to attack from an angle, and most of the victims are 109s.... now show me the track of you attacking 190s from dead six. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

faustnik
06-16-2005, 10:18 AM
For an eye opener, try testing the UBS and the .50 M2 against the same targets. The P-39Q-10 and Yak-3 have similar setups for testing. The two weapons were very similar, yet in PF, the UBS is far more powerful.

Airmail109
06-16-2005, 10:38 AM
http://lightsout.onestop.net/idontknow.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Youve really let hell loose this time fish...n00b http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Fish6891
06-16-2005, 10:47 AM
FATBOY: PM me ur MSN and I'll send you a track of just that :P
Dead 6 190Anton, me in Mustang MKIII

AI-Male: What I've done is started a discussion with sme base evidence in order to make the discussion more meaningful and productive.
I wouldn't talk about mindlessly letting all hell loose if I were you :/

geetarman
06-16-2005, 10:47 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fish6891:
I was close enough to see, and second, that was a freak incident, it doesnt happen often. Its just one of those rare moments that can occur when using any weapon, where for some reason it just takes a crazy amount to down an enemy.

______________________________________________-

B.S. this is par for the course now for the 190. I mean, this is still a matter of debate? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Check the tracks Leadspitter posted. The 190's DM is a joke and should be changed.

Fish6891
06-16-2005, 10:53 AM
Geetar, if you PM me ur MSN I'll send you the same tracks I'm offering to send to FatBoy that show 190s being mutilated by .50cal online.

Its very rare for one to take as much ammo as GUARD and I punched into that D9. I literally yelled out while on comms "OMG, DIE!" while I was hosing him with .50cal, it was simply wild the amount he took before firing up. So far though, thats the only 190 I've had take an insane amount of ammo online since the new patches showed up.

JG27_Stacko
06-16-2005, 11:37 AM
Geetarman and all else who have someproblem in shooting down 190's

1) Leadspitter is hardly an unbiased view.

2) I have been blown up by hispano fire in a 190 in patch 4.00. The pilot who did it was PFS_Blackbird in a Spit. Never before this patch (either 4.0 or 4.01) did I ever (never ever)get blown up from gunfire in a 190. When I say blown up, I mean like the 108's do!! I just blew up from about half a dozen shells. Now i cant provide tracks but hell!! isn't a half-dozen witnesses good enough?

3) If you think the 190's so tough, get your *** into War-Couds and prove it! If you aint good at flying it, all the better, that way you'll definately get shot at, and then you'll see what happens when bullets start hitting it.


4) if you even saw the amount of times I got mauled in the 190 this last week you'd never ever call the .50cal undermoddeled or the 190 DM "uber". Sure I took a few hits on occasion and made it home, but the plane was a shambles - it was a minore miracle of piloting skill that I even kept it in the air.

5) look at some of these guys your flying against... They will fly anything into the ground rather than RTB. So you shoot a 190 and he keeps trying to fight, but minutes later when he stalls out, you say "man, he only crashed" but in reality that bird was prolly pulling so hard to one side and could no longer turn.

6) Oleg.. I implore you, grab your p-39(because we know you must of being born in one) and fly wing with me in a 190. You'll see these guys have nothing to moan about when you witness the destruction of the 190's I am flying! Just because they cant see a flame or a fuel leak they think that plane is undamaged.. They are foolish! very naive at the least

Dont change the 190's DM. It was a tough plane in RL. and now they wanna turn it into paper-mache like the 109!

Regards


Stax

BigKahuna_GS
06-16-2005, 12:06 PM
S!


This thread is getting too emotional-everybody needs to calm down. You might want to check out the testing Gibbage has done on the damage modeling of the FW190, P47 & F6F all known to be tough birds.

Thanks for posting the Yeager doc Lead. Yeager got (5) 109 kills in one sortie from gun ranges of 300-600yds. That is quite a distance and is much farther out than I shoot in AEP/PF. Yeager also expended only 587 rounds in getting these kills.

This is my opinon, the .50cals are effective most of the time in close but do lose much of their hitting power at longer ranges. And in long range I dont even mean the long range shots Yeager made at 300-600yds. Anything greater than .2 and hitting power drops fast.

The other thing I couldnt help but notice was Yeager talking about the G-suit and pulling 6-G's with no blackout while pulling lead pursuit and downing the 109 at 300yards.

I sent the 8th AF info on the G-suit deployment and usage to Oleg last year and he decided not to model it in the sim---large dissapointment and not historicaly accurate.


__

LStarosta
06-16-2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
For an eye opener, try testing the UBS and the .50 M2 against the same targets. The P-39Q-10 and Yak-3 have similar setups for testing. The two weapons were very similar, yet in PF, the UBS is far more powerful.

Ummm.. No. The UBS and M2 were NOT very similar. Please read your gun statistics and try again. Thank you.

Fish6891
06-16-2005, 12:14 PM
oy Geetarman, btw, what name do you fly on WC under? Never seen u on there but you've often referred to flying there, now I'm curious :]

faustnik
06-16-2005, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by LStarosta:

Ummm.. No. The UBS and M2 were NOT very similar. Please read your gun statistics and try again. Thank you.

Enlighten me smartass. I have seen all the charts and data.

RedDeth
06-16-2005, 01:17 PM
LStarosta is about 18 so he may not have the best info.

we shall see.

we all wait for LStarostas input

geetarman
06-16-2005, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by JG27_Stacko:
Geetarman and all else who have someproblem in shooting down 190's

1) Leadspitter is hardly an unbiased view.

2) I have been blown up by hispano fire in a 190 in patch 4.00. The pilot who did it was PFS_Blackbird in a Spit. Never before this patch (either 4.0 or 4.01) did I ever (never ever)get blown up from gunfire in a 190. When I say blown up, I mean like the 108's do!! I just blew up from about half a dozen shells. Now i cant provide tracks but hell!! isn't a half-dozen witnesses good enough?

3) If you think the 190's so tough, get your *** into War-Couds and prove it! If you aint good at flying it, all the better, that way you'll definately get shot at, and then you'll see what happens when bullets start hitting it.


4) if you even saw the amount of times I got mauled in the 190 this last week you'd never ever call the .50cal undermoddeled or the 190 DM "uber". Sure I took a few hits on occasion and made it home, but the plane was a shambles - it was a minore miracle of piloting skill that I even kept it in the air.

5) look at some of these guys your flying against... They will fly anything into the ground rather than RTB. So you shoot a 190 and he keeps trying to fight, but minutes later when he stalls out, you say "man, he only crashed" but in reality that bird was prolly pulling so hard to one side and could no longer turn.

6) Oleg.. I implore you, grab your p-39(because we know you must of being born in one) and fly wing with me in a 190. You'll see these guys have nothing to moan about when you witness the destruction of the 190's I am flying! Just because they cant see a flame or a fuel leak they think that plane is undamaged.. They are foolish! very naive at the least

Dont change the 190's DM. It was a tough plane in RL. and now they wanna turn it into paper-mache like the 109!

Regards


Stax

______________________________________________

1. Where is the bias in actual tracks posting his findings for all to see?

2. I would get 190's to lose large control surfaces, explode, etc. with accurate fire prior to this patch. Not now.

3. I do have my *** in WC's about every night tough guy. If you can't see the huge difference, frankly, you're blind.

4. Off point. If the 190's DM was correct and you were hit by the amount shells you were, at convergence, you should not have made it back to base.

5. Again, not on point.

6. Oleg, please, we all want accurate aircraft on both sides. Take a look and judge for yourself. Don't take the word of those that would like their favorite plane to become something it wasn't so they can improve their WC stats and beat their chests.

geetarman
06-16-2005, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Fish6891:
oy Geetarman, btw, what name do you fly on WC under? Never seen u on there but you've often referred to flying there, now I'm curious :]

Not this name fish. What's your point oh master of the 190? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LilHorse
06-16-2005, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by JG27_Stacko:
5) look at some of these guys your flying against... They will fly anything into the ground rather than RTB. So you shoot a 190 and he keeps trying to fight, but minutes later when he stalls out, you say "man, he only crashed" but in reality that bird was prolly pulling so hard to one side and could no longer turn.


Yeah, everybody wants stuff to blow up in their faces or watch their burst saw off a wing. Sure, there's plenty of guncam footage with .50s doing just that. But I'll bet there's a hundred times more footage of good bursts resulting in some debris and maybe some smoke. Some of these may have gone down, others may have RTB'd. Either way the American pilots didn't know. That was the nature of air combat.

It might take some time for your 190 opponent to crash as a result of the damage you've inflicted on him. Lots of ppl don't stay in the air long enough for guys they've shot up to go down.

stathem
06-16-2005, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by JG27_Stacko:
Geetarman and all else who have someproblem in shooting down 190's

2) I have been blown up by hispano fire in a 190 in patch 4.00. The pilot who did it was PFS_Blackbird in a Spit. Never before this patch (either 4.0 or 4.01) did I ever (never ever)get blown up from gunfire in a 190. When I say blown up, I mean like the 108's do!! I just blew up from about half a dozen shells. Now i cant provide tracks but hell!! isn't a half-dozen witnesses good enough?



Regards


Stax

But Stacko, Blackbird IS an exceptional shot - quite possibly the best I've ever come across.

Codex1971
06-17-2005, 05:38 AM
Theres nothing wrong with the .50 cal. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Warning 3.8MB!

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/codex1971/Tracks/quick0002.ntrk

JG27_Stacko
06-17-2005, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
But Stacko, Blackbird IS an exceptional shot - quite possibly the best I've ever come across.

Bah... then you've never come across WUAF_Hero or Fish? Blackbird isn't an exceptional shooter, per'se. He is without a doubt the best energy fighter I have crossed paths with, indeed he is the ONLY spitfire pilot that is worth considering as a threat. Although #401_MeanDog impressed me with his "circle of Death" the other night. Blackbirds consumate skill is almost without eqaul, but that skill gives him the opportunity to shoot and shoot often, rather than his 'ability to shoot' giving him the capacity to take shots that others would miss or not contemplate. There is a subtle difference, and Blackbirds skill is still awesome, just in a slightly different area than shooting.

OT: the "Circle of Death" was where MeanDog did prolly close to 30 (no exaggeration) horizontal turns not more than 30 mtrs of the deck in his spitfire. At one point I counted up to ten blues trying to shoot him down. Most got bored and left after just watching him go around and around and around, he killed at least 3 that were silly enough to try and follow him, and he prolly scared off twice as many more with some nice shots. Eventually though he was shot down, but lamented that he was just as happy that way because the dizziness could then subside.

S! MeanDog & Blackbird

Fish6891
06-17-2005, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by geetarman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fish6891:
oy Geetarman, btw, what name do you fly on WC under? Never seen u on there but you've often referred to flying there, now I'm curious :]

Not this name fish. What's your point oh master of the 190? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


No point, just curious as to who you are on WC :]

At least tell me this, you frequent WC TS? :P

n401MEAN_DOG
06-18-2005, 12:38 AM
i think you got me JG27_Stacko when i came out of the turn it was fun thats for shur

Zacast
06-18-2005, 01:25 AM
It is very obvious that the hitting power of the .50 cal is less than it was to be in 3.04.

Is that right or wrong? I'm not the one to answer that. Some of what gibbage has posted certainly looks interesting though in the other threads.

JG54_Arnie
06-18-2005, 01:30 AM
The 50 cal havent changed.. try shooting russian planes, or zero´s they burn as always. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Its the DM that changed, and the fact that hitting your target is a little bit harder in turns and manouvres.