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GazzaMataz
10-14-2004, 07:51 AM
Most other planes in FB have flaps that can be set from 'combat' to 'take off' to 'landing' settings. The thing I find odd though is the fact that the Hurricanes and Spitfires in the game have one setting - as in real life.

So what I don't understand is why did the RAF planes only have flaps up and flaps down? Cheapskate British engineering, easier to manufacture? RAF didn't think it made much difference? Was this the same for the Tempest and Typhoon (which I would love to see in the game as I imagine many others would).

Answers on a postcard...

ArjenKuifje
10-14-2004, 03:30 PM
Maybe design of Spitfire and Hurricane were so aerodynamically perfect there was no need to implement these spophisticated flaps?

Got now knowlegde of Tempest/Typhoon, can add Gladiator.. same issue. (try to take off in a Gladiator from a frozen lake... won't work .. only if you use autopilot...)

Arm_slinger
10-14-2004, 03:34 PM
Not cheap skate british enginnering at all. I'll let you know i resent that comment as well.

I think it might be to do with the highlift the wings offer. Rather than give even more lift with flaps, the one setting is used so that it slows the a/c down and thus removes the lift. You may have noticed that the flaps hang straight down. This is for the spit in real life, the hurri had different flap settings i think

VW-IceFire
10-14-2004, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GazzaMataz:
Most other planes in FB have flaps that can be set from 'combat' to 'take off' to 'landing' settings. The thing I find odd though is the fact that the Hurricanes and Spitfires in the game have one setting - as in real life.

So what I don't understand is why did the RAF planes only have flaps up and flaps down? Cheapskate British engineering, easier to manufacture? RAF didn't think it made much difference? Was this the same for the Tempest and Typhoon (which I would love to see in the game as I imagine many others would).

Answers on a postcard... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually...part of the answer lies in the fact that not all aircraft had combat flaps...even amongst ones in the game that have them modeled.

So the Spits and Hurricanes are more correct. Although I understand the Hurricane Mk II had more flap positions than is modeled in FB.

Nonetheless...Spitfires didn't need much in the way of combat flaps. You'll notice that some aircraft at airshows takeoff with flaps...none of the Spitfires do.

WTE_Galway
10-14-2004, 05:51 PM
there are four types of flap

plain, slotted, fowler and split:

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Evolution_of_Technology/High_Lift_Devices/Tech6G3.htm

there are variants on this such as the multi-slotted flaps commonly seen on heavies like the 747

the spitfire has a split flap .. this is an effective arrangement but is somewhat unfashionable in modern aircraft

Like the plain flap the split flap increases the lift of a wing, but at the same time, greatly increase the drag. For practical purposes split flaps are of value only in approach and landing. They should not normally be employed for take-off because the extra drag reduces acceleration.

Basically the extra lift and increased drag of the split flap has the following effect:

- drag decelerates the aircraft
- extra lift means the stall speed with flaps extended is slower
- extra lift means at any given speed the nose of the aircraft needs to be pushed down compared to a no-flap scenario

this means with flaps the aircraft approaches slower and because of the nose down attitude visibility is improved

VW-IceFire
10-14-2004, 10:08 PM
Not sure...but it looks like the Tempest V has the same sort of flaps as the Spitfire.

k5054
10-15-2004, 02:33 AM
When Spitfires took off from carriers to fly to Malta, they wanted take-off flap. The solution was to put the flaps down and raise them (on the ground) with a wooden wedge inserted to achieve 15 degrees or so of flap. After takeoff and when clear of the ship they lowered the flaps, the wood fell out (there was nothing holding it but the flaps themselves). At least one spit Vc, suffering fuel feed problems with the aux tank, landed back on the ship, with no hook. USS Wasp, I think.
The lack of the wooden wedge feature is completely ruining my enjoyment of the whole series of sims and I not only won't buy PF but I'll want my money back for all the flight sims I've ever bought whether from 1c or not. Immediately.

ploughman
10-15-2004, 04:01 AM
I don't think it was the USS Wasp, t'was HMS Eagle I think.

keithb77
10-15-2004, 05:50 AM
The Pilots Notes for the Seafire I & III actually document the use of wooden blocks in the flaps for take-off!
Cheers,
Keith

Zyzbot
10-15-2004, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
I don't think it was the USS Wasp, t'was HMS Eagle I think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears to be both:


"Having landed her torpedo planes and dive bombers, Wasp loaded 47 Supermarine Spitfire Mk. V fighter planes at the King George Dock, Glasgow, on 13 April 1942, before she departed the Clyde estuary on the 14th. Her screen consisted of Force "W" of the Home Fleet €" a group that included the battlecruiser HMS Renown and antiaircraft cruisers HMS Cairo and HMS Charbydis. USS Madison (DD-425) and USS Lang (DD-399) also served in Wasp's screen.


Wasp and her consorts passed through the Straits of Gibraltar under cover of the pre-dawn darkness on 19 April, avoiding the possibility of being discovered by Spanish or Axis agents. At 0400 on 20 April, Wasp spotted 11 Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat fighters on her deck and quickly launched them to form a combat air patrol (CAP) over Force "W".


Meanwhile, the Spitfires were warming up their engines in the hangar deck spaces below. With the Wildcats patrolling overhead, the Spitfires were brought up singly on the after elevator, spotted for launch, and then given the go-ahead to take off. One by one, they roared down the deck and over the forward rounddown, until each Spitfire was aloft and winging toward Malta.


When the launch was complete, Wasp retired toward England, having safely delivered her charges. Unfortunately, those Spitfires, which flew in to augment the dwindling numbers of Gladiator and Hurricane fighters, were tracked by efficient Axis intelligence and their arrival pinpointed. The unfortunate Spitfires were decimated by heavy German air raids which caught many planes on the ground.


As a result, it looked as if the acute situation required a second ferry run to Malta. Accordingly, Prime Minister Winston Churchill, fearing that Malta would be "pounded to bits," asked President Roosevelt to allow Wasp to have "another good sting." Roosevelt responded in the affirmative. Rising to the occasion, Wasp loaded another contingent of Spitfire Vs and sailed for the Mediterranean on 3 May 1942. Again, especially vigilant for submarines, Wasp proceeded unmolested. This time, the British aircraft carrier HMS Eagle accompanied Wasp, and she, too, carried a contingent of Spitfires bound for the "unsinkable aircraft carrier," Malta. "

ploughman
10-15-2004, 08:04 AM
Wasp 1st. Thanks for the info.

WTE_Wombat
10-15-2004, 04:02 PM
First of all you can read all about the wooden wedges etc in:

"They gave me a Seafire" by Commander R Mike Crosley, DSC RN
Wrens Park Publishing 1986
ISBN 0905 778 68 5

Its a great read about the Royal Navy's Pacific Fleet experiences and very relevant to Pacific Fighters if you want to know all about the trials of flying Hurricanes and Seafires off the small British Carriers and how unsuitable British Carriers were for operations in the Pacific.


As for flying the Spitfire online, those lucky enough to have one of those fancy throttles that have one or more wheels on them can assign the flaps to a wheel and just dial in as much or as little flap as they want!

My friend has one and swears by it. Says he just dials in a little flap in a Spitfire (and yes they do move visually) and says that it corners so tightly its unbelievable.

wayno7777
10-15-2004, 09:52 PM
In game for the Hurri if you want take-off flaps just toggle auto-pilot on , then off. To raise them, you must hit lower them first then quickly raise them. Don't know if this also works w/ the Spit.

GazzaMataz
10-18-2004, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Although I understand the Hurricane Mk II had more flap positions than is modeled in FB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was watching a program last night which had a close up of a Hurricane Mk IIb (12 .303s), and I noticed the flaps in what appeared as take-off position not the usual landing (fully down) position. So they obviously haven't been modeled in FB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Salfordian
10-18-2004, 09:30 AM
The difference between the flap angle of the spitfire and hurricane might be because the designers increased the flap angle on the spitfire following flight testing, as it was found that the aircraft had difficulty in losing enough speed ready for landing with the original flap settings.

VW-IceFire
10-18-2004, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GazzaMataz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Although I understand the Hurricane Mk II had more flap positions than is modeled in FB. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was watching a program last night which had a close up of a Hurricane Mk IIb (12 .303s), and I noticed the flaps in what appeared as take-off position not the usual landing (fully down) position. So they obviously haven't been modeled in FB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct...this is a known issue. But has not been corrected. Really doesn't make too much difference I think anyways. Hurricane II does quite well on its own.

Bearcat99
10-18-2004, 10:00 AM
The solution is to put your flaps on a slider.

Zooly235
10-18-2004, 03:18 PM
so there are no incremental settings using the keyboard?

Taylortony
10-18-2004, 05:07 PM
I would say 2 things about the flaps on a spit, one they are cunningly designed so when the plane is flying slowly on approach they drop over the rear of the radiator cowl outlets and blank the airflow off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif... and 2 the ones in the game are modelled wrong, they operate on air and actually bang in and out when selected in under i would say 1/2 a second on the ground, none of this gradual dropping, i could probably film it for you if wanted but it will be a short film
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGozr
10-19-2004, 02:50 AM
It's weird the spit is nice , good looking but something make me don't want to fly on it...

RAF238thKnight
10-19-2004, 03:54 AM
Just found this tad bit of information and would like to pass it on on the hurricane MKII series. This plane had stage flaps however once speed increased past deploy point the mechanics were not strong enough to hold them in that postition. They would just revert back to their normal position do to air flow over the wings. This I heard is not modeled in the game.

Knight

Philipscdrw
10-19-2004, 04:54 AM
That would be better than just having them jam in the down position.

Alex_Voicu
10-19-2004, 05:00 AM
Don't know about the Spitfire and Hurricane, but for the Tempest the pilot was able to set the flaps at any desired angle, between 0 and 80 degrees.