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ZHorkmeister
08-04-2004, 08:57 PM
Sirrus & Achenar .... HOW did they do the things they did .... given the fact they were young ( I'm assuming early 20's ? ).... given the fact they could not write ages ( and therefore were NOT all powerful enough to affect the weather or the lives of the people they " ruled " ) .... given the fact they linked to worlds within Atrus' Myst Island library that ALREADY HAD PEOPLE inhabiting those worlds.....

Sirrus was JUST ONE person .... Achenar was JUST ONE person ..... and we're to believe they were these murdering - pillaging - psychopaths who ruled people?? How does one " rule " a civilization if one DOES NOT possess any real power -- power to adversely affect the lives of the people they ruled??

I remember MYST -- 4 ages : each age with a Sirrus room and an Achenar room -- the two brothers must have had some sick perverted attraction to one another if they built their shrines and bedrooms right next to one another!!

If Sirrus truly hated Achenar -- and vice versa -- you would THINK the two would build their shrines and bed chambers AS FAR APART from one another as they could !! Wherever Sirrus' shrine & bedroom was -- Achenar's was right close by....

You gotta wonder just how " attracted " they were to each other......

But my main quandry stands -- how in the hang could Sirrus & Achenar have done ALL THOSE baddy things IF THEY WERE JUST TWO SPOILED BRATS ?? WHERE WAS THEIR " POWER " ??

Any answers for me ?? JUST BRETT ?? Hehehehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ZH http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ZHorkmeister
08-04-2004, 08:57 PM
Sirrus & Achenar .... HOW did they do the things they did .... given the fact they were young ( I'm assuming early 20's ? ).... given the fact they could not write ages ( and therefore were NOT all powerful enough to affect the weather or the lives of the people they " ruled " ) .... given the fact they linked to worlds within Atrus' Myst Island library that ALREADY HAD PEOPLE inhabiting those worlds.....

Sirrus was JUST ONE person .... Achenar was JUST ONE person ..... and we're to believe they were these murdering - pillaging - psychopaths who ruled people?? How does one " rule " a civilization if one DOES NOT possess any real power -- power to adversely affect the lives of the people they ruled??

I remember MYST -- 4 ages : each age with a Sirrus room and an Achenar room -- the two brothers must have had some sick perverted attraction to one another if they built their shrines and bedrooms right next to one another!!

If Sirrus truly hated Achenar -- and vice versa -- you would THINK the two would build their shrines and bed chambers AS FAR APART from one another as they could !! Wherever Sirrus' shrine & bedroom was -- Achenar's was right close by....

You gotta wonder just how " attracted " they were to each other......

But my main quandry stands -- how in the hang could Sirrus & Achenar have done ALL THOSE baddy things IF THEY WERE JUST TWO SPOILED BRATS ?? WHERE WAS THEIR " POWER " ??

Any answers for me ?? JUST BRETT ?? Hehehehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ZH http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GallifreyLady
08-04-2004, 11:08 PM
Okay, here I go... Sirrus himself said that after he and Achenar came of age, they had unbridled, unchecked access to the Myst Ages, while Atrus and Catherine just prior to the events on Myst were too busy in Rime trying to catch a glimpse of Riven and of Gehn.

As to how they alone had the power to ruin entire worlds... It seems that any civilzations that lived in Atrus' Ages were rather primitive and simplistic in nature. The boys didn't know the Art, but I'm sure to these civilizations the mere sight of people appearing out of thin air (linking) was enough for them to be convinced that they were gods or powerful magicians. Atrus himself in the Channelwood journal said that the monkeys treated him like a god. Plus, the technology that the brothers had access to, like Achenar's hologram in Stoneship, would appear magical as well.

Even though they are not gods, Sirrus and Achenar are far from being mere spoiled brats who couldn't stand each other. I believe it's much more complicated than that. Both inherited Atrus' intelligence, so they aren't stupid. Sirrus is very manipulative, with a silver tongue (an inheritance from Grandpa Gehn, who almost convinced ME that he wasn't a cold-hearted snake, and I saw the bad Riven endings first!). Sirrus just exudes authority. He's the kind of man who would stab you in the back with his nice curved Channelwood dagger if he had to, but he doesn't really enjoy it (your blood would stain the nice carpeting) and would rarely have to resort to violence himself. That's what Achenar is for. Achenar is a sadistic monster who takes great pleasure in torturing and murdering others.

In short, take a simplistic society, add in two men who play as cruel gods and have the magic tricks to back up their claims, one taking every material possession that he can get his greedy hands on and threatening those who would dare to question his actions by feeding them to his brother, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Since Narayan, their first Age that they ravaged by starting a civil war, they've had a professional relationship in subjugating Ages--a twisted kind of brotherly love. Sirrus was the brains and Achenar was the brawn. However, over the years, that relationship began to deteriorate. Achenar hated Sirrus' greed and began to rebel. The note in Sirrus' cache in Mechanical says as much. He began to undermine Sirrus' authority. I'm sure that Sirrus couldn't bear that, but was afraid of Achenar--the pitbull that was out of control. Sirrus decided that it was time for Achenar to go, and tried to frame Achenar alone by going to Atrus with evidence of what he had done. In Achenar's journal in the Revelation trailer, he mentions a truce between them, which neither one had any intention of following. They'd probably kill each other if they ever met again--the only thing that unites them now is their hatred of Atrus and the Stranger.

Does my little essay here help at all? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Arnium
08-05-2004, 04:57 AM
Hitler, Ghandi, Hirhito, Ghengis Khan; one man can do a lot. For good or for evil. As far as the story line goes, I doubt that Sirrus and Achenar worked alone. As Gehn did in Riven, I suspect that they illicited the aid of native individuals who were either duped by their cloak of deity or drawn to their aura of power.

ZHorkmeister
08-06-2004, 07:43 PM
Thanks GallifreyLady .... I like your theory of the sick perverted relationship between the two brothers ..... but uhhhhh ... WHY did they have their shrines and bedrooms built so close to one another?? Convenience??

Interesting theory of Achenar being the BRAWN of the two brothers ---- I just thought he was always the more sick & preverted of the two....

Good thinking though -- I like your theory http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ZH http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Eat_My_Shortz
08-06-2004, 09:00 PM
Their bedrooms were built a lot longer ago, by Atrus, when the boys were innocent.
What shrines are you referring to? The "Throne Rooms" on Mechanical? I suppose they build those rooms when they were working together.
Aside from that theres just the bedrooms on Stoneship/Channelwood.

And we do see Sirrus and Achenar battling in the trailer. Sounds cool!

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

Loki5654
08-22-2004, 04:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GallifreyLady:

Does my little essay here help at all? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif

Or, more appropriately, I'm with insightfully informative.

I'm really fascinated by the whole Sirrus/Achenar duality, brain & brawn, logic & emotion, ego & id, etc. Combine Sirrus' schemes with Achenar's forcefulness and add in Atrus' "technology" with a sprinkling of D'ni "magic" bake for 45 minutes at 350 degrees and you get a tasty cake capable of dominating several Ages.

Loki5654

Proud believer in small, unobtrusive signatures.

Scythephantasm
08-23-2004, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loki5654:
Combine Sirrus' schemes with Achenar's forcefulness and add in Atrus' "technology" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(not to get off topic, but . . .)

One thing that I always wondered about was Atrus' technology. He was locked out of D'ni (except for the K'veer doungeon) for the entire time he had his sons, and had spent most of his time in D'ni running around fetching books for Ghen and aiding Ghen in his studies of ages (if I recall correctly, which is never a given for me . . . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif). He didn't have time to study the D'ni technology nor grab any when he was thrown in the doungeon. So how'd he get all this equipment?

Just a question . . .

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I am Doctor Doom-fist! Tremble in my mighty presence! Fear my- *bonk* ow! . . . stupid lamp . . .

Loki5654
08-24-2004, 02:30 AM
That's why I referred to them as "Atrus' technology" and not as "D'ni technology". I've always seen Atrus as a Writer and part-time Tinkerer. The devices he creates are (presumably) his own creations, augmented by the principles he gleaned from his D'ni studies. Just my opinion.

Loki5654

Proud believer in small, unobtrusive signatures.

Scythephantasm
08-24-2004, 06:58 PM
Atrus sure was clever! After playing through Myst and Exile, you know how much he made! Wow

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I am Doctor Doom-fist! Tremble in my mighty presence! Fear my- *bonk* ow! . . . stupid lamp . . .

Stedmister
08-24-2004, 10:05 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loki5654:
Combine Sirrus' schemes with Achenar's forcefulness and add in Atrus' "technology" with a sprinkling of D'ni "magic" bake for 45 minutes at 350 degrees and you get a tasty cake capable of dominating several Ages.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmmmmm. Ages cake!!!

Eat_My_Shortz
08-25-2004, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One thing that I always wondered about was Atrus' technology.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think Atrus' technology was not D'ni.

One thing that I always wondered about was how Atrus got all the books!!! As you said, he was locked in that little room. We know that only D'ni housed books - there were none on Riven or Gehn would have been able to write his way out. Therefore, during the time between when Atrus was imprisoned (During Book Of Atrus) up to the time he escaped (During Book of D'ni - several years after Riven), he had access only to: K'veer (little prison room), Riven and Myst, and the other ages he wrote.
So where'd the books come from?

_______________________________________________
I touch them... and they are real... (http://plasma.cyanworlds.com)
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JustBrett
08-25-2004, 02:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eat_My_Shortz:
So where'd the books come from?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've been wondering about that for a long time.

According to BoA, Gehn had a stock of blank Books that were scavenged from D'ni and stored on Riven. Catherine and Atrus stole those when they escaped, so Atrus had some to start with. But, there couldn't possibly have been enough of them to write all of the Ages and linking Books that Atrus wrote while living in Myst. For example, Narayan and the Learning Ages alone required a minimum of 5 Descriptive Books and 12 Linking Books.

My guess is that Atrus must have written an Age that, like Riven, had the proper trees and beetles needed to make Paper and Ink. But, unlike Gehn, he was able to figure out the proper techniques for making his own Books and Ink.

However, even if Gehn had had a blank Book, he couldn't have "written his way out" of Riven back to D'ni. He could only have written his way to a new Age, like his 233rd Age.

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rorschachx
09-04-2004, 09:43 PM
brett is correect ghen had access to linking books but they wouldn't work without power.

his problem was his missunderstanding of the art. He couldn't write a linking book to k'veer because he dosn't know the correct phrases to create it. He could pressumably try to describe it to his best knowledge but one mistake and he wouldn't know where he would end up.

Just imagine poor atrus learning the art from a man who can't understand it either.......Its like learning to read from a first grader when your 15 already.

_________________________
What do you see....

DudeMiester
09-04-2004, 09:54 PM
He seems to have a done a pretty darn good job of it though, considering the circumstances.

Forums are the Opiate of the Masses

rorschachx
09-04-2004, 10:07 PM
read the book of atrus and see what kind of "job" he did.

_________________________
What do you see....

KamronShepard
09-09-2004, 07:39 PM
Rorschachx, the main reason Gehn couldn't Write a Linking Book to K'veer was because he wasn't in the Age of D'ni. To write a Linking Book, you must be at the place you wish to link to.

rorschachx
09-09-2004, 07:43 PM
I don't believe thats true because atrus wrote linking books to haven and spire without being in them.........he couldn't have otherwise he would be trapped in them.

_________________________
What do you see....

JustBrett
09-09-2004, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rorschachx:
I don't believe thats true because atrus wrote linking books to haven and spire without being in them.........he couldn't have otherwise he would be trapped in them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I suggest you read the Linking FAQ (http://www.dnidesk.com/linkingfaq.html) at the D'ni Desk Reference site. This is based directly on information provided by Richard Watson (aka "RAWA"), the official D'ni historian at Cyan.

Linking Books must be written in the Age to which they link. I consider it a serious mistake by Team Rev that Atrus's Haven journal implies that he wrote those links while outside those Ages. (Some posters on the Myst Obsession boards have claimed that anyone who understands linking knows that Atrus really meant that he'd have to go back to those Ages and write the links, so it isn't really a mistake. I don't buy that line of reasoning at all!)

Atrus could have written the links while in the Ages without being trapped. For example, all he had to do in Haven was to write the Linking Book before swimming out to the middle of the lake to return to Myst Island while ensuring that the Myst Linking Book was destroyed. Or, he could have gone back later with another Myst Book, written the link, and swum in the lake a second time to destroy the second Myst Book.

But, the second option seems like a big waste. It's more likely that he wrote the Linking Book when he visited Haven the first time, because that's what he was trained to do. BoA and BoT make it clear that Gehn taught Atrus to follow the normal practice of D'ni Writers, which was to always take a blank Linking Book along on the first visit to a new Age, and create a link before returning home.

I complained about this mistake a few weeks ago, and I hope that Team Rev fixed it for the final release. But, I'm afraid they probably didn't, because they would have had to go back and re-record all the narration for the journal in all the languages. I doubt there was time to do that in the rush to get the game finished.

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*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

KamronShepard
09-09-2004, 09:24 PM
Thank you Brett. I know i've read that Linking Books must be written in the Age they link to multiple times, but could find no reference anywhere. You found it for me.

rorschachx
09-10-2004, 10:18 PM
"I" don't think thats the whole story brett.

i seem to remember rawa also saying somewhere( can't remember the source) that knowing anything about the describtive book or being in the age isn't necessary. He stated that you only needed to visit the age. He also said that the writer of the books was mistaken on that fact. Sorry i can't back that up with RAWA's words but thats "my" belief on the subject.

Well now that i reread his statement on your link i realize that i was mistaken. My apologies for this post. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

_________________________
What do you see....

[This message was edited by rorschachx on Fri September 10 2004 at 10:15 PM.]

KamronShepard
09-10-2004, 10:59 PM
RAWA Quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No. Linking Books are in no way connected to the Age you are leaving, only to the Age they were written in. You can write a Linking Book in Myst, then take it to any Age, and it will always lead back to Myst. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My reference (http://www.dnidesk.com/rawalink98.html)