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LeadSpitter_
06-29-2004, 05:17 AM
I was recently watching the documentary on the panzer and t32.

They showed alot of stuka footage flipping t32s up in the air which looked over 20 feet in the air. The bomb was not i direct hit either it go me thinking of how accurate the bomb strenght is.

Many times bombing with the p51 slightly missing a tank the bomb crator is halfway under the tank and the other within a couple feet of it.

Are bombs severly undermodeled? Look at the yak7b you can drop the ptabs while parked and no damage will happen to you aircraft. Same with the p11c's bombs and a few others you can drop while parked still and then take off fine.

I noticed the p38 rockets cannot destoy factories and other small buildings. I have seen many videos of corsairs p38s and p51s in japan strafing factories with rockets blowing them up. Comments welcome http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Tue June 29 2004 at 08:50 AM.]

LeadSpitter_
06-29-2004, 05:17 AM
I was recently watching the documentary on the panzer and t32.

They showed alot of stuka footage flipping t32s up in the air which looked over 20 feet in the air. The bomb was not i direct hit either it go me thinking of how accurate the bomb strenght is.

Many times bombing with the p51 slightly missing a tank the bomb crator is halfway under the tank and the other within a couple feet of it.

Are bombs severly undermodeled? Look at the yak7b you can drop the ptabs while parked and no damage will happen to you aircraft. Same with the p11c's bombs and a few others you can drop while parked still and then take off fine.

I noticed the p38 rockets cannot destoy factories and other small buildings. I have seen many videos of corsairs p38s and p51s in japan strafing factories with rockets blowing them up. Comments welcome http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Tue June 29 2004 at 08:50 AM.]

bazzaah2
06-29-2004, 05:31 AM
often wondered exactly the same thing.

unless you get pretty much direct hits you can forget bomb damage to tanks, though columns go bang very nicely.

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

SeaFireLIV
06-29-2004, 05:44 AM
I agree that bombs do not seem to have the damage ability or even enough of a damage radius to have an effect on tanks and other military weapons. Trucks go up easy enough and I don`t want tanks that weak, but artillery, etc SHOULD be badly affected by close hits (stunned, killed humans), it doesn`t necessarily have to outrightly destroy the object itself.

Leadspitter, where do you view these footage? Some of them sound amazing - T32s being flipped into the air?

edit: ahh, just reread: A documentary, not seen online... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SeaFireLIV...

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Zayets
06-29-2004, 06:04 AM
To be honest I have noticed this since IL2 days on the P11. I was using it as training platform and noticed that those 2 PUW stuff have practically no effect over the machines,nor to the russian steppe.So , I have tried to bomb a pile of fuel trucks.Same result http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I was asking myself what's the reason for these and quit playing with them,took IL2 instead.Here was better,but 4x50's did not do such a huge amount of carnage on a column for example and I was hitting preciselly at the back and front of the column.German bombs up to the new ordinance we have in He111,Stuka,Bf110 were also weak,a whole row of bombs along a line of parking aircraft destroyed only 15-25% of them when I was doing a bomb run with the He111-H2. As for stuka,I consider myself lucky if I manage to kill a tank with the 250 boy.
But,yeah,that's how is done, and now I used with it.Can you imagine the horror if they were doing the bombs exactly as in RL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
This it will be a thread I will gladly watch http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Not like this is a bomb whine,but is first time I see someone saying that about the bombs.
PShttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gifut of curiosity,HVARS desintegrates a Me323.Best early plane to down the Mamooth is the LaGG-3 with 8 rockets.Takes 4 of them per giant.You will destroy its tail if you aim correctly.Don't wast bullets on it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zayets out

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Slush69
06-29-2004, 06:36 AM
A T-32? You sure? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway, a nearby miss with a HE bomb (be it airborne or an artillery shell), shouldn't be able to penetrate the armour of a tank.

cheers/slush

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WWSensei
06-29-2004, 06:37 AM
They are not only undermodelled but they behave differently offline versus online. Offline a near miss (<30m) with an SC-500 can destroy 3 out of 4 tanks in a diamond formation. Online I can hit dead center of the formation and maybe get one.

DeBaer.534
06-29-2004, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
Anyway, a nearby miss with a HE bomb (be it airborne or an artillery shell), shouldn't be able to penetrate the armour of a tank.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but the bombs blast will do ugly things to the crewmembers of the tank, a tank is not airtight.

Slush69
06-29-2004, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeBaer.534:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
Anyway, a nearby miss with a HE bomb (be it airborne or an artillery shell), shouldn't be able to penetrate the armour of a tank.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but the bombs blast will do ugly things to the crewmembers of the tank, a tank is not airtight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, it's irrelevant. They wouldn't show up as destroyed tanks in FB then. Second of all, it's wrong.

A strong enough blast would topple the tank, before enough air is pushed fast enough through the slits to endanger the personnel in any way.

A nearby KABOOOUM! will rattle the crew and make them half-deaf, but kill them or harm them? Nah.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif

DeBaer.534
06-29-2004, 07:31 AM
i've read other things, on other (historic) forums...
and its not irrelevant, with such a plain damage model on the ground object you could even show up these tanks as destroyed.

SUPERAEREO
06-29-2004, 07:46 AM
Not sure because I practically never use bombs online, but offline a 500kg bomb destroys both Panzers and T-34's with relative ease.

Me.323 Gigants: I remember shooting them down with the P-39's 37mm cannon, no need for rockets...

S!



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bazzaah2
06-29-2004, 07:57 AM
hope your bomb damage wasn't recent.

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GreyBeast
06-29-2004, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:

...actually one 120mm mortar landed 5m from my house, and I'm only sorry that I didn't take picture of it's effect, another 88mm mortar actually hit frontage of my house-made from bricks---it made hole 1,25x1,5m...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

whoa, marten, have you ever thought of moving?

DeBaer.534
06-29-2004, 08:16 AM
whoa, that would scare the hell outta me atomic_marten!
who does it and do they pay for it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
06-29-2004, 09:20 AM
thanks to LeosK for hosting the clip I took the time to capture. So plz comment on the clip compaired to online bombstrenght effectiveness

http://www.leosk.org/tiedostot/stuka.wmv

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Tue June 29 2004 at 08:59 AM.]

Blutarski2004
06-29-2004, 10:12 AM
Ring's Prodocs site provided the released chemical energy in joules for several types of aerial bombs. Perhaps one of our resident physicists can do the math with respect to the likelihood of a given bomb overturning a 25-30t tank.

BLUTARSKI

SeaFireLIV
06-29-2004, 11:03 AM
Thnx, Leadspitter. Much appreciated.

Now i`ve seen this, I have my doubts about the films authenticity. I`m not saying the Stukas or tanks aren`t real, but for example:

One tank next to another gets blown up and goes maybe 5 - 10 ft into the air, no problem with that, but if a camera was really able to get THAT close to take that shot his camera would surely be thrown to the ground just from the ground shake alone! But it doesn`t even move! Also, consider the Cameraman`s position in relation to the shot... He`d have to be sitting in the middle of the battlefield under heavy fire just to get that! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif A lot of those clips look like set-up propaganda jobs to me.

There`s no way i can base that on real bombing warfare. Some of the more distant footage does look real, but then it`s very hard to see what`s been blown up - as expected.

I still believe though that FB`s bomb blast and its radius are not strong enough in the sim.

SeaFireLIV...

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Zayets
06-29-2004, 11:35 AM
Hmmm,
I think that even then,zoom was ubiquitous as it is today.I have been "close" to TNT explosions (small charges cca 200 gr) and is possible,distance was 50 m. The fact that there was no shake pretty much confirm my theory that is a zoomed in footage.At least that's what I believe.

Zayets out

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LeadSpitter_
06-29-2004, 11:36 AM
what a waste of my time, Thats actual footage from the soviet archieves

If you see the first tank which gets hit direct turrent it doesnt get throw up in the air, but the second one where the bomb falls to the side of it gets thrown up in the air. I seen other footage of kursk which shows similiar situations, Tanks being flipped over on thier sides etc. Turrents bursting into the air. Panzers and t32s both alike.

why do you people think real documentary footage is propaganda? it ceases to amaze me and seems people are here just to prove others wrong then trying to get things a little more accurate.

yes its edited from many different clips put together wwii cameras could only film for 60 seconds before running out of film. So thats why its many clips put togther from all sides archieves. Well no more wasting my time and putting clips to pc.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

SeaFireLIV
06-29-2004, 11:41 AM
LeadSpitter, why the upset? I said thankyou, I did everything to show my appreciation, but if that`s what I honestly think you ought to understand. It would be a show of disrespect to LIE to you and try to work out the bomb effect from that footage.

I was very careful in my response, but no matter how hard I tried you took it personally. It`s NOT a personal thing, just MY observations... Yes I could be wrong, but I`ve read a few books on this that say we must be decipher what`s real and what`s not before making our judgements. That is all i did.

And like I said, I appreciate the footage you showed, whether I may think some of it maybe propaganda or not..

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
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Shifty101
06-29-2004, 12:09 PM
Nice footage. The second tank being blown off of the ground was definatly not a T-34. It looked more like a BT-5/7 or T-26 or some other light tank. No matter what tank it is or if it's real or not, it gives you food for thought. Now what about those .50's...

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pcisbest
06-29-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeBaer.534:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
Anyway, a nearby miss with a HE bomb (be it airborne or an artillery shell), shouldn't be able to penetrate the armour of a tank.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but the bombs blast will do ugly things to the crewmembers of the tank, a tank is not airtight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, it's irrelevant. They wouldn't show up as destroyed tanks in FB then. Second of all, it's wrong.

A strong enough blast would topple the tank, before enough air is pushed fast enough through the slits to endanger the personnel in any way.

A nearby KABOOOUM! will rattle the crew and make them half-deaf, but kill them or harm them? Nah.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, general purpose bombs work off of concussion, they are not capable of penetrating and destroying heavy armor. In regards to the original post, I find it VERY hard to believe that a T-34 was flipped up in the air for "20 feet", physically that is just not possible with any of the air carried ordnance, except maybe the Mistel http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Bombs would sometimes lift tanks up and onto their sides, but throw them up into the air that high? No way. If this is really what you saw, then I would say it was either 1.) A very small tank, probably a BT that you thought was a T-34, or 2.) a clip from a German propaganda film, where they loaded up tons of explosives under a tank and then detonated it. The Germans often did this in their propaganda, for example, to keep fears from spreading about how difficult the T-34 was to destroy back towards home, there are plenty of pictures of T-34s with the backs of their turrets blown off by "German tank rounds", when in reality no such German tank gun (until the introduction of the 88mm on the Tiger anyway) could have done it. It was actually a Teller mine placed under the turret overhang that blew off the back plate of the turret and subsequently detonated the ammunition inside.

I think to really get a tank with a blast effect weapon like a bomb, you need to do as in real life and skip the bomb into the side, where the tank is the most vulnerable. Il-2 models positional armor right? So I would think a hit on the low side would at least destroy the running gear/bogies and be considered a kill.

If anything, I think the bombs are sometimes made a little too effective. If you drop a large bomb, like a 1,000 pound one, I have seen every surrounding little house in the vicinity, along with any vehicles, blow up, which is a little fake. A 1000 pounder is powerful, but when one takes out an entire city block, it looks a little fake.

&lt;EDIT&gt; I just watched the "Stuka" clip, those arent T-34 tanks, those appear to be light tanks, quality of the film is poor, but I can definitely tell you they are not medium or heavy tanks. Also, from what I saw on that film, the bomb didnt just land on the side, like people are talking about doing in the game, it was a direct hit right on the turret. Those light tanks, like a BT or PanzerII or Panzer38(t), would have very thing upper armor, that could have been pierced by a delayed-action bomb like in that clip. The clip looks genuine, the bomb comes down from the top, and explodes inside the tank. What tells me its genuine is also that the tank isnt blown to small pieces, and it only lifts a couple of feet into the air.

You could probably reproduce this effect in IL-2, as the game models historically accurate armor suppossedly, but you would need to get your bomb right on top of the tank, not exploding on the ground beside it, and set a delay for about a half second so it exploded under the armor, not on the surface. BTW this might not work on a Panther, or Tiger II or JS tank though, as even their top armor was thick and would need an anti-tank bomb, not general purpose.

NegativeGee
06-29-2004, 12:14 PM
Another thing about the clip of the tank "getting bombed" is that the one that gets hit is stationary in the shot while the one in the foreground is on the move.

Coincidence, or is the tank in the background set up to be exploded with the other driving by to create the impression of an advance?

I've seen a photo of a Tiger sat on its turret roof, but I have no idea what got it there..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G√ľnther Rall

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p1ngu666
06-29-2004, 02:49 PM
hmm
think its from training ranges, thats where alot of footage was taken.

cameras was big, i think they shoehorned one into a mossie but cameraman had problems with weight. was ok apart from v1 cos of g forces from dive.
i have a couple of pics i could scan in from the filming, went in 20minsish after main force to film damage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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BennyMoore
06-29-2004, 09:47 PM
I know what you mean about a five thousand pound bomb destroying an entire city or a one thousand pound bomb destroying many blocks of houses being insane, but I don't think it's the bomb strength that's at fault. I think that it's the house strength, or at least the lack of house resistance to bombs.

RAAF_Edin
06-29-2004, 10:08 PM
I know what happened in Vukovar... and numerous other cities, towns & vilages... that was one bloody war... hard to forget.

By the way, on the bomb subject... I think the bomb you were referring to we call "The Cow" (as in: "a large dumb destructive animal")

In Il-2 I feel different types of bombs do have quite some dicrepancies in their effectiveness against same targets. I only know for sure that 1000lb bombs carried by P-40 (and others) does a very nice job in blasting pretty much anything. It manages to destroy 2-3 heavy german tanks (if they are not too far apart) or of dropped in between some light armor it gets anything within some 30m radius (my rough approximation) wether it be some trees, trucks, light armor, AAA units or buildings.

--------------------------------------
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Slush69
06-30-2004, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shifty101:
Nice footage. The second tank being blown off of the ground was definatly not a T-34. It looked more like a BT-5/7 or T-26 or some other light tank. No matter what tank it is or if it's real or not, it gives you food for thought. Now what about those .50's...

http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. Those are definitely light tanks. My first thought was "that's a BT-7", but I'm not entirely sure.

Anyway, it's neither a T-34, or those T-32's Leadspitter keeps refering to. (There were two: one model in the early 30's, and a late 30's model that lead to the T-34, just a bit of trivia).

I don't want to argue about whether this is real combat footage or not, but it's been recorded with several cameraes, and it has been edited. There's actually no way of knowing, what threw that light tank 1,5-2 metres up in the air. To me it definitely looks like some of the individual sequences have been edited together from several different films.

Anyway, we know the energy content of a HE bomb, and we know the weight of light tanks and T-34's. So let's get a math kid on board. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cheers/slush

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RAAF_Edin
06-30-2004, 05:18 AM
Oh yeah... my bad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It is called "The Sow" and thanks for the correction... I got it all mixed up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

--------------------------------------
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Edin "Kuky" Kulelija
No1 Squadron RAAF

Atomic_Marten
06-30-2004, 05:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Edin:
Oh yeah... my bad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It is called "The Sow" and thanks for the correction... I got it all mixed up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

--------------------------------------
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Edin "Kuky" Kulelija
No1 Squadron RAAF<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem, whatsoever... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Cheers

[This message was edited by Atomic_Marten on Thu July 08 2004 at 05:58 PM.]

Hawgdog
06-30-2004, 05:39 AM
GREAT CLIP!!!

But, and this isn't a slam, a poke nothing (I love vintage war clips/films-got 100 hours worth here)But that piece was german propaganda. yes, Ruskie archives, captured german propaganda film. Excellent work too. Rolling tank fine, flipped tank had HE under it. Thanks for posting. Dont get your skirt wadded up, keep on posting!!

By the way, the bombs do seem week. I dropped two, 2, 1000 pounders just behind an IL2 taking off and barely nudged his rear tail section. Theres just no way he could have NOT wiped out as his wheels hadn't gotten off, he was rolling nice, right hand turn just trying to take off. Should have ripped him a new one. On my turn and re-attack his rear gunner dinked my motor! ~S~ to that lucky rear bastid
Those P.11Ptabs seem like M-80's too.

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VaporBlast
06-30-2004, 06:02 AM
I agree with your interogation on that subject. I've read in a magazine about panzers that most of the tanks that were lost because of near misses and not direct it. If I can find that magasine again I'll try to post some quotes. But it seem that an american 250lbs bombs hitting relatively far away was able to flip a tiger and a panther over.

Waldo.Pepper
06-30-2004, 09:03 PM
Dear Leadspitter

I happen to know a thing or two about tanks of the era, and here is my unsolicited opinion.

The film may be from Soviet archives (doubt it I thik it is German footage) but it mostly depicts event from France in 1940.

I used eo video to convert the film from wmv to avi and had a close look frame by frame in virtual dub.

At 29 seconds (frame 732) the tank destroyed is French. Specificaly a Renault R-35/39 Light Tank.

See... http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/france/France-Light.html

Look at the shape and pattern of the bogies. Furthermore, if you pause the film you can even see the French roundel on the right rear track skirt. Also a "spade" (like from a playing card) and the number 244 on the tank.
(Please don't go and suggest that it is some kind of French lend lease job. Didn't happen anyway, French were knocked out of the war in 1940...only free French after that. Nor is it a tank that was captured from the French by the Germans....pressed into service on the Russian from then captured by the Russians....then bombed by the German Stuka. The roundel disproves this theory.

Frame 730, 30 seconds in There is a Pzkw III advancing past an already burning Russian BT-7. The Panzer III erupts. It could be from a mine, artillery, or anti-tank fire. If it is evidence of the effectiveness of an airplane dropped bomb, then it was a German own goal - as it was one of their own, unlikely. I think it was artillery fire, personally. Based upon the upward motion of the tank.

Frame 867 34 seconds.. Well we are back in France again as the tank advancing past another burning wreck is another Renault (check the turret shape this time).

Most of the footage is from the 1940 campaign in France. Note the markings on the Stuka. They lack the proper fuselage stripe that was applied for Operation Barbarossa.

In conclusion I may agree with you that the bombs should be pumped up a bit (maybe even a lot). But I'm sorry this film does nothing to advance that case.

Ciao!

BennyMoore
06-30-2004, 09:19 PM
They shouldn't be pumped up as much as made as effective online as they are offline.

KG26_Alpha
07-01-2004, 05:11 AM
There is a bug with the larger bombs "online"
Only the host is able to destroy objects that are added to the coop mission ie: tanks trains trucks etc, all buildings or trains already in the map are destroyable by other pilots.
1c team has been notified heres PART of the usual bug report i send in.
Since the report also the Mistel has the same problem.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alphas/SC2000kg%20Bomb%20Bug2.htm

We asked 1c team if its possible for BoB to have "mine" effect from bombing, flipping tanks etc but no reply yet.

http://www.freewebs.com/kg26/<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> </pre><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> </pre>