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hayabusa_1971
09-20-2007, 10:49 PM
Does anybody use this maneuver online? I have tried it to force an overshoot of an opponent on my six, but I still get hit.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Would be useful, If done correctly...

na85
09-20-2007, 11:40 PM
are you referring to the rolling scissors? (combatAircraft (http://www.combataircraft.com/tactics/vertical_rolling_scissors.aspx) / simHQ (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html))

There's also a maneuver called the lag displacement roll, but I unfortunately don't have a link to info about it.

rnzoli
09-21-2007, 04:19 AM
i sometimes use it, but it's not something that makes you invulnerable

it will not help against a better turning opponent (will follow your barrel roll and stays on your 6), and it is quite predictable manouver so you may get hit by faster aircraft also, which is making a speedy pass on you

STENKA_69.GIAP
09-21-2007, 04:41 AM
We ran a set of tests of defensive manoevers for a two seater against a closing fighter. The barrel roll gave the fighter the most difficulty to hold a shooting solution. However it costs a bit of height so will be mixed in before or after scissors which give a better chance of an overrun and less height loss.

For fighter againt fighter we found another manoevre more effective but it's so horrible it makes you puke your beer alll over the keyboard so I'm not going to mention it.

nellip
09-21-2007, 05:44 AM
I used it in a squad coop last weekend - only problem was I was flying a Betty at the time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

It worked though, the Wildcat on my 6 was laughing so much he forgot to shoot at me!

stalkervision
09-21-2007, 05:53 AM
The trick to using the barrel roll is WHEN to use it.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

oh alright I will tell you..

when an opponent is coming in at high speed in a B and Z attack this is when to use it. The trick is to wait till absolutely the last second and then do it. Your opponent should slide easily out in front of you and then you can bag quite a nice kill. Get good at this manauver and your opponets won't know what hit them.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2843/grab0032lf5.jpg

................................................

Try this barrel roll on for size sucker..! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4586/grab0038mo1.jpg

...............................................

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7007/grab0047ma4.jpg

What is your opponent going to do? Planes aren't equipt with brakes and since he is flying much faster then you are even if he tries a "counter barrel roll" he will still pass you by and get killed..

more likely he will be so totally frozen by this manauver if done right he won't even have time to think about it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

major_setback
09-21-2007, 07:12 AM
I found the barrel roll alot easier to do in the original IL2. A good manouvre was done often by the AI and I tried to copy it: a wide barrel roll finishing with a high climb and pulling back on the stick toward the end of the roll; so you would corkscrew first round 300* then twist up and back over so you reversed direction. I think the physics allowed for that in the original game more than now. It's avery hard manouvre to follow.

Blood_Splat
09-21-2007, 07:50 AM
How do you do a wing over or whatever? The AI use to do it all the time many patches ago.

Insuber
09-21-2007, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by major_setback:
I found the barrel roll alot easier to do in the original IL2.

I do agree. Even in Pacific Fighters the barrel roll was an easy manoeuver, stick full back, rudder left (or right) and bank left (or right) if I remember well. The energy loss was minimal, if the barrel was slightly downwards.

Online the effects on the enemies on your 6 were exhilarating, it was a safe way to escape and often get an easy kill.

Alas, in 46 I haven't yet succeeded a single barrel roll http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif.

Regards,
Insuber

huggy87
09-21-2007, 08:28 AM
It is also a good maneuver if you are significantly over taking your opponent. If your opponent is bled down and trying to force you into a 1 circle flat scissors, and you have a significant energy advantage, you can barrel roll to preserve your positional and energy advantage.

marie103
09-21-2007, 08:38 AM
yeah, i know it's a good manuever....

but the thing is ....

Skunk_438RCAF
09-21-2007, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by marie103:
yeah, i know it's a good manuever....

but the thing is ....

Really? Holy Cow!

JG14_Josf
09-21-2007, 09:18 AM
How about learning?

Many players fly as a team. If you don't, then, you may not even know this to be true.

Anyway; when flying as a team there will often be the case where your wingman is displaced behind you when your wingman should be on your right or left wing.

Example:

You find a target and you tell your wingman that you are going to attack the target.

Wingman says:

"No joy."Ł

That means that your wingman is holding his stick and wondering what to do with it.

You say:

"Do you have me in sight?"Ł

Wingman says:

"Duh; I'm right here on your right wing where you keep me, so...., of course I have you in sight."Ł

Follow me.

Your wingman follows.

Now you have that poor situation where your wingman is out of sight and vulnerable.

You say:

"Do you see the target now?"Ł

Wingman says:

"Got it."Ł

You tell your wingman to stay on target.

What do you do?

Do you practice and learn how best to get your wingman on your right or left wing (or in front of you) instead of having your wingman behind you or do you know how to get this done quickly?

I've been told that the maneuver above is called śleap frog'.

How do you do it?

Try this:

Pull up and roll at the same time.

Roll one complete rotation while keeping the stick back (loading up the wings) and focus your attention on the target (keep flying at the target).

See what happens.

If your wingman was WAYYYYYY behind you, then, you are probably still ahead of your wingman.

If your wingman was very close behind you, then, you are probably going to smash into your wingman or end up right behind your wingman IF you roll very quickly and IF you don't add a whole lot of lift to the wings.

IF you pulled straight up first and rolled right while adding lift to the wings, then, your barrel roll will go right, down, and up under your wingman.

IF you rolled left first and then pulled a left turn just before rolling a barrel roll to the right then you will go left, up, over, and down behind your wingman.

If you cut power and go up while you do this, then, the wingman (or the attacking enemy) will have a hard time following your barrel roll because the rate of deceleration will be maximized IF you can ride just shy of blackout while doing this maneuver.

hayabusa_1971
09-21-2007, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Insuber:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
I found the barrel roll alot easier to do in the original IL2.

I do agree. Even in Pacific Fighters the barrel roll was an easy manoeuver, stick full back, rudder left (or right) and bank left (or right) if I remember well. The energy loss was minimal, if the barrel was slightly downwards.

Online the effects on the enemies on your 6 were exhilarating, it was a safe way to escape and often get an easy kill.

Alas, in 46 I haven't yet succeeded a single barrel roll http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif.

Regards,
Insuber </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would the version of the game make a difference? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Mercwolf2
09-21-2007, 09:26 AM
If I have a plane on my six, which was my first mistake in letting him get there, I will invert cut power to zero diving into a split s dive to the deck increasing power in the dive and building speed which is a good thing. I will sometimes reduce flaps for a short period of time as not to dammage them and them break hard to the right or left trying to cause my opponent to break or if still following me overshoot where I can get on his six. Doesn't always work but something to try.

TC_Stele
09-21-2007, 10:34 AM
To do a barrel roll press Z or R twice!

I use it as a last resort when the bandit is close on my six. I tend to drop flaps and power, which makes the overshoot of the bandit faster. I'd say this works about 90% of the time when I use it. However, this makes me very vulnerable for a second pass, but I'm usually with a human wingman, and more than likely he's able to make a kill on the bandit. It's risky, but isn't all dogfighting?

Insuber
09-21-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by hayabusa_1971:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Insuber:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
I found the barrel roll alot easier to do in the original IL2.

I do agree. Even in Pacific Fighters the barrel roll was an easy manoeuver, stick full back, rudder left (or right) and bank left (or right) if I remember well. The energy loss was minimal, if the barrel was slightly downwards.

Online the effects on the enemies on your 6 were exhilarating, it was a safe way to escape and often get an easy kill.

Alas, in 46 I haven't yet succeeded a single barrel roll http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif.

Regards,
Insuber </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would the version of the game make a difference? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe changes in the flight models? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Bremspropeller
09-21-2007, 04:43 PM
The easiest counter to a barrel-roll is to pull up into the blue and come back down on the opponent.

The point is to minimize your forward speed-vector without killingt you overall speed.
You'll just brake as well, but not by transitioning into a slower speed, but by changing your energy-state from kinetic into potential.

While he's still wondering where you went, you're already coming down to kick his a$$ for playing tricks on you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

zardozid
09-21-2007, 06:30 PM
Posted Fri September 21 2007 14:16 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by hayabusa_1971:

quote:
Originally posted by Insuber:

quote:
Originally posted by major_setback:
I found the barrel roll alot easier to do in the original IL2.



I do agree. Even in Pacific Fighters the barrel roll was an easy manoeuver, stick full back, rudder left (or right) and bank left (or right) if I remember well. The energy loss was minimal, if the barrel was slightly downwards.

Online the effects on the enemies on your 6 were exhilarating, it was a safe way to escape and often get an easy kill.

Alas, in 46 I haven't yet succeeded a single barrel roll Smash.

Regards,
Insuber



Why would the version of the game make a difference? Confused



Maybe changes in the flight models? whisper


I'm glad to see I'm not the only one...I thought I was loosing it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
09-21-2007, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
The easiest counter to a barrel-roll is to pull up into the blue and come back down on the opponent.

The point is to minimize your forward speed-vector without killingt you overall speed.
You'll just brake as well, but not by transitioning into a slower speed, but by changing your energy-state from kinetic into potential.

While he's still wondering where you went, you're already coming down to kick his a$$ for playing tricks on you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

You sure you know what your talking about there.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I use barrel rolls both offensively and defensively. You get really good at this manauver and there is no stopping you.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

A guy that can barrel roll well and quickly will be on your tail blowing holes in your bird before you can blink an eye..

I advise all you guys to really practice this manauver and get good at it. BTW, I do it all the time in IL-2 1946 so I don't know why you all can't? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

stalkervision
09-21-2007, 07:34 PM
try flying one v one missions agains't Erich Hartman in the game with a p-51. Old Erich just loves that manauver.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Of course I have little trouble with him but you might.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I believe at last count I have taken on four to six "erich hartman's" at one time and shot down them all.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9173/grab0033aj1.jpg

JG14_Josf
09-21-2007, 09:49 PM
I've had about enough.

If you "think" you are bad, then, prove it.

If someone has a question concerning FIGHTER COMBAT and someone has an answer too it - then record the track file.

The game is one thing.

Reality (http://www.amazon.com/Swastika-Gunsight-Memoirs-Russian-Fighter/dp/0750922400) is a fact.

stalkervision
09-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
I've had about enough.

If you "think" you are bad, then, prove it.

If someone has a question concerning FIGHTER COMBAT and someone has an answer too it - then record the track file.

The game is one thing.

Reality (http://www.amazon.com/Swastika-Gunsight-Memoirs-Russian-Fighter/dp/0750922400) is a fact.

You've had about enough.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif No I bet you would take a lot more if i felt like giving it to you.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Yes, in point of fact I have shot down four to six hartmans. No, I didn't record the files. You will just have to take my word for it Josf.. You don't believe me that's your problem... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hay I don't think I'm bad. I am sure many people have done this before. It really isn't that hard..

btw your proof is historical books? I'm totally sure this game is so far from historically accurate it isn't even funny.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stalkervision
09-21-2007, 10:17 PM
I will tell you one thing. I am looking forward to BOBSOW in the hopes it's ai is very much superior to this game. It's way to easy to beat the ai here.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

JG14_Josf
09-21-2007, 10:43 PM
No I bet you would take a lot more if i felt like giving it to you..

Whomever you are,

Do you gamble or just run your mouth?

stalkervision
09-22-2007, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No I bet you would take a lot more if i felt like giving it to you..

Whomever you are,

Do you gamble or just run your mouth? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


whatever you are, I just shot down four erich hartman's im a mission without really trying.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

and I am coming down with a cold and blowing my nose constantly while flying! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Your answer...Got tracks? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif No, I don't know how to do that but I have some rather nice screenshots for you eat your foolish words with.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

JG14_Josf
09-22-2007, 12:46 AM
Your answer...Got tracks?

Stalkervision (whatever),

You have me confuse with someone else. Your victories over the A.I. are recorded and look fine.

Your ability to do other things remains somewhat confused. I'm interested in learning things from you concerning the topic.

What was the topic?

stalkervision
09-22-2007, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Your answer...Got tracks?

Stalkervision (whatever),

You have me confuse with someone else. Your victories over the A.I. are recorded and look fine.

Your ability to do other things remains somewhat confused. I'm interested in learning things from you concerning the topic.

What was the topic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forgot about a dozen screenshots ago buddy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Check the "screenshots" section. Sorry I didn't do six hartman's or ten hartman's for you but then I would need more ammo I believe.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Oh and I have a cold... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6795/grab0063te2.jpg

JG14_Josf
09-22-2007, 08:12 AM
Oh and I have a cold...


Get well soon.

DKoor
09-22-2007, 08:33 AM
Hey guys.........

Trillion posts and not one track to show what the barrel roll is?

Pssht.

Now you got me confused.

I don't know what the barrel roll is.

So some of you that are willing please post the track.

stalkervision
09-22-2007, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh and I have a cold...


Get well soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

seinfeld.."get well get well soon we wish you get well soon.." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
09-22-2007, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Hey guys.........

Trillion posts and not one track to show what the barrel roll is?

Pssht.

Now you got me confused.

I don't know what the barrel roll is.

So some of you that are willing please post the track.

best I can do Dkoor is screenshots.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

check out the first page thread sequence of one of my barrel rolls agains't a P-38.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It came diving down on my poor already wounded bird and proceeded to get me angry. Nothing left of that P-38 after I was done with it.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/4586/grab0038mo1.jpg

sorry buddy I had more screenshots of this barrel role at one time.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I do barrel roles by second nature now without thinking whatsoever. I believe I pull the stick right back full elevator while doing a roll with both alerion and rudder. This makes a real wide "barrel" of a roll. The plane therefore takes longer to fly the same distance it would if it were flying straight ahead..

just wanted to add that notice it happened so fast the p-38 was still shooting at me at the time..! Shooting at thin air! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Not much time to escape and climb away as was claimed can be done is it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

maybe the P-38 has a built in warp drive function to outrun machine gun and cannon rounds.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
09-22-2007, 01:32 PM
maybe sometime I will post some barrel role screenshots from BOBWOV. I hardly ever have to do that manauver here as the ai is so darn easy to beat.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

In BOBWOV I am constantly doing barrel rolls in my me-109e, usually to keep behind poorer rolling Hurricanes trying to outturn me as I B and Z them.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

doing a constant rolling barrel roll with a hurricane in front of you trying to do the same is great fun.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

hayabusa_1971
09-22-2007, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
Hey guys.........

Trillion posts and not one track to show what the barrel roll is?

Pssht.

Now you got me confused.

I don't know what the barrel roll is.

So some of you that are willing please post the track.

Here is a link that may help.....
http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/ACM-barrel-roll.html

Schwarz.13
09-22-2007, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:just wanted to add that notice it happened so fast the p-38 was still shooting at me at the time..! Shooting at thin air! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <span class="ev_code_RED">Not much time to escape and climb away as was claimed can be done is it?</span>http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

i believe you may be refering to this comment Stalkervision:


Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
The easiest counter to a barrel-roll is to pull up into the blue and come back down on the opponent.

The point is to minimize your forward speed-vector without killingt you overall speed.
You'll just brake as well, but not by transitioning into a slower speed, but by changing your energy-state from kinetic into potential.

While he's still wondering where you went, you're already coming down to kick his a$$ for playing tricks on you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

I might be new to the game but i understand that the above comment was probably made with regard to a roughly co-alt/co-energy bandit on your six as opposed to a bandit coming in your six with a 'ton of smash' (high-speed bounce) as you seem to be talking about - entirely different situation! Physics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

oh and:


Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh and I have a cold...


Get well soon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Irony>Minengescho▀ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif