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Langebro
03-12-2004, 09:31 AM
Greetings Oleg and all.
I have test flow the TA-152 in the AEP and it seems strange to me as an Aerospace Engineer that the Stalling characteristics are so bad, compared to the FW190A/D? For instance, the wing loading on the TA is less than the 190's and the tail moment arm plus the vertical tail area is bigger. Granted the higher aspect ratio wing gives you a higher moment of inertia around the yaw axis, but this should be compensated by the longer aft fuselage and bigger vertical tail. Even so, if you G-stall the TA it will go into an unrecoverable flat spin. I guess if you react within a fraction of a second you might have a chance to save it otherwise you need to bail out.
I guess I am just raising the issue, not knowing exactly how the real aircraft behaved, just basing my assumptions on my proffesional experience and background. I would appreciate if you could let me know if the stalls are correctly modeled or if you think, like me, that they should be more benign in nature or at least recoverable. Great game all together. Keep up the good work!! ~S

Hakan Langebro

Langebro
03-12-2004, 09:31 AM
Greetings Oleg and all.
I have test flow the TA-152 in the AEP and it seems strange to me as an Aerospace Engineer that the Stalling characteristics are so bad, compared to the FW190A/D? For instance, the wing loading on the TA is less than the 190's and the tail moment arm plus the vertical tail area is bigger. Granted the higher aspect ratio wing gives you a higher moment of inertia around the yaw axis, but this should be compensated by the longer aft fuselage and bigger vertical tail. Even so, if you G-stall the TA it will go into an unrecoverable flat spin. I guess if you react within a fraction of a second you might have a chance to save it otherwise you need to bail out.
I guess I am just raising the issue, not knowing exactly how the real aircraft behaved, just basing my assumptions on my proffesional experience and background. I would appreciate if you could let me know if the stalls are correctly modeled or if you think, like me, that they should be more benign in nature or at least recoverable. Great game all together. Keep up the good work!! ~S

Hakan Langebro

Oleg_Maddox
03-12-2004, 09:58 AM
The stall really in Ta-152 going later than in D-9. You get such feel becasue you can't feel the flight curver on which you are going. The angle of airflow attack to a wing is greater that can keep Ta comparing to D9. Its a fact.

About flat spin I can only one thing. I also dislike it, but I recover after a 2,5 - 3 circles. The things is wrong only if we have a wrong center of gravity taken from a blueprints that we have.
Howvere if to move center of gravity on 5% ahead the flat spin already almost impossible... But in this case we can't make turn curve as it was and the plane became less maneuverable in terms of flat flight.
The center of gravity with GM-1 device fully loaded on Ta-151 was moved strong enough back.

I think recals of some pilots we may take that they had it empty, becasue GM-1 almost never used in real battles on TA-152H. All real flights where on low-mid altitudes where GM-1 wasn't need.


The feel of real aircraft and in a sim is different speaking about fells of pilot by his body, etc. where he can recognize any very small changes in behaviour of aircraft comparing to the sim. This is the main differences. It will hapeens even if FM wil copy 100% details of real aircraft in behaviour. You will never feell the samea s in real aircraft.

WUAF_GenSwat
03-12-2004, 10:06 AM
Kurt Tank chose the same workhorse Jumo 213 powerplant used in the Fw 190D. For the Ta 152H, he selected an uprated version, the Jumo 213E, equipped with a 2-stage, 3-speed mechanical supercharger and MW 50 engine boost. The MW 50 system used methanol-water mixture to boost engine output from 1,312 kw (1,750 hp) to 1,537 kw (2,050 hp) for short periods. Because of aluminum shortages, Focke-Wulf made the wing spars from steel and built the rear fuselage and empennage. The wing contained two steel spars. The front spar extended slightly beyond the landing gear attachment points but the rear spar spanned the entire wing. The wing twisted 3? from the root to the flap-aileron junction. This 'washout' prevented the ailerons from stalling before the center section. This allowed the pilot to maintain roll control during a stall. Armament consisted of one 30mm MK 108 cannon firing 90 rounds through the propeller hub and one 20mm MG 151 cannon firing 150-175 rounds from each wing root.

they incorprated a 3 degree wing twist for wash out to allow roll control to keep and or control a no stall condition

taking from http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/focke_ta152.htm

Langebro
03-12-2004, 10:17 AM
Thanks Oleg, I appreciate your response.

Since I do not have all the data at hand on TA152, can you tell me if the wing twist was linear from Root to Tip, or was the twist terminated at 80% as on the original 190 wing?
Also was the same NACA 23015.5 and 23009 airfoils used on the TA? Amount of twist the same (3 deg) or was it more?
Of course all these small details would affect the charateristics and pre/post stall behaviour...
I totally agree on your conclusions regarding effective stall angle of attack due to the higher effeciency of the higher aspect ratio wing. I do not know if the center of gravity was further back, on the mean aerodynamic chord, than on the D9, but if it is at the same percentage it should have a better/more benign stall recovery. I understand that if you move the CG forward by 5% that it will not reach the turn performance. I am sure the CG that you have is correct, but from the data that I have gathered, granted, it is far from complete, it seems the TA152 would have very benign and fairly easily recoverable accelerated stalls...

Hakan

crazyivan1970
03-12-2004, 10:24 AM
I am not Engineer and i don`t really know what you guys are taking about... but from my personal experiances i find TA is the most stable and forgiving FW in the game. Things that A/D will never forgive, TA cuts you alittle slack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

JG26Red
03-12-2004, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I am not Engineer and i don`t really know what you guys are taking about... but from my personal experiances i find TA is the most stable and forgiving FW in the game. Things that A/D will never forgive, TA cuts you alittle slack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i found while fighting a p51 up at 10k you can basically pull all the way on the stick and it doesnt struggle... at least at that alt..

crazyivan1970
03-12-2004, 10:54 AM
Actually i was dogfighting a very good P-51 pilot in one of my COOPs for like 20 min at least, who was flying Mustang on the deck and TA152 blew me away with its performance... i did flatspinned at 1k... but manged to recover after 3-4 spins at alt of like 300m... funny thing Mustang flew away thinking that i`m done.. Probably one of the best fights i ever had. Couple of nights ago MajorDeath made a COOP with 16 P-63s attacking german Me262/He162 (6 human piloted planes total) airbase. We had 2 Ta152s flying patrol (MajorD and me) and all jets still on the ground while two flights of 8+8 KingCobras spwnd 10 km away. Not all Cobras were humans tho...i think 10 outta 16. All i saw is two groups of dots coming for us and MD saying: I am taking left one, you take right one. Funny thing we were at the same alt with Cobras doing like 350 hehe. And then facing 8 KingCobras TA proved to be superb machine...

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

VW-IceFire
03-12-2004, 12:06 PM
I so want to be a part of VFC Co-op nights again! Can't wait for AEP! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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PzKpfw
03-12-2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I am not Engineer and i don`t really know what you guys are taking about... but from my personal experiances i find TA is the most stable and forgiving FW in the game. Things that A/D will never forgive, TA cuts you alittle slack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

V!
Regards,


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya me either Ivan http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. But I do agree with you that Ta is defintly the most forgiveing of the A-Ds I did things in a Ta that would have killed me in a D-9. I kept thinking back to the German Ta pilot who said it handeled like a glider, when I flew it. Another thing I found was when you engage MW 50 in the Ta you can feel it's effects, unlike say in the in the D-9 etc.


On the COG issue I tend to think Oleg is on to something with the GM-1 tank thoughts, as the Ta 152 reportedly never was used in combat in its intended role as an HA interceptor, all Ta 152 combat reportedly occured from medium to low altitiudes. Their would have been no operationaL reason to maintain GM-1 tanks.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

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WUAF_GenSwat
03-13-2004, 08:38 PM
TA 152 was used for high alt cover for me262 read an acticle

Glassess
03-13-2004, 10:23 PM
The Ta 152 was not the regular escort for 262s they were used occasionallty for that kind of work but generally they were used for point defence around Berlin.