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TheGozr
02-23-2006, 07:43 PM
Oleg,
The turbulences are almost gone , the aircrafts are more stable wich is good but this should not smooth the turbulences, in bad weather the turbulences should bang your planes pretty hard but right now is smooth like silk wich is NOT good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ok 4.05m need turbulences back plz

maybe it's just me i'm testing more.. PLz input?

Thank you

major_setback
02-24-2006, 02:41 AM
I've always thought the turbulence was much to strong. My joystick bangs back and foreward so hard it's difficult to hold. I've no idea how hard flying in these conditons are in real life though.

Coments please form you real life pilots.

Piniol306
02-24-2006, 03:19 AM
You can decrease - increase amplitude of punch.ffe file in forcefeedback direcktory using Forecefeedback Editor (microsoft tool- but fit to all FF joystick)influence on turbulences, hitting, taxing your undercariage on ground, taking shoot of enemies, feel flak artilery.

SeaFireLIV
02-24-2006, 03:39 AM
The turbulence which some have interpreted as `wobble` is greatly reduced in 4.04 to almost nothing. And this has been the WHOLE problem since the release of 4.01-4.03. People saying they have `wobble` problems and not liking it, but I have suspected that this was really mostly an attempt at realistic atmospheric effects on a WWII aircraft.

Still, now it`s gone. Yesterday, I shot down 2 109G2s no troubles and bagged a bunch of supply/AAA trucks with ease because of the lack of any air resistance or `wobble` as so many call it.

It`s easier to shoot and kill things, yes. But is it simulating? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

WWMaxGunz
02-24-2006, 03:45 AM
Is it turbulence that only affects the plane when you use the rudder?

stansdds
02-24-2006, 05:23 AM
The Corsair still wobbles.

T_O_A_D
02-24-2006, 05:26 AM
I'm going to miss the turbulance.

I have no earthly idea why, but my shooting skill went up two fold or more since they were introduced, to the sim.

I have yet to fly 4.04m enough to tell if my gunnery has changed.

This version feels as if we rolled back all we gained.

But if this is what we are supposed to have and all before was just an experiement then so be it.

NonWonderDog
02-24-2006, 06:04 AM
It was never much like turbulence. It was only there when you moved the rudder; it was just yaw instability.

Real turbulence would be nice, but real turbulence doesn't increase eightfold as soon as you touch the rudder.

I never really complained about the "wobbles," though. I could (kind of) accept them as a stand in for real turbulence.

knightflyte
02-24-2006, 09:07 AM
You know Oleg was sitting there with his finger on the 4.04 send button thinking to himself.......SEND?.....DON'T SEND?........SEND?......DON'T SEND?!!

And UBI's whispering in his ear...'DON'T SEND....they won't appreciate it.'

gates123
02-24-2006, 09:33 AM
Gozr's talking about maps with bad weather conditions. So in this case I think with yaw stability fixed it just "feels" like turbulence has been reduced when in fact its the improved rudder stability vs cross winds. I highly doubt the actual low altitude turbulence was tampered with.

Viper2005_
02-24-2006, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by major_setback:
I've always thought the turbulence was much to strong. My joystick bangs back and foreward so hard it's difficult to hold. I've no idea how hard flying in these conditons are in real life though.

Coments please form you real life pilots.

Turbulence can throw you around pretty hard. I don't think that there was anything especially scary about IL2's turbulence model, except that some mission builders don't use it properly, so that you sometimes get really strange combinations of weather (eg turbulence stopping miles below clound base).

I don't have a FFB stick so I can't comment on that aspect.

major_setback
02-24-2006, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
It was never much like turbulence. It was only there when you moved the rudder; it was just yaw instability.

Real turbulence would be nice, but real turbulence doesn't increase eightfold as soon as you touch the rudder.



That CAN'T be the same as turbulence. Turbulence is the effect you get in quick mission builder maps (Okinawa anyway at least) with the weather set to 'poor'. It starts suddenly as soon as you descend below 300m, and it stops just before sea level (I believe).
If you go over 300m it suddenly dissapears again -works only on poor weather (and blind/thunder/storm I think).


It has nothing to do with the rudder, if anything it affects mainly the foreward/backward movement of the stick.

These two effects can't be the same (I too falsly thought that the wobble must be a misinterpretation of the turbulence we have in the game).

Test it by going first just above 300m and then below 300m in Okinawa quick mission map (weather set to poor). Turbulence should come and go as you pass this altitude.

TheGozr
02-24-2006, 11:32 AM
In RL the turbulences have a major impacts in flights, Joystics with Force feed back have to be set with cautions because many forces are just plain wrong... very wrong.
The turbulences in RL can make you take different routes.
In a real aircraft the turbulences bounce you pretty hard into those type of aircrafts. But ofcourse "turbulence" is a global name for many others air masses explanations.
The feeling i have now in those aircrafts ingame is basicly what you have in higher altitudes. Low altitudes turbulence should be much strongers and in a hot weather it's not a silk ride. Lots of confusion and mix feeling with the 4.04m, I'm happy to have more rail style flying but this should normaly change with the speed of aircrafts etc.. how to explain this.. humm it's like flying ww2 aircrafts with a cessna style of FM.. i don't know if this make sens to you.

stansdds
02-24-2006, 11:56 AM
Real turbulence can be modeled in IL2. Last week I flew a co-op mission in the Corsair. Take off and flight were normal except I actually survived the combat encounter with no damage to myself, but did damage one opponent and completely destroyed another (miracles do happen). Anyway, I am headed back to base, cruising along at about 2000 feet, the cloud cover is getting thicker, all of a sudden I am buffeting like I've lost a control surface or two. My plane is intact, no holes whatsoever, then it stops. Then it hits me again, stops, hits again, stops. I did manage a beautiful landing, darned near perfect (again with the miracle of miracles). After the mission ended, the mission builder admitted that he had designed the mission to end in poor weather and what we were feeling was wind turbulence.

TheGozr
02-24-2006, 01:26 PM
stansdds
That's a first something maybe i didn't know.. How do you change weather in one mission?

OAC_Kosh
02-24-2006, 01:33 PM
I was never happy with the turbulence and I am glad that it was reduced.

The turbulence is not random like it is in real life, but is arranged in altitude layers and has a constant force. As long as you remain in that particular layer you will be buffeted endlessly. It is enough to pop up 1 meter above the layer and it is as smooth as silk. AI naturally is not affected by it either, lol.
The stick forces were way to strong and much to regular as well, so I edited them a long time ago.
Overall I am much happier without the turbulence altogether, rather than with the way the current one has been implemented.

NonWonderDog
02-24-2006, 02:31 PM
THAT turbulence was so horribly done I had blocked it from my memory. It was just wild random shaking at 10,000 Hz, nothing like being in a plane at all.

If it's been tamed, I'll be very happy. I'll have to check it out.

papotex
02-24-2006, 02:33 PM
if they could leave flight models intact"no wobbles" and reintroduced the air tubulence itd
be great

Aviar
02-24-2006, 02:45 PM
I don't know what Gozr is talking about, but it's not the bad weather turbulence we have in FB. It feels just as it always did.

Maybe he turned off Wind & Turbulence in the Difficulty settings...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aviar

VW-IceFire
02-24-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Oleg,
The turbulences are almost gone , the aircrafts are more stable wich is good but this should not smooth the turbulences, in bad weather the turbulences should bang your planes pretty hard but right now is smooth like silk wich is NOT good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ok 4.05m need turbulences back plz

maybe it's just me i'm testing more.. PLz input?

Thank you
Thats very strange Gozr. I'm building missions that largely involve bad weather and the plane is shaking all about as usual. The difference is now I can control the bloody plane so my nose isn't wandering about by 20 degrees every time I tap the rudder slightly.

xTHRUDx
02-24-2006, 03:28 PM
everyone, please don't confuse these terms:
-air turbulence
-wobbles (gyro effect)
-increased head shake from 4.03

xTHRUDx
02-24-2006, 03:28 PM
Gozr is talking about air turbulence

triggerhappyfin
02-24-2006, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
Gozr is talking about air turbulence

Yeah, and the lack of it now feels CFS3*sh..yak http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

TheGozr
02-24-2006, 05:20 PM
I think as well that it is possible to include fast shaking turbulences as well as air mass or holes. Slow Soft up and down turbulences should be interesting in the FM environement. Only the Oleg team could answer this but this would be a big step foward in FM. Ocean to montains, cold,heat, haze are a whole total difference. As as before you saw peoples talking about how to pilot an aircraft and how is a total fight to keep it flying if you listen to them you would beleive that piloting a real aircraft would necessite Captian America's arms or Hulk in some cases. But A major factor is the weather action to the aircraft and physics is the Most present in RL. You want to make the sim more real it's important to add this with the highest attention.

ManicGibber
02-24-2006, 06:04 PM
My testing, one map Okinawa with an A6M5b using poor weather with the QMB. Nothing has changed at all, weather turbulence is exactly the way it has always been, ie starting at 300meter altitude and extending up to approximately 500mtr there is joystick vibrations. Then when you fly through cloud at any altitude the incockpit view shakes and there is no joystick vibrations produced. I would like to have joystick vibrations when flying through clouds, though this probably isn't possible.

faustnik
02-24-2006, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by T_O_A_D:

This version feels as if we rolled back all we gained.



Thanks for saying that Toad. I miss the "life" of the 4.01 FM. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

VW-IceFire
02-24-2006, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
I think as well that it is possible to include fast shaking turbulences as well as air mass or holes. Slow Soft up and down turbulences should be interesting in the FM environement. Only the Oleg team could answer this but this would be a big step foward in FM. Ocean to montains, cold,heat, haze are a whole total difference. As as before you saw peoples talking about how to pilot an aircraft and how is a total fight to keep it flying if you listen to them you would beleive that piloting a real aircraft would necessite Captian America's arms or Hulk in some cases. But A major factor is the weather action to the aircraft and physics is the Most present in RL. You want to make the sim more real it's important to add this with the highest attention.
I believe Oleg stated that things like that would be arriving in the next product. Lets not try and get him to include all of his new stuff in the old game engine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Apparently Maddox games is plotting to have some civil aviation installations for companies or something like that (this is what I heard) with glider simulators. So thermals and turbulence and all that good stuff...no doubt coming whenever we get BoB.

VW-IceFire
02-24-2006, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:

This version feels as if we rolled back all we gained.



Thanks for saying that Toad. I miss the "life" of the 4.01 FM. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't think we still have that at play? I think we've still got that. The FW190 has a satisfying sway when you flick roll it hard that makes it look and feel like the ones from the gun camera.

I like what has been done largely because I can play and fly again. 401 was fine, although maybe overdone in some ways, 402 was a problem and 403 went halfway to fixing it. 404 is right on. I hope nothing changes from here on in...because we've finally got something playable again. I think if we want the "next level" it can't be hacked into the old product but purpose designed into the new one.

WWMaxGunz
02-24-2006, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
Slow Soft up and down turbulences should be interesting in the FM environement.

Small planes do that on their own in my experience. You're flying along not trimmed to the
ultimate perfection and maybe the plane is going up slightly. So it slows down a tiny bit
as it rises which reduces drag so the plane slowwwwwly drops and gains speed as it does so
it's going up again. The trick for me was to get the total vertical motion small and the
time to cycle large, I didn't have time to become perfect and no one offered a clue on it
including the company boss/pilot/owner when he set me to it.

major_setback
02-25-2006, 04:21 AM
Seems like everyone is experiencing turbulence differently.
The turbulence I get is unmistakable. The stick moves as if hit violently with a hammer, first from the front, then from the back. This happens repeatedly once a second until I'm out of the turbulence layer (then it stops), it starts again as soon as I re-enter the layer.
I can hardly hold the stick (this is not an exaggeration).
It adds a 'rodeo' feel to the game.

The effect is so violent that I worry for the health of my stick, it will fall apart one day.

Note: I haven't had a chance to try the patch more than once, the turbulence did seem reduced by about 50%. This is still not enough (for me!).

My stick is a MSFF2.

OldMan____
02-25-2006, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:

This version feels as if we rolled back all we gained.



Thanks for saying that Toad. I miss the "life" of the 4.01 FM. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You don't think we still have that at play? I think we've still got that. The FW190 has a satisfying sway when you flick roll it hard that makes it look and feel like the ones from the gun camera.

I like what has been done largely because I can play and fly again. 401 was fine, although maybe overdone in some ways, 402 was a problem and 403 went halfway to fixing it. 404 is right on. I hope nothing changes from here on in...because we've finally got something playable again. I think if we want the "next level" it can't be hacked into the old product but purpose designed into the new one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree. Don´t really feel anything lost from 4.01 to 4.04, just more stable planes, like 90% of RL pilots that tried it said it shoudl be.

VW-IceFire
02-25-2006, 07:14 AM
Gozr, can you take a NTRK of you in a thunderstorm with no turbulence? That may be handy. I'm getting rocked about...as usual.

joeap
02-25-2006, 10:37 AM
Geez what sim are you guys playing??? NOTHING changed in turbulence for me!!

OAC_Kosh
02-25-2006, 12:13 PM
To help all of you MSFF2 users (like myself).

The following example game directory "c:\games\il2\forcefeedback" contains the .ffe files. These .ffe files contain the Force Feedback effects and can be re-edited with the tool called Fedit.

I find that program hard to find so I am going to host it for download in our webspace for all interested.

http://www.OACsquad.com/Tools/fedit.zip

S!

TheGozr
02-25-2006, 03:28 PM
lets make it clear. Force feed back ALL OF THEM ARE WRONG. You have probably to tweak the feeling a lots to feel what the body is supose to feel instead of teh stick. SO with that say lets talk about Turbulences.

Icefire who talked beside you about Thunderstorm?
Do you know that flying in a real hot weather and thunderstorm can feel very similar?
Forcefeed back users please get your settings right and try to simulate as best as you can.

ImpStarDuece
02-25-2006, 04:01 PM
You don't think we still have that at play? I think we've still got that. The FW190 has a satisfying sway when you flick roll it hard that makes it look and feel like the ones from the gun camera.

I like what has been done largely because I can play and fly again. 401 was fine, although maybe overdone in some ways, 402 was a problem and 403 went halfway to fixing it. 404 is right on. I hope nothing changes from here on in...because we've finally got something playable again. I think if we want the "next level" it can't be hacked into the old product but purpose designed into the new one.

My sentiments exactly, couldn't of said it better myself.

major_setback
02-25-2006, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:


Icefire who talked beside you about Thunderstorm?
Do you know that flying in a real hot weather and thunderstorm can feel very similar?
Forcefeed back users please get your settings right and try to simulate as best as you can.

It's not that simple. My stick works perfectly, with good FF and nice general response and no wobble. The ONLY problem is that turbulence is 1) too strong 2) is a knocking effect on the stick.

If I change any settings I'd lose the feel of the stick (set at default).
I'm happy with the stick. I'm happy with the feel of the stick and it's responce. I'm happy with the FF. I love the stick; I hate the knocking turbulence.

MaxBruder
02-26-2006, 12:26 AM
I also am getting turbulance with 4.04m. There does not seem to be any change from before.

joeap
02-26-2006, 04:50 AM
Oh I get it, this is for FFB stick users. Don't have one myself...so obviously this means the FM was messed up again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

TheGozr
02-26-2006, 10:46 AM
This is not about Force feed back sticks..

OldMan____

Like I said stable plane is something not in question here but the turbulences FM. Now tell me how many ww2 fighters aircraft pilot did you make try the game too.? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Anyway like someone said before just engine limitation and i hope that we will see that in BoB.
Or have more patches that serve like betas for the engine FM before BOB.

T_O_A_D
02-28-2006, 03:51 AM
@ VW-IceFire, OldMan____

You miss understand. I feel we lost the dynamic life of the atmosphere around us.

weither it was correct or not, it felt alive to me.

Now it feels deadend.

All perspective of course.

I myself had no problem with it, I actually improved my skill with 4.02 I struggles with 4.01. But it may of been I flew more after 4.01 because I enjoyed it more than the train ride we had before.

Now 4.04 isn't bad, and it has a more dynamic feel than pre 4.01, but to me it feels like a step backwards.

Agian, I'll take as is, because thats what we got, and if Oleg bleives it then I beleive it. Who am I to say, or 99.99% of us to say, since we have and never will fly any of these in real life.

VF-51-Dart
02-28-2006, 09:26 AM
Turbulence gone??? What the heck are you talking about? Our squad just ran a mission on Okinawa in bad weather and I assure you, the turbulence was there. Made trapping back aboard the ship a real squirrelly affair.