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slaken
03-19-2007, 09:46 PM
Got a little problem. I can't seem to get the chronometer working for manual targetting. To calculate the enemy ships speed that is. I click the button and the chronometer appears but then what? It doesn't start by it self and starting it manually doesnt make any difference either.

Any answers appreciated http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Death_Wisper
03-20-2007, 02:32 AM
Same problem here!
Please help!
TY

Reybert
03-20-2007, 05:38 AM
Click the "wheel" on the top of the clock.

Death_Wisper
03-20-2007, 06:09 AM
@Reybert.
We know how to start the chronometer, we don't how to calculate the speed of the target so please elaborate. How do u do it and be specific if u will.
TY

banzai_billy
03-20-2007, 01:16 PM
I don't own it yet, but try the tutorials.
If it's anything like SHIII it should give an explanation before you launch the sim.
And guessing, start the chronometer, stop it 15 seconds later and speed will be displayed. For this to accuractely work attempt to be at a 90 AOB and at a slow speed-- refer to SHIII community manual.

slaken
03-20-2007, 04:31 PM
@Banzai_billy

That was my first guess as well. But no, it's broken somehow. The manual actually just says to click the chronometer-icon and then you're done. Just like in SH3. Except it doesn't work.

For me this is, sadly, completely gamebreaking. Playing with automated TDC is for me like playing a shooter with auto-aim.

Waiting for a patch. Taps foot.

banzai_billy
03-20-2007, 05:07 PM
....but thats not how it worked in SHIII....
you wait 15 seconds. try it and report back i am interested in this bug. it is a potential game killer

slaken
03-20-2007, 07:15 PM
As I said before. I've already tried it.

Tried using the chronometer for 10,15,30,60,120 seconds. It's not working.

thecutcollector
03-20-2007, 09:08 PM
I have the same problem... i click the chronometer to get it started and wait 15ish seconds.. sometimes 30.. but no speed is ever displayed.

CableRouter
03-21-2007, 02:30 AM
Hey, what's a broken speed finder when I can't even use the Stadimeter. I click it, line up the ghost image and the second I click it again I'm looking at my desktop. 5 out of 5 times so far.

Still, I can do everything manually and still score hits. Just can't do anything about the weather at Campaign Start - I've seen more than 20 straight days of rain. 20 more and the Japanese will need to build an Ark to survive; then I'll be there to torpedo it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Krycek1972
03-22-2007, 07:32 AM
I have the exact same problem. Been playing all evening and trying to work out the speed estimate using the method in the manual. It simply doesnt work and im used to SH3's methods.

So for now thats useless and the only way of manually getting speed estimates is to match heading with your target and match speed. Not good when your trying to chase down a speeding cruiser.

silenthunterfan
03-22-2007, 08:17 AM
Quote manual "left click on the clock icon on the data tool. This will take the first sighting and begin counting the time. It is best to have the target locked at this moment. When satisfied with the expended time - longer is better - left click again. This will conclude the measurement and display the results."

Tried this several times!

Does not work! Hope it is fixed A.S.A.P.

KAgilbou
03-22-2007, 08:35 AM
You have to click the top of chronometer to have it work.
Another click stops its.

Check this :

click here (http://gilb.nerim.net/SH4_chronometer.wmv)

Death_Wisper
03-22-2007, 09:15 AM
@KAgilbou!
Please read the hole topic before posting!
The issue here is that one can not calculate target's speed with the in-game tool.
To calculate speed use this method.
Get Range to Target,get Bearing to Target than start chronometer. Go to navigation map and draw a line from the center of your boat that matches the RtT at an angle from your heading matching the BtT (the end of the line is your target's position at that moment, P1). Wait for the chrono to show 3 min. 15 sec. take another reading and again draw a line that matches the new RtT and BtT ( the end P2), than draw a third line that connects the end of first with the end of the second. Read the distance between P1 and P2 if it's shows 600m than your target speed is 6 knots/h if it's shows 1.2 Km han your target speed is 12 knots/h. It's preferable to do all this when your boat is stationary.
My source http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/#Step%202:%20Make%20...20Observation%20(DS) (http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/#Step%202:%20Make%20First%20Observation%20(DS))
Please excuse my english, i'm not a native speaker.

the.FliX
03-24-2007, 05:12 PM
well yes, this is basic geometry, and tbh it is also more fun than just using the speed-help as in SH3. You can look up yard/nautic miles conversion on wikipedia and such.

happy drawing lines on the map http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

silent_killer_8
03-24-2007, 05:23 PM
I dont even have the time to wait for 1 minute until his ship passes my 0 degree angle..

S!

SK

the.FliX
03-24-2007, 05:27 PM
huh? I dont see your problem (in spite a non working speed helper function of course...)

The tools on the navigation map offer everything you need to get a perfect speed calculation done, of course only when the enemy ship is staying on a constant course...

the.FliX
03-24-2007, 05:35 PM
and btw... with the drawing method you also get a perfectly fine angle on bow value for free...

to sum it up again: you identify the enemy ship in periscope/TBC and measure the distance and note the angle of observation. Then you start the stop watch immediately and go to nav map. there you draw a circle around your ship (pause the game if you want) with the proper radius (the initial distance to the enemy ship of course). Then you use the compass tool to draw a line from your ship with the proper angle (you have to do some simple subtractions/additions there). where that line and the circle meet is you mark the spot. after 2 or 3 minutes you take another set of distance and angle and construct your second point on the map. Connect the 2 points and use the time between the 2 observations to get a perfectly fine speed measurement. This is more realistic and more fun than the speed helper tool. With the help of the plotted enemy course line you can easily get a very exact value for the bow on angle as well. If the enemy does not discover you this should give you a very high chance of hit even on large distances.

Kinjin13
03-24-2007, 06:09 PM
@ the.Flix

Sounds interesting, and worth looking into but could do with a slightly clearer description/guide for us thickies. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

the.FliX
03-25-2007, 04:05 AM
ok http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yeah I have to admit the last post of mine is a little bit confusing and chaotic... well, I was in a hurry and I am no native speaker. Ok next try:

Basically, all you need to determine the speed of a target on a constant course are 2 points of sighting on the map and the time between those 2 points, right? This will give you its course and speed, completely with its bow on angle.

To get those 2 (or more) points you have to do what I tried to explain above.
start by identifying your target. Measure its distance, note the angle you see the target under in the periscope, and start the stopwatch (X and click the wheel on top of the watch to trigger it). Go to the nav map (pause the game). First you draw a circle around your boat with the radius matching the distance you measured (you have to convert yards int nm first). Then you use the compass tool. This tool is normalized to the magnetic north, so you can't just draw a line to the angle you noted before in that dial, unless your heading is exactly 0?. You get the idea. For example, if your heading is 15? and you saw the enemy on 10?, the angle you need to plot is 25?, right?. So draw a line at 25? in this case. Where this line hits the circle you mark your first sighting.
Now you wait a couple of minutes (take whole minutes to make the calculation easier). Let's say you waited 2 Minutes (the moment of taking the new measurements is important, not the time you draw on the map of course). Now you do the whole procedure from above again to get your second point on the map. Use the ruler to measure the distance between those 2 points.

Let's say the target moved 0,4 nm in 2 minutes. You want to get its speed in knots (=nm per hour). 2 minutes is 1/30 of an hour. 0,4 * 30 = 12. Your targets speed is 12 knots. On top of that, with the exact course of the target plotted on your map you can easily use the compass tool to see under which angle the target would see you, the angle on bow. Now you have a really good set of values for a hit.

Hope this was clearer now.

mauros1964
03-25-2007, 06:58 AM
Ok, but i would have the speed tool functioning. I am searching the optimal balance between playability and realism, and the speed tool is, for me, very important!!!
Please, help!!!

Kinjin13
03-25-2007, 07:34 AM
@ the.Flix

Cheers, a lot clear and I think I'll give it a go. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

@ mauros1964

But if the watch is bugged, it gives us an option to try while waiting for the patch? the. And that has to be better then just being told to wait for a patch?

mauros1964
03-25-2007, 07:42 AM
for kinjin13: Yeah, but my money was good without a patch!!!!.

The problem, for me, is that i want choose how much realism put in the game (options are made for....). the solution illustrated is very good, but a bit hard for me (not so casual gamer but not so hardcore sailorman!!!!)

the.FliX
03-25-2007, 07:55 AM
@mauros: it sounds harder than it is. You don't have to think at all once you have got the hang of it. It's a bit time consuming, yeah, but it's not rocket science, and I have no clue of naval navigation as well.

Undertaker0001
03-25-2007, 08:35 AM
Hmmm..i found 3 issues so far:

1. The "empty" box i am supposed to check to indetify a ship is PERMANENTLY checked with a red mar.

2. The Chronometer is useless and it never read a ships speed.

3. You are , after having a ship "locked" supposed to be able to aim for different compartmenst of the ship..i cannot do this since the croaahairs is stuck at center of the ship.

crawlee2
03-25-2007, 08:39 AM
The explaination for manual charting and targeting goes back to SH3 and Paul Wasserman's great tutorial found at http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII.
My only gripe is that we have to use the metric system to use the method! I bought into the idea of metric play since SHIII was a German UBoat simulation. Now, we are simulating the American campaign and the use of the metric system is BULL! The 1.1 patch only changes a few metric conditions, not all.

Kinjin13
03-25-2007, 08:43 AM
@ Mauros1964

Never doudted the worth of your money. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

To me there are 3 main options.
1. Return the game.
2. Wait for the patch.
3. Try work arounds while waiting for the patch.

I view the.Flix's post as helping me with option 3, when I thought I was stuck on 2. It's not as hard as it sounds, although I've only practiced in the sub school http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and the map tools aren't that accurate but it's an option.

(By not accurate I mean they show nm to one decimal place.)

Muahzadeen
03-25-2007, 08:54 AM
Easy method of accurately taking the speed of target, regardless of AOB is to plot the target track, mark point 1, then use the chronometer to measure six minutes. Plot point B, mutliply end result by ten = their speed in knots, imperial measurements.

i.e. 0.9nm x 10 = 9 knots and soforth.

now all i need to do is work out how to use the damn attack computer.

the.FliX
03-25-2007, 09:21 AM
@Kinjin

Yeah. The accuracy is an issue. But you already have big uncertainties in your initial measurements (range), so going for 3 or more decimals is out of league anyway. But I agree, 2 decimals would be more than helpful. I solve it by hovering back and forth to discover the next decimal step and then interpolate. After all, it's guesswork. And then, don't be greedy with your torpedos, fire salvos.

@crawlee: Nice that there's a good tutorial, haven't seen that one yet. But generally, it's just very basic geometry...

CableRouter
04-01-2007, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by crawlee2:
My only gripe is that we have to use the metric system to use the method! I bought into the idea of metric play since SHIII was a German UBoat simulation. Now, we are simulating the American campaign and the use of the metric system is BULL! The 1.1 patch only changes a few metric conditions, not all.

If you want to use yards, it's easy enough. Make your time of observation 3 minutes and it becomes 1 knot per 100 yards. One easy way to read yards is to draw a circle between the start and end points with the compass tool, zoom in and then slide the start point under the 0 mark on the ruler in the upper left of the map. Where the compas circle crosses the ruler is the range in yards; zoom in as much as you can and still put the circle on the scale for greatest accuracy.

As your plotting speed and accuracy increase, you can get by with smaller and smaller times. 90 seconds is 1 knot per 50 yards
54 seconds is 1 knot per 30 yards
45 seconds is 1 knot per 25 yards
36 seconds is 1 knot per 20 yards

mike_scheck
04-01-2007, 03:17 PM
ur plotting speed and accuracy increase, you can get by with smaller and smaller times. 90 seconds is 1 knot per 50 yards
54 seconds is 1 knot per 30 yards
45 seconds is 1 knot per 25 yards
36 seconds is 1 knot per 20 yards


I find it amusing that all the mathematical solutions are being offered as a workaround. I think people offering them up haven't played the game much.

You can not accurately measure yards from the map. If you use imperial, it only gives you nautical miles for measurement. The lowest distance that can be measured is .1 nautical miles. You can switch to metric and also do .1 km.

The real problem is that the tool to measure distance is complete garbage. Try running a line along the scale at the top of the map and measuring it. .1km shows up well below the 68 meter mark on the scale. You have to use a combination of guesswork and poor measurements to come up with any sort of firing solution.

Simply having better tools on the map would allow you to use more reaslistic methods for a TDC solution, but as is the game is broken. Short holding a compass against the monitor, and comparing that to the scale, you are out of luck.

EinsteinEP
04-01-2007, 03:45 PM
I use the Ruler and Marker tool on the nav page in conjuction with the Stopwatch (as it currently is in Patch 1.1 of SH4) along with a desktop calculator and I do just fine getting speed measurements in tactical situations. They're not instantaneous measurements, like some of you arcade-game players out there are used to, but hey, real sub skippers didn't get to push a button and automatically get speed, y'know!

*Note: There are some other bugs that play into the targeting system (e.g., torpedo speed), but those workarounds are discussed elsewhere.

I use the Marker tool to mark the very bow of the target on the map (this won't work with No Map Contact Update, which makes me a bit of a hypocrite, I guess - real skippers didn't get real-time updates on their charts!) and start the Stopwatch as close to the same time as I can. It doesn't have to be synchronized exactly, although I guess you can make the mark ahead of the ship, anticipating where it will be in a few seconds, and then start the Stopwatch at just the right time).

Then, I use the Ruler tool to start a line from that point along the course of my target (0.0 NM on the first mark, increasing in the direction of the ship's course). I keep refining the Ruler's position so the bow of the ship is cruising right down the line. Sometimes I'll add more marks for the ship's bow to help me keep the Ruler in line.

When the bow of the target gets close the 0.3 NM tic on the ruler, I bring up the Stopwatch again ('X' key) and write down the precise time in seconds that the bow crosses that point.

Then it's a simple matter of math (something real skippers had to be good at!). Without doing all the derivation here, you take the distance (0.3 NM) and divide it by the time in hours (hint: there are 3600 seconds in an hour) to get the target's speed nautical miles per hour, also known as knots. [ed: the original formula is DISTANCE = RATE * TIME]

This result is only an estimate, though, not a precise and exact value for the very reasons that are being griped about in this forum. So, I make another time measurement at the 0.5 NM and 0.9 NM tics (there's no 1.0 NM tic, although I suspect the 1.1 tic is really 1.0). I get a smattering of values (e.g., 6.8 kts, 7.4 kts, 7.1 kts), but average for a number good enough to put into my solution (7 kts).

In theory, the longer apart your measurements, the more accurate the results, but with the intentionally introudced errors , I wouldn't bet a fish on it!

If you're shooting from up close and for a broadside impact, this method will help you paint a hole on the target's hull practically every time (see *Note above!).

[]_---_[] KITT
04-01-2007, 11:14 PM
Well i tried this method of drawing lines etc and it took too long and i ended up screwed because the target has passed my bow...and while i busily drawing the first sketch more than a minute was wasted...or should i time the moment i took the first range and bearing?

Simply said: Easier said than done guys. Mainly due to ineffective tools. Faster if i use hand instead.

CableRouter
04-01-2007, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by mike_scheck:

I find it amusing that all the mathematical solutions are being offered as a workaround. I think people offering them up haven't played the game much.

I find it amusing that someone being critical of my method didn't even bother to try it, or even comprehend it.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/1320/screenot2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That sure looks like a measurement in Yards to me. I'd say it was in the neighborhood of 280 yards. Given that it was a 54 second plot, that would make the speed 9.1 knots. Looks pretty damn close to 9 knots to me; I'll attribute the other .1 knots to my error in plotting the fixes.

CableRouter
04-02-2007, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by EinsteinEP:

When the bow of the target gets close the 0.3 NM tic on the ruler, I bring up the Stopwatch again ('X' key) and write down the precise time in seconds that the bow crosses that point.

Just keep in mind (for your math), that the range tool rounds the distance. It will flip over from .2nm to .3nm when it crosses the 250m point.


In theory, the longer apart your measurements, the more accurate the results, but with the intentionally introudced errors , I wouldn't bet a fish on it!

This part is true, the longer your line, the smaller a percentage a 50 meter (maximum) rounding error counts towards the total. But compensating for the rounding error (by selecting a x50 yard distance, 250, 350, 450 ect) you can minimize the impact on your calculation.

CableRouter
04-02-2007, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by []_---_[] KITT:
Well i tried this method of drawing lines etc and it took too long and i ended up screwed because the target has passed my bow...and while i busily drawing the first sketch more than a minute was wasted...or should i time the moment i took the first range and bearing?

Simply said: Easier said than done guys. Mainly due to ineffective tools. Faster if i use hand instead.

Practice helps, it shouldn't take you more than 20-30 seconds to plot a range and bearing on the navigation map. Yes, it might already be across your bow if you use a 3 minute plot, but that's still alright. Getting a 30-60 degree hit with a torpedo still works.

And the Torpedo School isn't exactly a usual case, you rarely detect a target that close to you for the first time. But you can buy yourself some time; when you first spot the cruiser you can clearly see that it's moving in a easterly direction. So, as soon as you note that, change your course to east and go to standard speed. Now instead of the cruiser blowing by you at 9 knots, it's only passing you by 2 knots. That gives you a lot more time to make your plots and determine target speed and course more precisely.

Kohr-Ah
04-02-2007, 02:52 AM
Charting is a bit tedious, but makes it more realistic. Its going to be inaccurate because the manual says so, that the map measurements has an error margin built into it (page 60) to prevent us from getting precise measurements for the firing solution. I just put it in as human error. 2/3 torpedo hits ain't bad for me. The issue of metric vs imperial units is a bit annoying but i guess necessary.