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View Full Version : how long did it take to pigeons get a city camouflage?



raaaid
04-06-2008, 09:50 AM
http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/b0/94/9dda_1.JPG

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/graphics/pigeon1.jpg

raaaid
04-06-2008, 09:50 AM
http://i8.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/b0/94/9dda_1.JPG

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/living/graphics/pigeon1.jpg

HotelBushranger
04-06-2008, 09:54 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

raaaid
04-06-2008, 10:12 AM
and let me ask you something how many people in the world do you think realized of this?

maybe 1k? then my brain works

maybe even im the 1st to publish it

id say pigeons are grey from the last 50 years, think in cities all ground is grey

R_Target
04-06-2008, 10:28 AM
Pigeons live in the country too. Why aren't they green?

Bremspropeller
04-06-2008, 10:31 AM
B/C the pigeons in our cities are actually rock-habitants.
Thatswhy they're grey.

They've just adopted from rock to skyscraper.
Fortunately, their greatest enemy, peregrine falcon, has as well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

raaaid
04-06-2008, 10:40 AM
wild pigeons are brown which makes sense against the rotten leaves of the ground which are brown

the city militar camouflage and the city pigeon camouflage cant be identical by coincidence

and how long have cities been grey?

i dont believe a single word from the media

if you show me any extended grey in nature ill change my mind, nature doesnt like grey just men in grey do

Pirschjaeger
04-06-2008, 10:43 AM
I think the city adapted to the pigeons. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

mortoma
04-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Originally that particualr species of bird lived in rocky, cliffy areas usually in mountainous terrain. They evolved that color long before there were any cities on this planets. Even before ancient cities like Rome.
Raaid, I'd think you'd be able to figure this out. It's an easy one........

mortoma
04-06-2008, 01:25 PM
Here in the US, they have taken up residence underneath bridges and highway overpasses. I think there are probably no bridges or overpasses left in the 48 contiguous states that don't have Pigeons living under them. I am serious, I bet there are none.

DuxCorvan
04-06-2008, 01:45 PM
Contrarily to "industrial" moths, pigeons have not adapted, raaaid. They've always been grey.

You're confusing it with turtle dove and with the passenger pigeon/dove (once a very common bird, now extinct), colored species which are very closely related to common pigeons but are not the same species.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
and let me ask you something how many people in the world do you think realized of this?

maybe 1k? then my brain works

maybe even im the 1st to publish it

id say pigeons are grey from the last 50 years, think in cities all ground is grey </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, raaaid, you're not the first saying silly things in internet. BTW, I -as anyone interested in evolution- thought once the same years ago, but bothered myself in doing a fast research before saying it before anyone and "quedar con el culo al aire". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
04-06-2008, 02:58 PM
Another 2 minutes of my life wasted.

Metatron_123
04-06-2008, 03:01 PM
LOL

waffen-79
04-06-2008, 03:56 PM
Peregrine Falcon is no longer a menace for pigeons

everyone knows pigeon's number 1 enemy is either a TEMPEST or a Ta-152C, BE SURE!

raaaid
04-07-2008, 05:55 AM
how do you know what pigeons looked like 2000 years ago?

no pictures and historians were to busy talking of slaughterings

pigeons consume high doses of concrete as they eat from the ground, that could have had changed their colour really fast

as to evolution being faster in my opinion than they tell us take this example:

i went once to visit a local roman ruins, they were my ancestors, and they measured 150cm, i am 183cm tall, and its a quite known thing every generation is taller, everybody knows it, THIS IS AGAINST SCIENTIFIC BELIEF, evolution is supposed to be much slower but everybody knows every generation is taller

you have to think a lot to caught the lies of the system but if you do you find them

WN_Barbarossa
04-07-2008, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
pigeons consume high doses of concrete as they eat from the ground, that could have had changed their colour really fast </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Errmm, Raaaid, there's a saying "you are what you eat" but don't take it so literally.
BTW if "a pigeon consumes high doses of concrete" it will be unable to fly. Or just simply dies.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
i went once to visit a local roman ruins, they were my ancestors, and they measured 150cm, i am 183cm tall, and its a quite known thing every generation is taller, everybody knows it, THIS IS AGAINST SCIENTIFIC BELIEF, evolution is supposed to be much slower but everybody knows every generation is taller </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well actually there is a scientific explanation to this: your ancestors ate much less meat/protein then you during their childhood, and this limited their growing.

Whirlin_merlin
04-07-2008, 11:35 AM
Some stuff on the pigeon.

http://pages.unibas.ch/dbmw/medbiol/haag_6.html

Incase it hasn't got through the ferel pigeon is discended from the rock dove, a cliff dwelling species with very similar colouration and markings to a typical pigeon. There has been no big chane to 'city camouflage'. The wide variety or markings and colourings you see in some pigeon populations are due to cross breeding with domesticated 'fancy' pigeons, which are the result of selective breeding.

As to your height issue, Barb' is right height is not just a result of genes but like most things the interaction of genes and the environment in this case nutrition and childhood disease.

BTW Evolution by natural selection can happen very quickly 'google' MRSA for one example.

DuxCorvan
04-07-2008, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
how do you know what pigeons looked like 2000 years ago?

no pictures and historians were to busy talking of slaughterings </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://premium1.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan//Roman_Pigeon.jpg

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">pigeons consume high doses of concrete as they eat from the ground, that could have had changed their colour really fast </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) Concrete has no active colorants. Only active colorants can change the color of bird's feathers.

2) Even if it had, and birds ate it, it must be digested to have effect. Birds' digestive system cannot digest concrete.

3) Sometimes birds swallow small stones. They don't use them as food. They use them as grain grinders in their systems. You should know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">evolution is supposed to be much slower </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Flu virus mutates every season. Scientists have never said evolution HAS to be always slow.

And being taller has been already explained by the posters above.

Raaaid, do your homework.

falling-bird
04-07-2008, 03:25 PM
Actually, there's a well documented case of an animal adapting its colouration to city circumstances. The Peppered moth changed its colours in reaction to the darkening of the environment during the Industrial Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

You'd expect it to happen, and it did.

joeap
04-07-2008, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:

Raaaid, do your homework. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1 Anyway can't stand those birds "rats with wings" and all, spoiled my balcony as some roosted in the apartment above mine which was vacant til recently ... bleah.

major_setback
04-07-2008, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">evolution is supposed to be much slower </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Flu virus mutates every season. Scientists have never said evolution HAS to be always slow.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just out of interest. Evolution can work very quickly. If, say, 5% of a population have a gene that makes them immune to a virus, this may within a generation be found in most of that population : those surviving an epidemic of that virus.

Species with high reproductive rates adapt more quickly than those with slow rates of reproduction. i.e If a chemical is found to kill 80% of cockroaches it may become totally useless in a few years, as the resistant individuals breed and multiply rapidly.

DuxCorvan
04-08-2008, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">evolution is supposed to be much slower </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Flu virus mutates every season. Scientists have never said evolution HAS to be always slow.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just out of interest. Evolution can work very quickly. If, say, 5% of a population have a gene that makes them immune to a virus, this may within a generation be found in most of that population : those surviving an epidemic of that virus.

Species with high reproductive rates adapt more quickly than those with slow rates of reproduction. i.e If a chemical is found to kill 80% of cockroaches it may become totally useless in a few years, as the resistant individuals breed and multiply rapidly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact, that's the way the bacteria become "resistant" to antibiotics. Stopping the treatment before time -just because symptoms have disappeared- allows some bacteria to survive: precisely the strongest of them, which would be the last to die, and will form the next generation of "strong" bacteria.

That's also why pox and plague epidemics became less lethal through the centuries: the survivors of the preceding generation were more resistant to those illnesses, and formed the genetical backbone of the next generation.

And that's why modern medicine is spreading the seeds of a future humankind with extremely weak immunological systems. By saving our generation from illness, we are cutting the mechanisms of natural selection, and we may be dooming our future.

MEGILE
04-08-2008, 09:52 AM
Dux, have you heard of the use of Bacteriophages (bacterial virus) to treat infections instead of antibiotics?

Fascinating stuff.. apparently big in Russia.

MOH_MADMAN
04-08-2008, 12:08 PM
nondomestic pigeons come in many stripes and colors. The pigeons in high towns of Tibet and other far reaches of the planet have the same colorings.

Funny tho, bout a month ago driving on the freeway in traffic going about 65mph, there was this pigeon flying just off our bumper, keeping up with traffic, and darting bumper high in and out of the lanes of traffic lika a kid on a superbike. Then after about 1.5 miles, he hauled off on the next exit, proly to visit some dairy farm feed stores just off the freeway. Was surreal that speed, agility and all out enjoyment that bird was getting form his thrill seeking freeway flight. I have never seen anything like this in my life before, gotta love it.

DuxCorvan
04-08-2008, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Dux, have you heard of the use of Bacteriophages (bacterial virus) to treat infections instead of antibiotics?

Fascinating stuff.. apparently big in Russia. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have, but playing God with those things gives me the chills. I mean, virus are incredibly adaptable. I wouldn't play with virus capabilities, for they may -and if they may, they will- turn one day against us.

Besides, not all bacteria are bad, and who will stop the virus from killing them once they start mutating on their own?

BSS_AIJO
04-08-2008, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Dux, have you heard of the use of Bacteriophages (bacterial virus) to treat infections instead of antibiotics?

Fascinating stuff.. apparently big in Russia. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have, but playing God with those things gives me the chills. I mean, virus are incredibly adaptable. I wouldn't play with virus capabilities, for they may -and if they may, they will- turn one day against us.

Besides, not all bacteria are bad, and who will stop the virus from killing them once they start mutating on their own? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently the playing has been going on for some time. Now with the new super versions of of bacteria we are needing new ways to keep fighting. This time around we should kill and burn the bodies of the fools who fail to follow the instructions on the bottle of antibiotics they get for strep throat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BSS_AIJO

major_setback
04-09-2008, 07:44 AM
Pigeon photographer WWI:

"Pigeons outfitted with tiny cameras were released over military sites. As the birds flew, the cameras continuously clicked away, snapping pictures to be developed and interpreted when the pigeons reached their destination."

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/13/pigeoncamera1.jpg

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/13/pigeoncamera2.jpg