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Abbuzze
08-12-2004, 02:20 AM
After a lot of explanations why a lot of the MK108 bullets are useless (angle of the hit, kind of ammo..) Are there any pictures of fighters surviving such a hit?? If not, why?
I saw a lot of battledamadged bombers with different hits 88mm, 20mm and also 30mm hits.
Same for fighters, HMG hits, 20mm but I never found a picture with the title fighter with a 30mm hit in his wing...
If someone was more succsessfull in this quest, please post the picture here!
Thanks!!!

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif

Abbuzze
08-12-2004, 02:20 AM
After a lot of explanations why a lot of the MK108 bullets are useless (angle of the hit, kind of ammo..) Are there any pictures of fighters surviving such a hit?? If not, why?
I saw a lot of battledamadged bombers with different hits 88mm, 20mm and also 30mm hits.
Same for fighters, HMG hits, 20mm but I never found a picture with the title fighter with a 30mm hit in his wing...
If someone was more succsessfull in this quest, please post the picture here!
Thanks!!!

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif

F19_Ob
08-12-2004, 02:44 AM
Personally I dont doubt that u can survive a 30 mm hit in a fighter. What is more doubtable is to survive two hits.
One hit cripples u, and allied fighters that got hit most likely didnt make it back over the channel, or long distances.
A crippled bomber or fighter leaving a bloodtrail will soon be detected by sharks nearby. Yep... that did happen in RL too.

Not a full answer to your question, but a few more variables to contemplate on.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have seen pictures of fighters with no "fin", one remaining elevator, a third of a wing shot off or badly severed wings and fuselages and wheels gone.
Some of them may be 30mm hits.

I have seen them online, in books and I may even have a few in my archive...but that would probably take days to find for me...sry, cant help here.

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Thu August 12 2004 at 01:55 AM.]

Tooz_69GIAP
08-12-2004, 04:01 AM
Guys, I know you are obsessed and convinced that everything concering german weaponry in the game is porked, but please take a look at the 37mm cannon on the P-39.

Last night I flew in a forgotten skies mission, and I flew a P-39. I managed to down two 109F-4s.

First one I lined up on, hit him with two good 37mm round on his left side rear fuselage - not a scratch. I downed him with MGs.

The second one, I hit him smack on the back of the tail with a 37mm round. Nothing, nada. I hit him again, and I take off his left elevator; ok, some progress at least. I then hit him a third time on the rear fuselage just aft of the left wing root. Nothing. I hit him a fourth time with the 37mm on his belly just aft of the wing root, and finally his tail comes off.

WTF?????????????????

My squad, the 69th, flies the P-39 regularly because the real life 69th flew the P-39 from August '43 til the end of the war, and we have flown it since at least version 1.11. The effectiveness of the 37mm on that aircraft has not changed at all in that time.

I don't know if requiring several hits from this weapon to down a lightly armoured fighter aircraft is realistic or not, but surely it must do more damage than it currently does???

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

RotGolem
08-12-2004, 04:21 AM
P-39 hits on the enemy are always... strange.

The only constant element I can see is the big black explosion they cause, flak-like, and very often to no effect on the enemy.
I can understand the wrong biting angle I get from the straight 6, but I get the same result from different angles and deflections...

Other times, the smoke trail (tracer?) of the bullet goes straight through the enemy to no effect.

Other times, a wingtip hit results in a catastrophic explosion, and sometimes I get the same from a very short burst of MGs on the belly of the enemy (with P-39 only).
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

F19_Ob
08-12-2004, 04:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Guys, I know you are obsessed and convinced that everything concering german weaponry in the game is porked<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually, wasnt talking about FB, and....Im not convinced or obsessed at all, he he. ( a bit crazy though)


Anyway, My view on damage in FB is following;
Nowadays I think most weapons work pretty good after my tests. Its more an issue of "actual" damage and "visual" damage.
I suspect many have no real grip of this relation since it requires hundreds of tests and most haven't time to spend on that. I'm sadly unable to do much at all. but such test I still manage and detailed comparisons and variations has always been a hobby ( wierd ,I know) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif
----------------------------------------------


I still have some testing to do but I will post a longer piece of my findings and this relation between "actual" damage and "visual" damage. ( could be fun).

By the way I did test the p39 cannon aswell ( p39 is one of my favs) It has flatter trajectory and also works best with some pauses between rounds.
Its not comparable with german 30mm in deflection. The 109 have slightly better hit probability due too more rounds/min, but according to my test (40+ missions each ), the p39 downed more planes with single cannon bops than the 109.

I equally like both ac so I dont think I'm too biassed.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Another important part of testing that I belive most forget, is to be on the receiveing end of the weapon tested.

------------------------------------------------
Additional note:

All my test, past and future ones too may not show the true story. They are done out of curiosity and amusement and kind of a substitute for other things I'm unable to do anymore. Some may enjoy and contemplate on the results, while others may not......this is the way of things.

He, he........untouchable now ?

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Thu August 12 2004 at 04:25 AM.]

WUAF_Badsight
08-12-2004, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
but please take a look at the 37mm cannon on the P-39.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this isnt a P-39 thread

move along . . . . nothing "airacobra" to see here folks

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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WUAF_Badsight
08-12-2004, 05:32 AM
BTW . . . . for german guns ......... FB v1.22 was the "Golden Age"

they were finally correct . . . . the MG151/15 & 20 could finally do damadge

the Mk108 got the accuracy toned down in the first patch (cause it was wrong) but for the longest time the MG151 got worse & worse

when AEP got released . . . . it went to as bad as it has ever been hit power wise

mebe its worst

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Red_Storm
08-12-2004, 06:03 AM
as far as I can see the dollowing is what's going on weapons wise:

P-39 cannon is totally porked

P-63 cannon is totally porked

MK-108 is totally porked

MG-151/20 and MG-151/20E are totally porked/useless

UBS is way overmodeled

M2 .50 is way overmodeled

Hispano... don't even get me started on that! It does about as much damage as an MK-103! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and urgh... I have to slip this in here too, Japanese planes... my God, they're so easy my grandmother could fly them, and she's dead. Please, please, please tone them down. There couldn't be a bigger contrast betweem German and Japanese planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

---

WUAF_Badsight
08-12-2004, 06:17 AM
based on . . . . ?

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Red_Storm
08-12-2004, 06:26 AM
Based on 4.5 years of playing IL2.

---

Huckebein_UK
08-12-2004, 06:29 AM
Ok, I don't want to get into an argument with anyone - I can down enemy planes perfectly easily with the MK 108 as it is - but here's the pics someone asked for:

The hit...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Storyboard/04.jpg

...the result.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Storyboard/05.jpg

Note no serious structural damage, and I've a feeling the spin had more to do with the angle and airspeed combined with the force of the hit.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--------------
Huckebein_UK

"I saw the men; I just couldn't do it!" -- Franz Stiegler after escorting Charles Brown's crippled B-17 across the North Sea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Sigs/13937.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=13937)
Click pic to download. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WUAF_Badsight
08-12-2004, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
Based on 4.5 years of playing IL2.

---<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


oh silly me . . . . .

there i was thinking there was some excellent data just waiting to be sprung on us all to show what was wrong
.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Huckebein_UK
08-12-2004, 06:33 AM
On the other hand...

BANG goes the gun...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Storyboard/06.jpg

BANG goes the Yak (after one hit)...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Storyboard/07.jpg

and then BANG goes my wing...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Storyboard/08.jpg

and BANG goes my beautiful plane... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Storyboard/09.jpg

Just thought you may want to see that there's two sides to every story. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PS. For the full story behind these shots, look here: http://forums.il2skins.com/viewtopic.php?t=4796

--------------
Huckebein_UK

"I saw the men; I just couldn't do it!" -- Franz Stiegler after escorting Charles Brown's crippled B-17 across the North Sea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Sigs/13937.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=13937)
Click pic to download. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Red_Storm
08-12-2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
Based on 4.5 years of playing IL2.

---<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


oh silly me . . . . .

there i was thinking there was some excellent data just waiting to be sprung on us all to show what was wrong
.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you seriously want me to go look for pictures of B-17's and fighters shot by MK108's? Pictures that were posted here years ago? I tell you, in those pictures one hit simply ripped those planes apart. Just do a search on google pictures.

---

WUAF_Badsight
08-12-2004, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:

Do you seriously want me to go look for pictures of B-17's and fighters shot by MK108's? Pictures that were posted here years ago? I tell you, in those pictures one hit simply ripped those planes apart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


and what the hell would that count for ?

do you also know the exact details behind any picture you could post !

seriously , if thats all your going on . . . . then go & study a hell of a lot more

fact is . . . . gah im not bothering
this is what the guns in FB are composed of

should do you for a start

posted 08/14/02 12:56PM


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:




Here is the direct table of shells and bullets from source code of IL-2.
Comments:

power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).

T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive

such line destinated the sequence of shells/bullets:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API


Table itself.
==========================


Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

M4
// HET - (APT/HET)

HET
mass = 0.604
speed = 612.0
power = 0.044

MG 131
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.035
speed = 710.0
power = 0.00148

AP
mass = 0.034
speed = 750.0
power = 0

MG 15
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.0128
speed = 760.0
power = 0

MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019

AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

MG 17
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0

MG 81
// AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 920.0
power = 0

MG/FF
// APIT - HE - HE - MG

APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 580.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 585.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 690.0
power = 0.0186

MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072

HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072

NS-37
// HEIT - APT

HEIT
mass = 0.735
speed = 900.0
power = 0.0406

APT
mass = 0.760
speed = 880.0
power = 0

NS-45
// HEIT - AP

HEIT
mass = 1.065
speed = 780.0
power = 0.052

AP
mass = 1.000
speed = 850.0
power = 0.0

PaK40
// HEIT

HEIT
mass = 6.800
speed = 770.0
power = 0.680

ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
mass = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0.0005

API
mass = 0.0096
speed = 871.0
power = 0.0005

T
massa = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0

ShVAK
// APIT - HE

APIT
mass = 0.096
speed = 800.0
power = 0.001

HE
mass = 0.0676
speed = 800.0
power = 0.0068

UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128)

VYa
// SIT - API - API

SIT
mass = 0.195
speed = 890.0
power = 0.0156

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008


-------------

If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you see , bullet mass & speed & HE content is moddeled in FB (regarding HE content , FB does a poor job *as compared to API moddeling* of moddeling HE explosion power)

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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Red_Storm
08-12-2004, 06:58 AM
And how do you know that's how the guns are modeled? If that's all you're going on, you'd better study more pictures of WWII planes hit by MK108 shells.

http://pages.ykt.ru/il2/Hronika/photohronika/30mm%20mk108%20on%20blenheim.jpg
MK108 hit

http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/b17/b17hole.gif
MK108 hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/tail3.jpg
MG151/20E hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/side1.gif
MK108 hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/sidehole.jpg
MK108 hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder5.gif
MG151/20E hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder100.jpg
MK108 hit

Seeing as this is what ONE HIT does to a HEAVY BOMBER, it's hard for me to imagine how a fighter in IL-2 can take up to six, sometimes even twice as many hits. But well, I guess you sure showed me with your table!

---

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2004, 07:12 AM
That table is interesting....

Look at the power of the Hispano Suiza HE:

Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

(Note: absolutely NO explosive power in the AP rounds)

vs. the power rating of the German 20mm gun:

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

Look at those Minengeschoss rounds! Perhaps we German pilots need to belt up only with those!!!! Smaller mass, but greater speed and much bigger BOOM. There seems to be NO benefit to the HE round besides a slightly larger mass.

Also, I still wonder why, when the Hispano gun is firing 50% AP rounds with no charge in them, how they seem to destroy oil pans with the absolute smallest bursts so often. Did they have "radar-assisted engine seeking" capability?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

OldMan____
08-12-2004, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
And how do you know that's how the guns are modeled? If that's all you're going on, you'd better study more pictures of WWII planes hit by MK108 shells.

http://pages.ykt.ru/il2/Hronika/photohronika/30mm%20mk108%20on%20blenheim.jpg
MK108 hit

http://www.star-games.com/exhibits/b17/b17hole.gif
MK108 hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/tail3.jpg
MG151/20E hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/side1.gif
MK108 hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/sidehole.jpg
MK108 hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder5.gif
MG151/20E hit

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder100.jpg
MK108 hit

Seeing as this is what ONE HIT does to a HEAVY BOMBER, it's hard for me to imagine how a fighter in IL-2 can take up to six, sometimes even twice as many hits. But well, I guess you sure showed me with your table!

---<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yesterday I decided to make a long test session (2 hours). Mainly againt p51.. using ALL guns in game.. from .303 to Mk103.

REsult.. NO WEAPON.. exception to MK103 and those uge 45 mm russian cannons are high effective againt P51 from DEAD six.. to step angle. Even The Mk103 I needed to deliver 3 or 4 bullets untill crippling the plane. BUT.. the second part of test.. (45 degree angle attack on plane side) shows that P51 is vulnerable to ANYTHING but .303 and simmilar guns.. 3 or 4 .50 bullets put its engine out.. while 3 or 4 20 mm german bullets put plane in flame. Never needed more than 2 Mk108 to cripple the p51 from this angle (all teste included shoting down 6 friendly planes in each situation). MK103 just desintegrate the p51 from these angles.

rifle caliber weapons are not efective (german and western allies ) unless at very lucky shots.


So .. forget dead 6 shots on P51... you usually need 12 to 20 20 mm bullets hitting it from dead 6 to hurt it.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

karost
08-12-2004, 07:26 AM
Hi,Abbuzze and friends here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I need to add some request to your post and hope you will agree http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


anyone has some information where I can find and download gun camera footage from Luftwaffe for Mk108, and MG 151/20 I mean free to download for us.

Thank you
Karost

kyzan
08-12-2004, 07:31 AM
Hi guys ... i have one track of plane P63 surviving more then one hit of MK108 ona some other weapons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

here is it ... http://193.179.236.40/kyza/track/

Enjoj http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
CSL_Kyza

Cippacometa
08-12-2004, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
yesterday I decided to make a long test session (2 hours). Mainly againt p51.. using ALL guns in game.. from .303 to Mk103.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget that in FB the plate armour behind the cockpit is modeled.
Thus, a dead 6 hit hardly will cause any serious structural/engine/pilot damage
Explosive shells of MKs can splinter the fuselage, but 20mm or less can do much less.
The most effective shots are those form 5 o 7 rather than 6, in order to hit the engine in the nose, the pilot or the fuel tanks.

NorrisMcWhirter
08-12-2004, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kyzan:
Hi guys ... i have one track of plane P63 surviving more then one hit of MK108 ona some other weapons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

here is it ... http://193.179.236.40/kyza/track/

Enjoj http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

CSL_Kyza<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, m8 - I don't even need to look at that track to know it will be the sorry sight of a P63 successfully surviving another mk108 pounding. Just out of curiosity, if he gets hit 3 times, does only his elevator fall off?

Cheers,
Norris

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'Bugs? What bugs?'
'AAA steals online kills, crash landing if good landing but out of fuel, muzzle flashes, kill given for planes that have landed OK, AI steals offline kills, gauges not working, Spitfire never overheats, FW190 view, P63 damage model, weird collision modelling...'
'Yeah, but look on the bright side - at least the 0.50s are fixed!'
Moral: $$$ + whining = anything is possible

karost
08-12-2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cippacometa:
Don't forget that in FB the plate armour behind the cockpit is modeled.
Thus, a dead 6 hit hardly will cause any serious structural/engine/pilot damage
Explosive shells of MKs can splinter the fuselage, but 20mm or less can do much less.
The most effective shots are those form 5 o 7 rather than 6, in order to hit the engine in the nose, the pilot or the fuel tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

humm.. interesting me much, at greater green server I test 190D can down Spritfire and P-38 at dead 6 but p-47 and p-51 very hard.

well... we still have mk108 right? and I just develop some tactic to knock p-51 this tactic require surprise situation and some crazy drive you can see my idea from my track file here:

ta152 crazy surprise (http://www.allthaiproperties.com/bmax/fb/track/k41ta152D.ntrk)
109G6 crazy surprise (http://www.allthaiproperties.com/bmax/fb/track/k42109gasD.ntrk)

may be you like it, p-51 no chance to surviving , it is easy tactic.

S!

ucanfly
08-12-2004, 10:43 AM
Based on Gun camera footage I've seen over the years dead six DM on all planes is waaaay overmoddelled. It's been like this for a long time.

WUAF_Badsight
08-12-2004, 11:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
it's hard for me to imagine how a fighter in IL-2 can take up to six, sometimes even twice as many hits. But well, I guess you sure showed me with your table!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yer damm stright i did

now back to study for you so you can come back here & tell us how you was wrong & how Mk108 shells actually bounce off sometimes without getting inside to explode

as that is what is needed for them to do devestation

merely exploding on the outside of a A/C wont do anywhere near the damadge that can be seen in the british Mk108 tests

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Dawg-of-death
08-12-2004, 11:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
as far as I can see the dollowing is what's going on weapons wise:

P-39 cannon is totally porked

P-63 cannon is totally porked

MK-108 is totally porked

MG-151/20 and MG-151/20E are totally porked/useless

UBS is way overmodeled

M2 .50 is way overmodeled

Hispano... don't even get me started on that! It does about as much damage as an MK-103! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and urgh... I have to slip this in here too, Japanese planes... my God, they're so easy my grandmother could fly them, and she's dead. Please, please, please tone them down. There couldn't be a bigger contrast betweem German and Japanese planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

---<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I'm investing in Poked futures ..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

WUAF_Badsight
08-13-2004, 12:10 AM
hes right about the UBS V.V.S gun tho

was the only MG in FB that was doing a greater than RL distance

& the hispanos were (tracers) dissapering at 900 meters

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WTE_Galway
08-13-2004, 12:22 AM
hmmm MK103 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


0.50 cal ?? you call that a gun ? THIS is a gun ....


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgAAAFEXSIh3BKw19!arygqA5dMWLcwm4J7gALgcRNNV!o!rv oZ53hcr1hlEz!KpdyAVSU7iwVl5zZTNzzF8F1yIfAmWrTKSFJq OPKex1RCIqgcKxgsW9w/aircraftrounds.jpg

TotenTanzen
08-13-2004, 04:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
And how do you know that's how the guns are modeled? If that's all you're going on, you'd better study more pictures of WWII planes hit by MK108 shells.



http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/rudder100.jpg
MK108 hit

Seeing as this is what ONE HIT does to a HEAVY BOMBER, it's hard for me to imagine how a fighter in IL-2 can take up to six, sometimes even twice as many hits. But well, I guess you sure showed me with your table!

---<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now from the source you're linking on that picture there.

"Thru Hel'en Hi Water returned to base after a direct hit on the tail. The tail gunner was uninjured, fortunate that he was checking the tail wheel when the shell hit."

I don't see mention of it being a MK108 shell and most of the other pictures on the site do mention flak or hits from fighters causing the damage to the bombers.

So if you're going to make a case for something, keep in mind what your sources are saying about it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Peachy9
08-13-2004, 07:20 AM
Photographs dont really prove a lot - most heavy bombers carry oxygen bottles, ammunition and other exposive items - I know that a 30mm and even a 20mm cannon shell does a lot of damage in an enclosed space, but a photo cannot prove that seconary explosions, disrupted airflow etc were not aslo responsible for some of the damage. Also do these photos show the effects of one single round? How do you know these photos show the effect of the particular weapons you are talking about?

There are plenty of pctures of fighters with 20mm hits that are a series of small holes with some shrapnel splash damage - but I bet there are also plenty of fighters that never came back after one 20mm hit. I assume the same is the case for 30mm rounds although I guess less came back.

There are so many factors at play in ballistics that it would be impossible to model them all - One example - if a 30mm round expoldes at the point of impact on a wing or fueselage it will certainly do less damage than one that explodes after penetrating a wing or fueselage. In turn all of that depends on fuse type/sensitivity, deflection, the surface material of the wing etc etc etc

How can you model all of these complexities? If anyone can come up with a solution then go for it.

Abbuzze
08-13-2004, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peachy9:

How can you model all of these complexities? If anyone can come up with a solution then go for it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your post is 100% correct, thats why I simply ask for real life photos of a landed fighter with a 30mm hit... no need to modell it!
I simply never saw such a photo, so there are two logical solutions for this...
1st It simply wasn´t such interesting to survive such a hit.
2nd There weren´t many opportunities to take such a picture! (I´ve heard of a Spit, that survived a 30mm hit the complete tail were hanging at the last 2 undamadged struts... so http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam%20neu.gif

mortoma
08-13-2004, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Personally I dont doubt that u can survive a 30 mm hit in a fighter. What is more doubtable is to survive two hits.
One hit cripples u, and allied fighters that got hit most likely didnt make it back over the channel, or long distances.
A crippled bomber or fighter leaving a bloodtrail will soon be detected by sharks nearby. Yep... that did happen in RL too.

Not a full answer to your question, but a few more variables to contemplate on.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have seen pictures of fighters with no "fin", one remaining elevator, a third of a wing shot off or badly severed wings and fuselages and wheels gone.
Some of them may be 30mm hits.

I have seen them online, in books and I may even have a few in my archive...but that would probably take days to find for me...sry, cant help here.

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Thu August 12 2004 at 01:55 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The AI fighter planes survive Mk108 hits all the time. As a matter of fact, I usually let loose a burst of 3 or 4 shells, all or most of which hit their marks, and still planes survive. I've seen it time after time and again. And then some. In wings no, but fuselage hits many times do no visible damage at all.

Manos1
08-13-2004, 04:02 PM
This is some footing of a FW190 using its MK108

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/neilpage/pauke.html

http://www.hellenic-sqn.gr/Images/33.gif http://www.hellenic-sqn.gr/temp/4th_FG2_new1.gif
Hellenic-SQN (http://www.hellenic-sqn.gr)

Fennec_P
08-14-2004, 12:50 AM
On this page, I believe there is one video of a Bf-109 shooting MK108 at what appears to be a Spitfire. 6th video down on the right column.

http://guncam2002.tripod.com/

Given the lower ROF, bigger dispersion, and larger explosions, its almost definitely MK108.

The Spitfire is hit twice, once on each wing. Despite large explosions, and pieces of skin coming off, the aircraft remains largely intact. As the shells detonated on impact, they didn't get anywhere near the main spar.

This is a sharp contrast to a "test" in which a shell is detonated right in the center of the fuselage. Of course it would do more damage there. In reality, the shells would detonate on the periphery.

The irony is that, in FB, Spitfires almost always die from the very first hit. It is one of the weakest planes in the game.

If anything, the inordinate number of MK108 hits is due to wonky damage models. The biggest discrepancy being the surprising durability of the Bullet Proof Wood&#153 planes. Most others, except maybe the P-47, are destroyed or crippled in 1 or 2 hits.

The weapons kinetic and explosive values are directly from the real shell specs, so theres nothing to "tweak" there.

[This message was edited by Fennec_P on Sat August 14 2004 at 12:07 AM.]

Huckebein_UK
08-14-2004, 04:26 AM
The fourth one down you mean? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I dunno - that looks like an MG151 to me. I think the muzzle velocity is too high for an MK 108, and you can't tell the ROF from that - not all rounds were tracer... In fact neither of the rounds that hit are tracer rounds. I think for MK 108 damage here you have to go to the bottom one on the left. After about eight second the Sturmbocke '190 hits the Liberator with a burst of 20mm, then about three seconds later there's a big bang, lots of smoke and debris, and the tail disintegrates - I think that's the MK 108 hitting home.

For more 20mm hits, I think the second one down on the right is a P-40 getting hit...

--------------
Huckebein_UK

"I saw the men; I just couldn't do it!" -- Franz Stiegler after escorting Charles Brown's crippled B-17 across the North Sea.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/Huck/Sigs/13937.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=13937)
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