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XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:14 PM
That germans use to bomb fortress formations? That is something new, I`m reading a diaries of Heinz Knoke "I flew for Fuhrer". The would load up 250kg bombs with delayed fuse in thier 109`s and drop them in the middle of B-17Th formations. Dang... Looks like they were pretty successful in it too.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
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"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:14 PM
That germans use to bomb fortress formations? That is something new, I`m reading a diaries of Heinz Knoke "I flew for Fuhrer". The would load up 250kg bombs with delayed fuse in thier 109`s and drop them in the middle of B-17Th formations. Dang... Looks like they were pretty successful in it too.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:30 PM
The only problem would be the couple hundred 8th AF fighters coming at you when lining up your bomb drop. I think the Japanese might have tried the same thing against B-29s but, I'd have to look it up.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:37 PM
faustnik wrote:
- The only problem would be the couple hundred 8th AF
- fighters coming at you when lining up your bomb
- drop. I think the Japanese might have tried the
- same thing against B-29s but, I'd have to look it
- up.
-
-

err.. the japanese... I don't think a Zero could climb above a B-29...but who knows??

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:38 PM
I didn`t get to that part yet faustnik hehe... still in 1943.. no escorts.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

fluke39
07-15-2003, 10:41 PM
i'm sure the british experimented with similar thing - air mines

basically mines on long parachutes IIRC dropped in front of enemy bombers or maybe they were on balloons
either way the charge was near top and long wire hanging down - when a bombers hit the wire - it pulled the mine which slid down the wire until it hit the plane !! ingenious eh?


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XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 10:47 PM
fluke39 wrote:
- i'm sure the british experimented with similar thing
- - air mines
-
- basically mines on long parachutes IIRC dropped in
- front of enemy bombers or maybe they were on
- balloons
- either way the charge was near top and long wire
- hanging down - when a bombers hit the wire - it
- pulled the mine which slid down the wire until it
- hit the plane !! ingenious eh?

Pretty interesting, do you have any links or a way we could get more info?

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XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 11:00 PM
had read some war that British pilots had experimented with dragging long steel cables behind em! Would open up with guns, than as they pass would try to foal there props. "Insane"

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 11:14 PM
Yup, got to the T-Bolts, Mustang part of it. Time for severe casualties for LW. First "dance" with T-Bolts turned out as a disaster. His group lost 30% of planes and pilots, another group lost 100% planes and 70% pilots.
Interesting to see that only MG fire was enough to bring down tbolt, or even explode it. 1-2 30mm round would literally take it apart. Apparently it is not the case in FB , along with the fact that regardless of its size tbolt was very fast and manuverable...as Heinz describes. Gonna do more reading /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 11:18 PM
They also had an experimental bomb that was towed behind an Me 262.

Life is as light as a feather,but duty is as heavy as mountain....

(Japanese Proverb)

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 11:23 PM
BuzzardHead wrote:
- They also had an experimental bomb that was towed
- behind an Me 262.
Right, it was a 2000kg bomb with wings attached, this was tested on the V-10 prototype,IIRC.
Gotta look for some pics.

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 11:26 PM
Yes, this was heinz`s idea. I don`t remember the date but it was summer 1943. 1 staffell from JG11 used the tactics. One of the pilots(must check all the info) downed 3 of the bombers with his bomb. I will check it up and I will tell ya tomorrow.

By the way the prototype of the corsair was supposed to carry 40 anti-aircraft bombs. the pilot would fly over the enemy formation and release. there was a small window on the bottom of his cockpit

You have no right of 3+ monitors.
You have no right of Cray Supercomputers.
You have no right of B&Z.
You have no right of whining against Trim on a slider(TOS).
You have the right of Trim on a slider.
You have the right of bat turn.

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Ich bin ein Wurgerwhiner

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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:37 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
---
-
- err.. the japanese... I don't think a Zero could
- climb above a B-29...but who knows??
-
-
-

The Japanese had better planes than the Zero for attacking bombers.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:40 AM
Raiden J2M

You have no right of 3+ monitors.
You have no right of Cray Supercomputers.
You have no right of B&Z.
You have no right of whining against Trim on a slider(TOS).
You have the right of Trim on a slider.
You have the right of bat turn.

RBJ "Great Brow" FB Marshal


Ich bin ein Wurgerwhiner

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:46 AM
Yeah right, like the pilot's could just jupt into the cockpit and go shoot down every single B-29 they met..
Their radar sistems were highly unevolved, The pilots availeble were ( most of them) untrained enough, and IIRC, thei had numerous problem with the Raiden. On the last days of war, Tokyo defences consisted of 20-30 aircrafts(I may be wrong).

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 01:00 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
- Yeah right, like the pilot's could just jupt into
- the cockpit and go shoot down every single B-29 they
- met..
- Their radar sistems were highly unevolved, The
- pilots availeble were ( most of them) untrained
- enough, and IIRC, thei had numerous problem with the
- Raiden. On the last days of war, Tokyo defences
- consisted of 20-30 aircrafts(I may be wrong).
-

Well, not to be combative here, but you were the one who seemed to think the Japanese would use Zeros to deal with B-29s. All the other people mentioned was the Raiden, which was made as an interceptor. The Ki-61 and Ki-100 were also used, and for night fighting the Irving and the Judy, among others.

So the Japanese did have other planes. Some were quite good planes, too.



<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 01:12 AM
Icarus999 wrote:
but you were the one
- who seemed to think the Japanese would use Zeros to
- deal with B-29s. ..
I said that with no serious reason, I admitt I may have shown a little ignorance here, but... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"The show must go on..."
<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/iar81t.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:11 AM
The Ki 84 was quite advanced. It even had an early "fly by wire" device to control the combat flaps. It was a totally automatic system that, through mercury switches, sensed g loading and deployed the fowler type combat flaps without input from the pilot.

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:21 AM
some other operational as interceptors
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/mitsubishiki83.html
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/ki-46/

some prototypes
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/nakajimaki87.html
http://www.wwiitech.net/main/japan/aircraft/ki-100/

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 06:53 AM
So is this a towed bomb? Or a lifeboat type device? Or a towed fuel supply?

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/Me-262-60.jpg


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It's only funny til someone loses an eye....then it's hilarious

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/usp266.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:17 AM
That,s a towed bomb.Hasagawa has a model in 1/72 scale complete with bomb.

Thanks for the pic.

Life is as light as a feather,but duty is as heavy as mountain....

(Japanese Proverb)

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:21 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
-
- err.. the japanese... I don't think a Zero could
- climb above a B-29...but who knows??
-

Last kill of Saburo Sakai was a B29, and he was flying his trusthworty Zero. I've read the account of the kill in his book Samurai!, really astonishing.

Three of them went on when they knew of Japan surrender, they would like to be killed fighting for the Emperor. They went after a B29 formation knowing that so they will be killed... But they couldn't, and downed, after a long chase and a longer pounding of the plane, one of them. Astonishing, as I said... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 07:55 AM
Actually I didn't know about the 109 bomb thing, but it doesn't surprise me. This appears to be the natural evolution: http://www.luft46.com/misc/so344.html

----------------------------------------
Wow, I really look good on your six. Mind if I stay there?

Crabhart

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:21 AM
SuspectSquirrel wrote:
- Pretty interesting, do you have any links or a way
- we could get more info?

Churchill was keen on air mines, but they were seen
as a distraction. For one thing, it meant a lot
of high explosives ultimately landing on the Kent
countryside, which was what they were trying to
prevent! :-)

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:24 AM
Bear in mind that apart from the initial campaigns,
the B29s were not flying at high altitude, but
around 10,000 to 20,000.

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 10:36 AM
I also recall reading that the rear gunner in the IL-2 had grenades he would throw behind the plane and they would float on a parachute and explode something like 150m from the IL-2. Against fighters behind and below IIRC.

fluke39
07-16-2003, 11:34 AM
-
- SuspectSquirrel wrote:
- Pretty interesting, do you have any links or a way
- we could get more info?

i can't quite remember where i got that from maybe from one of my books - but i think i probably heard it on history channel or something like that if i find where i got it from or any other info i'll post it up /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 11:50 AM
In july 1943, Heinz knocke proposed that bomb carrying Me109G fly well above the Bomber formation and release their 250kg bomb. During the attack on the Fileser factories in Kassel, 5th staffel attacked successfully. Greatest results were obtained by Feldwebel Fest, whose bomb downed 3 of the Flying fortresses. in the raid were downed 22 of 77 bombers. The germans lost 7 fighters-4 FW190 and 3 Me109G. the boardgunners reported 48 German fighters shot down, which is a bit exaggerated

You have no right of 3+ monitors.
You have no right of Cray Supercomputers.
You have no right of B&Z.
You have no right of whining against Trim on a slider(TOS).
You have the right of Trim on a slider.
You have the right of bat turn.

RBJ "Great Brow" FB Marshal


Ich bin ein Wurgerwhiner

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 02:33 PM
Bender2k2 wrote:
-
- -
- Last kill of Saburo Sakai was a B29, and he was
- flying his trusthworty Zero. I've read the account
- of the kill in his book Samurai!, really
- astonishing.
-
-

Turns out it was apparently a B-32 not a B-29. See this link:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/stories/b32.html