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Flydutch
09-08-2005, 12:09 AM
This Sim will become much more interesting Both Historic in Campaigns; Where you can Encounter A Enemy Submarine and Hunt it, Is It A Enemy or Friendly Sub you have spotted? Or more exiting you have to be extra carefull to watch out for A Hidden Enemy Submarine Hunting you while your focused on Destroying A Convoy!
(It is the Enemy you don't see that Forms the greatest danger Above or under water Subs Are hard to spot let alone Identify!))
The Player can serve in Axis or Allied Submarines (Much more apeling to A larger Audience I would say) Imagine How online this Sim would Offer Human controlled Sub Versus Sub Duels!
Italian, IJN Submarines will be intersting for A change, But Give the player Also the opertunity Of Fighting them In A USS Gato Or Royal Navy T class! Several IJN Subs where Destroyed By US Navy Subs, And the US Pacific SS Fleet has A impresive record.

I would be most interested to see A Addon to serve In A Royal Navy or US Navy SS vs the Kriegamarine & Med Italian Navy in the existing Sim whe are playing these days!

The Book on All German U-Boot acomplishments Since 1906 till 1966 "Deutsche U-Boote 1906-1966" Bodo Herzog (Author)

Details 10x Allied Subs where sunk by German UBoote And 19x German UBoote Where sunk By Allied Submarines In WWI.

In World War II

The German UBoote Sunk;
3x British
2x French
4x Russian Submarines

9 Uboote suceeded to to sink Allied Submarines

The Kriegsmarine lost Uboote to the following Allied Subs;
17x to Brithish Subs
3x to USA
2x to Russian
2x to Dutch (!)
1x to A Norwegian Submarine

25 UBoote where sunk by Allied Submarines

The USN Pacific Silent surface Sunk 6x IJN Japanese Submarines as detailed in "The Last Patrol"By Harry Holmes Describing the 52x Silent Service Subs Lost in WWII (I Have not found How Many where lost to Axis Submarines in this Book)

If You take In Considerations How many Failed Attacks between Subs must have happend in order
to justify the above claims, The Encounter Between A Carrier & Submarine must have been much rarer!
But Ofcourse In War Propaganda much Atention went to Little David's slaiyng these Goliath's
Then there where other nations operating Subs in The Pacific ofcourse. Like Commonwealth and Dutch East Indies.
Then What Happend Against the many Italian Regia Marina Submarines?
The Med was A real Torpedo duel area between E-Boote, PT's, MTB, MAS, DD's Submarines of many nationality's.

joeap
09-08-2005, 03:09 AM
Sorry, it might be fun in a game but there were very few sub vs. sub actions in WWII. They had very little way to track each other...even the torpedos were suited for attacking surface vessels. Allied subs didn't sail with convoys, though they did try to stalk u-boats as they left or retunred to their bases.

Kaleun1961
09-08-2005, 11:09 AM
It would take a very brave Brit to sail a sub into Bay of Biscay in 43-44!

W.Irving
09-08-2005, 11:18 AM
German U-boat captains took great care to avoid operating near their colleagues' areas. The risk of colliding with another boat while submerged in the open sea is close to null, but it is still a danger. A few subs were indeed lost in collisions with friendly vessels.

vanjast
09-09-2005, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
It would take a very brave Brit to sail a sub into Bay of Biscay in 43-44!

Just imagine on board the Sunderland.
"Uboat ahead Skipper"
"Tally ho, diving to attack"... "Release charges there old boy!".
"I say! bombs gone" .... "Jolly good shot there chap, right on the button, he's sinking".
"Ok I'm going to land and pick up the survivors"

Sunderland lands and comes up to a group of survivors.
"They seem terribly upset there skipper! they're shouting obscenities that I cannot repeat to my mother"
"Bloody Jerries always working themselves up when losing"
"Err.., No skipper, they shouting in english accents, ..something about how Winston's going to bugger us"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Chrystine
09-09-2005, 07:44 AM
*

"Just imagine on board the Sunderland.

€˜Uboat ahead Skipper€
€˜Tally ho, diving to attack€... "Release charges there old boy!€.
€˜I say! bombs gone€ .... €˜Jolly good shot there chap, right on the button, he's sinking€.
€˜Ok I'm going to land and pick up the survivors€

Sunderland lands and comes up to a group of survivors.
€˜They seem terribly upset there skipper! they're shouting obscenities that I cannot repeat to my mother€
€˜Bloody Jerries always working themselves up when losing€
€˜Err.., No skipper, they shouting in english accents, ..something about how Winston's going to bugger us€€¦€


ROTFLOL! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*

The_Silent_O
09-09-2005, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by vanjast:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
It would take a very brave Brit to sail a sub into Bay of Biscay in 43-44!

Just imagine on board the Sunderland.
"Uboat ahead Skipper"
"Tally ho, diving to attack"... "Release charges there old boy!".
"I say! bombs gone" .... "Jolly good shot there chap, right on the button, he's sinking".
"Ok I'm going to land and pick up the survivors"

Sunderland lands and comes up to a group of survivors.
"They seem terribly upset there skipper! they're shouting obscenities that I cannot repeat to my mother"
"Bloody Jerries always working themselves up when losing"
"Err.., No skipper, they shouting in english accents, ..something about how Winston's going to bugger us"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny...but that brings up a question:

British and American Subs obviously operated in the same zones as U-Boats during the war...

There must have been some protocol or recognition system in place so that the above did not happen...anybody know?

aaronblood
09-09-2005, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
Sorry, it might be fun in a game but there were very few sub vs. sub actions in WWII. They had very little way to track each other...even the torpedos were suited for attacking surface vessels. Allied subs didn't sail with convoys, though they did try to stalk u-boats as they left or retunred to their bases.

Iron Coffins...

Werner notes in his memoirs that a boat he was serving on as (maybe the Exec?) was nearly obliterated on the surface when a brit sub fired a 3-fan shot at them. Luckily the torps were set to run too deep. Two of three swam right under them.

They gave chase on surface but broke it off after realizing their boat was outclassed and not gaining any distance.

aaronblood
09-09-2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vanjast:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
It would take a very brave Brit to sail a sub into Bay of Biscay in 43-44!

Just imagine on board the Sunderland.
"Uboat ahead Skipper"
"Tally ho, diving to attack"... "Release charges there old boy!".
"I say! bombs gone" .... "Jolly good shot there chap, right on the button, he's sinking".
"Ok I'm going to land and pick up the survivors"

Sunderland lands and comes up to a group of survivors.
"They seem terribly upset there skipper! they're shouting obscenities that I cannot repeat to my mother"
"Bloody Jerries always working themselves up when losing"
"Err.., No skipper, they shouting in english accents, ..something about how Winston's going to bugger us"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny...but that brings up a question:

British and American Subs obviously operated in the same zones as U-Boats during the war...

There must have been some protocol or recognition system in place so that the above did not happen...anybody know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Visual inspection... followed by signal lights.

The_Silent_O
09-09-2005, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by aaronblood:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vanjast:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
It would take a very brave Brit to sail a sub into Bay of Biscay in 43-44!

Just imagine on board the Sunderland.
"Uboat ahead Skipper"
"Tally ho, diving to attack"... "Release charges there old boy!".
"I say! bombs gone" .... "Jolly good shot there chap, right on the button, he's sinking".
"Ok I'm going to land and pick up the survivors"

Sunderland lands and comes up to a group of survivors.
"They seem terribly upset there skipper! they're shouting obscenities that I cannot repeat to my mother"
"Bloody Jerries always working themselves up when losing"
"Err.., No skipper, they shouting in english accents, ..something about how Winston's going to bugger us"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny...but that brings up a question:

British and American Subs obviously operated in the same zones as U-Boats during the war...

There must have been some protocol or recognition system in place so that the above did not happen...anybody know? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Visual inspection... followed by signal lights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about the quotus gratuitous...

So even at night when the only indication was a radar contact and the allied bomber was already on its attack run and only using its Leigh lights a pilot was suppose to be able to distinguish between a german and a british sub by the profile of the conning tower??? Sounds risky to me...I guess the signal lights might work but what if they didn't?

It's interesting to me...I'll have to do some research.

aaronblood
09-09-2005, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
So even at night when the only indication was a radar contact and the allied bomber was already on its attack run and only using its Leigh lights a pilot was suppose to be able to distinguish between a german and a british sub by the profile of the conning tower??? Sounds risky to me...I guess the signal lights might work but what if they didn't?

It's interesting to me...I'll have to do some research.

I strongly suspect that allied bombers knew before taking off whether friendly boats were operating in a given sector.

Cross-checking a radar blip against known friendly positions doesn't take long. They knew what they were doing.

Caseck73
09-09-2005, 03:30 PM
This probably would have been avoided by not assigning air patrols within sub-patrol areas.

Especially in the pacific, the subs were assigned geographical areas to patrol, so our planes would have had to confirm whether visually or some other means, whether it was a friendly or enemy sub... Wouldn't have been to hard, but I'm sure mistakes happened...

horribleron
09-09-2005, 05:32 PM
Actually, the Sunderlands almost never landed out on the open ocean and were forbidden to do so unless it was an emergency. The plane was too fragile and did not handle ocean swell to well. The PBY's though had much better luck in open ocean landings and sometimes did land out at sea (usually to rescue friendly downed air crews). The PBY had a wider hull and higher up engines and better wing pontoons that allowed them to do that providing the sea conditions were not too nasty. The Sunderlands pretty much stuck to landing and taking off in sheltered harbors and inlets.

Horribleron http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Flydutch
09-09-2005, 05:35 PM
I think that some of you seem to think that war is fought out as teached in the Millitary Academies!

When you read A lot of first hand Accounts, from Veterans, you will conclude this is far from the truth.
Any Small Vessel such as A Patrol Or Submarine traveling in friendly or Hostile waters was in Danger of beeing fired upon and sunk by any Other vessel, Fleet or Aircraft It would encounter!
A lot Of Sailors seem to think better safe then sorry If I encounter A possible Treath Better sink it before It Does sink my ship.
Examples Of these can be read In many books I read A interesting Book By A Dutch Vet Sailing on A Dutch Sub in Royal Navy commision They where Fired Upun By "friendlys" 3 seprate occasions Before reaching their Med Base Gibraltar In they End They where not Fired Upon by A German Sub Who was following them And mistook them for A German Sub The DutchSub Fired their very last stern torpedo And Sunk the German Sub But Rescued the Crew & Captain Who Was very Angry (He Would shoot before beeing shot at If he could have come in A Simiular situation)
Shot At by Friendlys Also Happend to A Squadron Of Dog boats triyng to reach the Med They Always could be mistaken for the Feared MAS Or E-Boote.

Anyways Encounter between Enemy Subs Did Happen!
There Is Even Photographs Of Subs Beeing targeted by their Counterparts.

Don't forget that A lot Of valueble Targets like A Naval Harbour would be protected by Subs midget or Coastal Subs most of the time.
(Didn't you like the Suspense the Suprise Sub In "Run Silent Run Deep" did for that movie!?)

This Is after All A Sim for Submarine Fanatics Isn't It?

KZS_Tartarus
09-10-2005, 01:55 AM
Not sure sub-vs-sub was even that rare... Particularly late in the war, when allied subs would lie in wait off the German sub bases in Norway and the Far East, get vectored to rendez-vous points from Ultra intelligence, or patrol likely transit areas.

Some info on this at
uboat.net (http://www.uboat.net/fates/sub-sunk.htm).

Best,
- B

Flydutch
09-10-2005, 11:37 AM
The Book on All German U-Boot acomplishments Since 1906 till 1966 "Deutsche U-Boote 1906-1966" Bodo Herzog (Author)

Details 10x Allied Subs where sunk by German UBoote And 19x German UBoote Where sunk By Allied Submarines In WWI.

In World War II

The German UBoote Sunk;
3x British
2x French
4x Russian Submarines

9 Uboote suceeded to to sink Allied Submarines

The Kriegsmarine lost Uboote to the following Allied Subs;
17x to Brithish Subs
3x to USA
2x to Russian
2x to Dutch (!)
1x to A Norwegian Submarine

25 UBoote where sunk by Allied Submarines

The USN Pacific Silent surface Sunk 6x IJN Japanese Submarines as detailed in "The Last Patrol"By Harry Holmes Describing the 52x Silent Service Subs Lost in WWII (I Have not found How Many where lost to Axis Submarines in this Book)

If You take In Considerations How many Failed Attacks between Subs must have happend in order
to justify the above claims, The Encounter Between A Carrier & Submarine must have been much rarer!
But Ofcourse In War Propaganda much Atention went to Little David's slaiyng these Goliath's
Then there where other nations operating Subs in The Pacific ofcourse. Like Commonwealth and Dutch East Indies.
Then What Happend Against the many Italian Regia Marina Submarines?
The Med was A real Torpedo duel area between E-Boote, PT's, MTB, MAS, DD's Submarines of many nationality's.

KZS_Tartarus
09-10-2005, 01:07 PM
Interesting info Flydutch! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But the thread looks a little funny now that you edited your original post... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Best,
- B

Flydutch
09-12-2005, 12:46 AM
In war Evrything is allowed! (LoL)

Flydutch
09-12-2005, 04:39 AM
Found Some Info On Regia Marina Sub Vs Sub! :
Historical records show that during the Second World War, a total of eighteen Italian submarines were sunk by other submarines. Sixteen of these were sunk by British submarines, one by a Dutch submarine and in the case of the Gemma, the aggressor was the Italian submarine Tricheco which inadvertently sank her on the 8th of October 1940 in the Aegean Sea.

Suggestion that the submarine Marconi was sunk by the German U-boat U67 in 1941 has proved incorrect as the German boat was not at sea at the time of the Marconi€s disappearance. It may be surprising to learn that only one Allied submarine was sunk by an Italian submarine. This incident, however, gives a story reminding one of medieval jousting and until recently shrouded in doubt.

Read more on: http://www.regiamarina.net/subs/submarines/toti/toti_us.htm

JU88
09-12-2005, 07:14 AM
Yep subs DID engage eachother in WW2, a rare occourence but it still happened on several occasions. Its a shame this isnt modled in to SH3.
Obviously a sub could only attack another sub that was surfaced, it would work exactly the same as if the sub engaged a ship, and would rely on the element of surprise.
Its only submerged battles that would have been impossible, what with both vessels being completly blind, suppose you could get a bearing with the hydrophones but you would have no way to determine its depth unless you had sonar and obviously if youre too deep, you cant launch any fish at all.

The idea of encountering another submerged vessel in sh3 could be quite terrifying what with risk of collision underwater aswell as an attack on the surface.

Baldricks_Mate
09-12-2005, 08:37 AM
A liitle bit of useless info?

The Japs painted two white rings around the conning tower to aid recognition by their own guys. That Jap sub that made it all the way to France was supposed to have had them.

WilhelmSchulz.-
09-12-2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
Funny...but that brings up a question:

British and American Subs obviously operated in the same zones as U-Boats during the war...

There must have been some protocol or recognition system in place so that the above did not happen...anybody know? No Roosavelt enaticed the shoot on sight rule to and sub of us coast(milatary or otherwise)so subs had a surface escort to prevent this. In october 43 the USS Dorado a brand new boat coming down from New London to Pearl was sunk by a American bomber witch mastacinley I.D'd it as a U-Boat. Yet another danger to U.S subs arount the U.S coast. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

JU88
09-13-2005, 02:43 AM
At the time pearl harbor was attacked, the US had more subs operational on the east coast in the atlantic than they did on the west coast (pacific)