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View Full Version : A challange to the FW-190a & P-47 drivers. An experiment.



Copperhead311th
02-06-2008, 10:04 PM
just to prove a point. i have an open challenge.

give me 5 volenteers. just five. who fly online regularly, and fly the Fw-190 almost exclusivly.
And give me 5 volenteers p-47 almost exclusivly.

here's the challange. Abadon your fw's for 1 week. and instead fly the p-47. change nothing else from your normal routine. fly the same server, same settings everything the way you normally would. Each day come back here and post your server stats. for the night. Same thing for the p-47 pilots.

At the end of that week we'll evaluate the results. i haver a point i'd like to make...however i need these results to determin if my asumptions are correct.

DrHerb
02-06-2008, 10:07 PM
What if you fly both?

Copperhead311th
02-06-2008, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by DrHerb:
What if you fly both?
if you fly both on a regular basis you'll have to be excluded. sorry. but that would foul up the results.
need fw-190 pilots who are short timers inthe p-47, and p-47 drivers who have little time in 19o's

X32Wright
02-06-2008, 10:52 PM
What would this accomplish? I personally fly the Antons and Dora a lot and I have little time on the P-47 but they seem to handle the same way IF you know E-management and E-fighting.

My problem with the P-47 is that I am not used to the guns on that eventhough I do fly the Mustang. Yeah I know it is ironic but I guess I am just used to the German planes.

Cajun76
02-06-2008, 11:56 PM
Wright, you might try to set the guns on the P-47 this way. 300 for MG and 250 for cannon. Inner and outer guns on different triggers, Weapon 1 and 2. IIRC, this is statistically the best spread vs punch and range vs concentration.

K_Freddie
02-07-2008, 12:59 AM
My time is 99% FW and possibly 1% P47 (co-ops), I still treat the P47 the same as a FW as it flies very much the same, except for roll rate.
I yank both of them around like crazy, but then I'm just a 'Yanker' with my stick - it works though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Copperhead311th
02-07-2008, 01:13 AM
Ok so we'll begin the test starting on monday.
local time for each participant.


FW pilots in P-47's:


P-47 Pilots in FW's:

Wright & Freddie & Cajun are you guys volenteeing?

Copperhead311th
02-07-2008, 01:15 AM
i've come to the conclution the we need to do this with 3 sorties per night per pilot.

and i'll need ntrks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Bewolf
02-07-2008, 03:21 AM
I wonder what you are going at, Copperhead. A testing like this does not make any sense.

P-47s hardly ever fly in their historic environment on such servers, where everything is low or mid alt. Nor do german planes go after bombers and as such are easy pickings for american fighters. Neither are the LW pilots noobs fresh from flightschool. And the 47s do not possess an inherit alt advantage on servers the way they had in real life when germans had to climb up to meet them. So I expect a complete and logical butchering of the P47s in such a test run.

Which basicly just proves the P47 was not a good fighter down low with with quality machine and men opposition and equal numbers.

Which also never ever anybody claimed, as its strenghs are elsewhere.

Von_Rat
02-07-2008, 04:00 AM
its pretty obviuos were he's going.

while i think american planes do suffer from a little to much realism, compared to certain other planes questionable realism, its not as bad as copper makes it out to be.

i usually fly the fw, but i have flown a p47 for extended periods. my stats went up when i did. mainly because i tried to fly it like it was in real life.

JtD
02-07-2008, 04:20 AM
I think it all depends on which Fw against which P-47. I prefer the A-4/A-5/A-6 over the D-10 and D-22, but the D-27 over A-6/A-8/A-9.

I figure the guys going from P-47 to Fw 190 will die a bit more often than the other ones.

Bewolf
02-07-2008, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
I think it all depends on which Fw against which P-47. I prefer the A-4/A-5/A-6 over the D-10 and D-22, but the D-27 over A-6/A-8/A-9.

I figure the guys going from P-47 to Fw 190 will die a bit more often than the other ones.

Very possible, yeah. I totally see them getting all exited over the added firepower and become a bit too hot headed.

But about modelling, don't get me even started about the infamous FW cockpit bar, its <350mph accelaration handling or that awful "one shot in the wing better fly home" phenomenom. Anybody stating the 190 to be overmodelled must be either nuts, completly uninformmed or has to throw a personal tantrum.

Whirlin_merlin
02-07-2008, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
P-47s hardly ever fly in their historic environment on such servers,.

Bingo.

I really am not expert, I've never flown a real warbird afterall. However I've read a lot of books etc.
Overall the game 'experience' matches what one would expect.
Is it perfect, of course not. Yes there are issues e.g 190 cockpit bar, lack of .50 api etc.

However I really believe that alot of the unhappiness stems from the 'unnatural' nature of how the sim (thinking online here) plays.

The altitudes, ranges etc favour LW planes over US. Infact the (western front) most heavily favoured (by the conditions) aircraft are the late spits, which I suspect contributes a fair ammount to the 'overmoddled' cries.

All aircraft have compromises in the case of the P47 and P51 especially, sacrifices had to be made in order to increase range, they are bigger and heavier. During online play these sacrifices become apparent whilst the big strength of range is pretty much irrelevent.

In a fair equal fight I would expect a contempory 190 to beat a p47. However if I needed a plane to escort my bombers it would be p47 everytime. Horses for courses.

SeaFireLIV
02-07-2008, 05:11 AM
This whole thing is pointless and I`m dissappointed at this continuing personal obsessiveness.

I`m not a Blue flyers hate flying almost any jerry plane except maybe the B239, but this whole thing is like holding Court proceedings when the final judgement has already been met.

Let`s be honest, the outcome will be the same, no matter what the result. Copperhead will complain that FWs, etc are stupidly uber against US aircraft.

And do not post and drink alcohol at the same time.

Solution: Learn to fly your aircraft like the real pilots; ie, in a team or from a position of advantage. Don`t go taking them on John Wayne\Rambo style (or while drinking) or you will always get `pwned`.

Once you have learnt it right you`ll see that every Jerry pilot will run away from you.

Brain32
02-07-2008, 05:47 AM
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEBillfish
02-07-2008, 05:55 AM
Flown both (though just 190A's) often.....Really have no issues with either both are awesome planes in all ways if you realize their limitations and plusses. The BIGGEST problem most have with both is, trying to turn fight them like they're Spits, and most often setting their convergence Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far out. 130-180 most I'll ever do and that IS true to r/l.

If someone wants something to have issue with, fly the Ki-43 with the way it stalls now...Rediculous.

Aaron_GT
02-07-2008, 06:11 AM
At mid altitude spam fests in DF servers I'd expect Fw190s to do better as they have heavier armament.

If the 3 .50 guns = 1 20mm cal (USN factor) is right, and 1 MG131 is worth 75% of an M2 then the 190 has effectively 70% greater firepower, or 1.7x times the firepower. This is assuming you're using 190A8s but not using the additional Fw 190 gun pods - using the dual 20mm cannon pods and it is 140% greater on the P-47, i.e. 2.4 times the armament.

With 4 cannon and 2 MGs versus 8 MGs the difference in the chances of hitting are tiny (diminishing returns as the number of guns increases).

The shorter firing time of the 190 might even things out a little so it will be interesting to see how the known fact (190 has heavier armamemnt) will be reflected in the stats.

Maybe it's worth comparing with the Tempest V too - it's similar in general behaviour, and its armament is just a little less than the 190s.

mbfRoy
02-07-2008, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
hit rate on its own doesn't mean anything, specially in planes with lots of ammo since there's plenty of that to waste. One could have 0.5% accuracy on a P-47 and still get 5 kills per sortie easily

Bewolf
02-07-2008, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by mbfRoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
hit rate on its own doesn't mean anything, specially in planes with lots of ammo since there's plenty of that to waste. One could have 0.5% accuracy on a P-47 and still get 5 kills per sortie easily </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

0.5 percent hit accuracy and still 5 kills?


That I want to see.

JG53Frankyboy
02-07-2008, 07:17 AM
as im am ok with the firepower of the 8x.50cal (i just would like to have the extra ammo amount as the standart - to have also 425rpg when having bombs/droptank.......) - and sure the 4xMG151/20 and even more the 2xMG151/20&2xMG-FF (even with a lower firerate and less ammo, if they hit, the MG-FF has a better hitting power in game) are superiour !
espacially in the mostly very short time of actually hitting an human oponent in the game online.
i rememeber to have read that fighterpilots of that time are claiming 2sec bursts as short !
count 2 seconds in the game and hit all this 2 sec the foe...............
in the more typical even shorter ingame snapshots for sure canons are better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

having the flightperformance in mind, the two Razorbacks are both , even more in the game typical heights, more ore less flying targets............. against a Fw190, versus the A-4 , than they are a little bit even !

one of my longtimewishes for the P-47s in game was, that the D-22 should get the FM of the D-27 , but.............

the D-27 has a chance against the A-5/-6/-8.
and the D_late against the A-9.

against non alcoholic Bf109s or japanese Fighters - thats something different in most cases.
but as i remember thats a Fw190/P-47D topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


camparing the speeds of the il2compare D-10/-22 with real live charts , espacially at middle alts, the ingame one is too slow
http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/P-47D10%20Leistung.jpg
if the il2compare datas are comparable to the realy ingame speeds, i dont know , sorry http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
but very often thy fit very good.

mbfRoy
02-07-2008, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mbfRoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
hit rate on its own doesn't mean anything, specially in planes with lots of ammo since there's plenty of that to waste. One could have 0.5% accuracy on a P-47 and still get 5 kills per sortie easily </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

0.5 percent hit accuracy and still 5 kills?


That I want to see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok maybe it's a bit exagerated. At roughly 30 fifty cal rounds per plane with 3400 rounds you'd get 1 kill per sortie with 1% accuracy, or 1/2 a kill with 0.5% http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Still it's not that bad!

HuninMunin
02-07-2008, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
If someone wants something to have issue with, fly the Ki-43 with the way it stalls now...Rediculous.

+1

Bewolf
02-07-2008, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by mbfRoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mbfRoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
hit rate on its own doesn't mean anything, specially in planes with lots of ammo since there's plenty of that to waste. One could have 0.5% accuracy on a P-47 and still get 5 kills per sortie easily </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

0.5 percent hit accuracy and still 5 kills?


That I want to see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok maybe it's a bit exagerated. At roughly 30 fifty cal rounds per plane with 3400 rounds you'd get 1 kill per sortie with 1% accuracy, or 1/2 a kill with 0.5% http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Still it's not that bad! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ha! now that sounds more reasonable http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
02-07-2008, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
If someone wants something to have issue with, fly the Ki-43 with the way it stalls now...Rediculous.

+1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i guess the list of ingmae planes that have "issues" would be a long one !

i dont think collecting datas/sources to modell FMs that everyone is satisfied, is the easiest job to do while making a flight combat sim ............

HuninMunin
02-07-2008, 08:21 AM
Let's hope the smaller amount of planes in BoB will put the manhour/plane ratio back into a healthy balance.

Jaws2002
02-07-2008, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

At i haver a point i'd like to make...however i need these results to determin if my asumptions are correct.

For six years you are trying to make a pointless point. Grow up man. Go play the game.

I fly FW and Jug a lot and i can tell you now how it would come out. The guy s will get more kills in the FW-190 simply because of the much better firepower, but die more. And survive more sorties in the jug simply because of the much better performance up high.


This is exactly my experience in the two planes and i flew both of them a lot.

Jaws2002
02-07-2008, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


LMFAO
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Now this explain everything. Thx Brain32. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

AFJ_rsm
02-07-2008, 09:02 AM
as some of you might know, we regularly set up a coop on HL that we like very much, which is P47's vs FW190a's

The scenario is simple, yet effective. One flight of 4 planes on each side pitted against each other head to head with a few km's separation, both starting at about 3km of altitude.


In our experience flying that coop, if the P47 fliers aren't dumb then the FW's stand no chance. The P47 can outclimb the FW's from the get go and dominate the game from there on relying solely on E tactics. The P47 dives harder, zooms back up better and is more stable on sustained turns.

On the other hand, it takes a bit more practice to start getting hits with the 50cals but the ONLY reason for this is the fact that the bullets fired are harder to SEE. If you can focus on the flow of bullets and visually separate them from the background, and aim using that flow of bullets, you'll start getting more successful. You won't rip wings as easily as with LW cannons and mg fire, granted, but you'll get lots of control surfaces, smoking engines, and generally putting the other guy out of commission without blowing him out of the sky, which is more than enough.


I'm not saying the P47 is overmodelled or the FW is undermodelled. I believe I have no bias in this aspect (seeing as I'm also from Costa Rica which didn't take part in the war so I have no sentimental attachment to any air force or planes). I enjoy flying them both, and I believe the FW is more of a challenge against an experienced allied pilot. (Unless you're flying a dora but that ain't the focus of your post is it?)

JG53Frankyboy
02-07-2008, 09:18 AM
im curious , which versions you use in these coops ?

AFJ_rsm
02-07-2008, 09:21 AM
D22's, D27's, D's against the FW190a9

The P47's dominance is of course more palatable in the P47D

JG53Frankyboy
02-07-2008, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_rsm:
D22's, D27's, D's against the FW190a9

The P47's dominance is of course more palatable in the P47D

wow, a 190A-9 outflown below 7000m by a D-22 ..............actually hard to belive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AFJ_rsm
02-07-2008, 09:35 AM
you're welcome to join in anytime sir

JtD
02-07-2008, 09:43 AM
It's the superior climb, mostly. This is also why I think folks going from P-47 to Fw-190A will die more often than the other ones. They will find themselves lower than usual, with lesser chances of escape.

JG53Frankyboy
02-07-2008, 10:01 AM
indeed ,the Fw190 have their "proplems" around 3000m (more or less, depends on version) because of their supercharger shifting altitude.
but the D-22 vs the A-9.........

@ rsm , i will have a look.

Xiolablu3
02-07-2008, 10:24 AM
WHat would this acheieve except to prove what most of us know already - that generally the FW190 was a better fighter than the P47?

Korolov1986
02-07-2008, 10:24 AM
Damn. I've got about equal flight time in the P-47 and the Fw-190. Guess I can't join.

SeaFireLIV
02-07-2008, 10:30 AM
All that`s going on here, is the OP is hoping to do what many tried to do in the past.

Create a loyal band of followers who`ll jump on the `P47\allied planes is porked` bandwagon. Whine and whine until Oleg uberizes it to his personal view. Something like giving the 50 cals the power of MK108s...

Do any of you really believe that if this `test` proved that P47s were better than Fw190s that this would end the issue? That he would be convinced? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This lad`s on a thinly veiled agenda.

Jaws2002
02-07-2008, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_rsm:
as some of you might know, we regularly set up a coop on HL that we like very much, which is P47's vs FW190a's

The scenario is simple, yet effective. One flight of 4 planes on each side pitted against each other head to head with a few km's separation, both starting at about 3km of altitude.


In our experience flying that coop, if the P47 fliers aren't dumb then the FW's stand no chance. The P47 can outclimb the FW's from the get go and dominate the game from there on relying solely on E tactics. The P47 dives harder, zooms back up better and is more stable on sustained turns.

On the other hand, it takes a bit more practice to start getting hits with the 50cals but the ONLY reason for this is the fact that the bullets fired are harder to SEE. If you can focus on the flow of bullets and visually separate them from the background, and aim using that flow of bullets, you'll start getting more successful. You won't rip wings as easily as with LW cannons and mg fire, granted, but you'll get lots of control surfaces, smoking engines, and generally putting the other guy out of commission without blowing him out of the sky, which is more than enough.


I'm not saying the P47 is overmodelled or the FW is undermodelled. I believe I have no bias in this aspect (seeing as I'm also from Costa Rica which didn't take part in the war so I have no sentimental attachment to any air force or planes). I enjoy flying them both, and I believe the FW is more of a challenge against an experienced allied pilot. (Unless you're flying a dora but that ain't the focus of your post is it?)



I flew quite a few of this coops. Loads of fun. I never flew the D22 tho.
In most engagements if the 47's got away from the first head on and climbed it was all clear.
The jugs put a roof on the fignt and bounced the 190's to death.

DKoor
02-07-2008, 10:40 AM
I'd say that they are both good fighters of their era. In dogfight within the game (47 vs 190) I'd probably select 47 tho.

Korolov1986
02-07-2008, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
All that`s going on here....

Is trolling. Make no mistake, Copper is just looking to get a rise out of us. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AFJ_rsm
02-07-2008, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:

I flew quite a few of this coops. Loads of fun. I never flew the D22 tho.




Hmm your and Frankyboys comments are making me doubt now.... I might have jumped the gun when I said the D22... lol but it'll still be interesting to see. We have to try it out next time

JZG_Thiem
02-07-2008, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
... Abadon your fw's for 1 week. and instead fly the p-47. change nothing else from your normal routine. fly the same server, same settings everything the way you normally would. ...

Fw190 is best below 6000m, P47 is best above 7000m.

So you mean i should fly my P47 at the best altitudes for 190s?

Or are you suggesting that i should fly my 190 at P47s optimum altitude range?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jaws2002
02-07-2008, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by AFJ_rsm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:

I flew quite a few of this coops. Loads of fun. I never flew the D22 tho.




Hmm your and Frankyboys comments are making me doubt now.... I might have jumped the gun when I said the D22... lol but it'll still be interesting to see. We have to try it out next time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Of course, it can end different if Viper kicks you out of the server after you shreds his 190 engine. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Tons of fun gents. tons of fun. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JtD
02-07-2008, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
indeed ,the Fw190 have their "proplems" around 3000m (more or less, depends on version) because of their supercharger shifting altitude.
but the D-22 vs the A-9.........

Don't forget the D-22 can run 110% forever, while the A-9 can't.

DmdSeeker
02-07-2008, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Bewolf:

P-47s hardly ever fly in their historic environment on such servers, where everything is low or mid alt. Nor do german planes go after bombers and as such are easy pickings for american fighters. .

Sunday nights on Warclouds we're doing out best to relive the "mighty eighth" (albeit with A20's and B25's) ( http://www.war-clouds.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3290) Why not see how a 190 or P47 does in a more historic setting?

crucislancer
02-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
All that`s going on here, is the OP is hoping to do what many tried to do in the past.

Create a loyal band of followers who`ll jump on the `P47\allied planes is porked` bandwagon. Whine and whine until Oleg uberizes it to his personal view. Something like giving the 50 cals the power of MK108s...

Do any of you really believe that if this `test` proved that P47s were better than Fw190s that this would end the issue? That he would be convinced? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

This lad`s on a thinly veiled agenda.

That about sums it up.

It seems to me if the OP is having issues with the P-47, he should fly it more often, using correct tactics and perhaps a more accommodating convergence setting. It's not a Spit, fly it like one and a Buffalo will shoot you down.

Know your plane, know the enemies plane.

BirdieNum-nums
02-07-2008, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Wright, you might try to set the guns on the P-47 this way. 300 for MG and 250 for cannon. Inner and outer guns on different triggers, Weapon 1 and 2. IIRC, this is statistically the best spread vs punch and range vs concentration.

Um... I don't know what you're smoking Cajun, but the P-47 has 8x50mm mgs, and not a single cannon.

crucislancer
02-07-2008, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by BirdieNum-nums:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
Wright, you might try to set the guns on the P-47 this way. 300 for MG and 250 for cannon. Inner and outer guns on different triggers, Weapon 1 and 2. IIRC, this is statistically the best spread vs punch and range vs concentration.

Um... I don't know what you're smoking Cajun, but the P-47 has 8x50mm mgs, and not a single cannon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In game the MGs are set up so one bank of four (inboard?) fire on the MG trigger, the other bank on the cannon trigger.

MB_Avro_UK
02-07-2008, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
I wonder what you are going at, Copperhead. A testing like this does not make any sense.

P-47s hardly ever fly in their historic environment on such servers, where everything is low or mid alt. Nor do german planes go after bombers and as such are easy pickings for american fighters. Neither are the LW pilots noobs fresh from flightschool. And the 47s do not possess an inherit alt advantage on servers the way they had in real life when germans had to climb up to meet them. So I expect a complete and logical butchering of the P47s in such a test run.

Which basicly just proves the P47 was not a good fighter down low with with quality machine and men opposition and equal numbers.

Which also never ever anybody claimed, as its strenghs are elsewhere.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Good post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

I_KG100_Prien
02-07-2008, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by BirdieNum-nums:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
Wright, you might try to set the guns on the P-47 this way. 300 for MG and 250 for cannon. Inner and outer guns on different triggers, Weapon 1 and 2. IIRC, this is statistically the best spread vs punch and range vs concentration.

Um... I don't know what you're smoking Cajun, but the P-47 has 8x50mm mgs, and not a single cannon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since we are splitting hairs here, it's 8x.50 caliber (12.7mm) machine guns.. 8 50mm guns would be quite impressive indeed.

Cajun76
02-07-2008, 04:04 PM
Sorry Copper, I haven't flown online in months, not since the home built version got popular.

It would take at least several weeks of hard flying to get back in the groove.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was participating, just trying to share a bit of gunnery settings with folks who may not be that familiar with the Thunderbolt and it's armament setup.

The conditions prevalent online have been stated, I don't know where your going with this. Both have altitude and speed ranges where they excel. The key for both is speed speed speed. Oh, and speed.


@ BirdieNum-nums:

Unless you have Weapon 1 and 2 grouped, you must fire both triggers for all 8 HMG. IRL, pilots would set up the guns to all hit in one spot. The lead from each gun would combine into a fused mass roughly 100mm diameter, obliterating the target. Hopefully we'll see this feature in future expansions of SOW:BOB. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Good luck and

Copperhead311th
02-07-2008, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Nope not so much the problem as climbing up to where i belong. 90% of the time i'm trying to climb up to alt in the same grid as home base and 90% of the time am shot down over said base whilte trying to get to my proper operating alt in the p-47.

about 75% of my time on the server is attacking ground targets with the a p-38 or a loaded p-47. Both of wich, givien the very nature ofthe server it's self have to be done at nap of the earth level bacause anything above the horzion and your dead meat for FW's. and even with a p-47 there's no diving away from them. which is a joke IMO.

So if your going to post my server stats from WC then post THE ENTIRE RECORD.

Copperheads WC 44 Stats. (http://www.war-clouds.com/modules.php?name=TARGET&theatre=WF&op=playerstats&pilotid=6639)

josephs1959
02-07-2008, 06:56 PM
Am very interested in the conclusion that you arrive at even though you didn't state it. keep me posted at least.

Lubcke
02-07-2008, 09:21 PM
copperhead311 = nooberhead311

VW-IceFire
02-07-2008, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by BirdieNum-nums:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
Wright, you might try to set the guns on the P-47 this way. 300 for MG and 250 for cannon. Inner and outer guns on different triggers, Weapon 1 and 2. IIRC, this is statistically the best spread vs punch and range vs concentration.

Um... I don't know what you're smoking Cajun, but the P-47 has 8x50mm mgs, and not a single cannon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mmm nope he's right and I don't think you understand just yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The P-47 in game has two triggers with both having 4x .50cal each. So to get full firepower the P-47 needs for you to depress both primary and secondary triggers. In terms of the gun convergence screen this is in reference to "cannon" and "machine gun" convergence. So with the P-47 uniquely...you can set up a kill box between the two convergence settings so that with all guns being fired at the same time in his configuration there will be two distinct streams of fire...one hitting at 250m and one at 300m. Anything in between is going to be showered with a very dense concentration of .50cal bullets.

This is where the .50cal excels at crippling an enemy preventing him from continuing the fight. All it takes is a second burst on target inside the zone. The trick is being that good...I'm not but I try. Some days I'm on the ball and I'll shred the target with a good burst.

JtD
02-07-2008, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

... and even with a p-47 there's no diving away from them. which is a joke IMO.

Funny, just the other day I killed two A-6 making use of the higher dive limit of the D-22. Which felt good because both of them started at my high six after I bombed some targets. One dived too shallow and ended up in front of me when I zoomed back up, the other damaged his plane in the dive and was a hopeless case in the final dogfight.

M_Gunz
02-07-2008, 11:29 PM
I would expect to find that one or the other plane plays at DF better when flown by the habits
of a practiced pilot in the other, maybe. The speeds and alts best for doing things in the
two planes vary, if you don't fly to the best for your plane (like while you're trying to
learn) then you have that plane not exactly shining it's brightest as a test subject. Poor
comparison, this plane flown like one not so different but with some gotchas. Who changes
habits fastest will count more than the difference in planes.

Jumping from plane to plane just leaves a player not really good in any of them, IMO. Stay
with one and occasionally check fly the other to see where he has better and worse acceleration
than the ride you know so well. You can quickly measure the new against what you know well
while if your 'feel' is ever-changing then you compare to what you don't know so well to be
able to get the most to even compare the new to.

By history the planes flew in groups that trained together, the quality of the pilots as a
group and the leaders especially is a higher factor than the performance of the plane.
Will you be testing online pilots that maybe just met and expect them to be how coordinated
as units?

Copperhead311th
02-08-2008, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Lubcke:
copperhead311 = nooberhead311

is that the best you got for a personal attack ja@ckass? and your calling me a noob? come back when you have more than 50 posts here.
better yet drag your noob @ss back under what ever other UBI forum rock you crawled out of and leave this to the adults.

Copperhead311th
02-08-2008, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I would expect to find that one or the other plane plays at DF better when flown by the habits
of a practiced pilot in the other, maybe. The speeds and alts best for doing things in the
two planes vary, if you don't fly to the best for your plane (like while you're trying to
learn) then you have that plane not exactly shining it's brightest as a test subject. Poor
comparison, this plane flown like one not so different but with some gotchas. Who changes
habits fastest will count more than the difference in planes.

Jumping from plane to plane just leaves a player not really good in any of them, IMO. Stay
with one and occasionally check fly the other to see where he has better and worse acceleration
than the ride you know so well. You can quickly measure the new against what you know well
while if your 'feel' is ever-changing then you compare to what you don't know so well to be
able to get the most to even compare the new to.

By history the planes flew in groups that trained together, the quality of the pilots as a
group and the leaders especially is a higher factor than the performance of the plane.
Will you be testing online pilots that maybe just met and expect them to be how coordinated
as units?

The entire point of the experiment is this.

Allied pilots who are used to the p-47, (any USAAF late war plane infact) who switch to the FW-190 will see thier kills go up, deaths go down, and over all hit rate go up. How much will depend on the pilot.... but it's my ASUMPTION that regardles of pilot skill level the above will be true.

I belive that, given the setting of WC and the more dificult settings servers, and the dificulty of effectively flying the p-47 in that inviroment...that some one switching from late war USAAF planes to FW's will see thier stats go through the roof. While the FW 190 pilots will see thier's go down. The only thing that the FW guys have to base their argemnts on regarding the difficulty of flying the FW is a more complex CEM. I & others have always been of the opinion that the p-47 is more difficult to fly in combat (as it is in the sim) than the FW's / 109's are. Therfore i belive the FW's are easier fo fly in combat and easier to ill with in combat.

and by getting the FW guys in p-47's for a bit i'm hoping to learn weather or not my asupmtions on the matter are correct or are compleatly baseless. that's all i'm trying to determine.
Which is easier to fly in combat, wich is has the high succes rate. and as much as it's been argured here...that it's not the plane but the pilot....that it is infact the plane that makes the differance in this sim. While in real life i would tend to agre with the whole plane/pilot statmentent...i don't think it holds water here.

for several reasons. 1 of which is technological advantige. I'd guess that 65% to 70% of online pilots here have track ir. Not everyone does. moast have a faily good computer/graphics set up. others do not.
some have rudder peddles. some don't.

this ACTUALLY MATTERS PPL. this things make or brak you in this sim. But in the same waythis things may give one person a slight advantige over another...so can the FM's/DM's and weapons modleing of the sim it's self. again there are controls for that such as server admins attempting to balance the plane set for a fiar game taking into account the know isues with certain flight models. and by limiting things to a piticular year.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif never d@mn mind i might as well be p*ssing in the wind.

na85
02-08-2008, 12:48 AM
"It's the pilot not the plane" only applies if the pilot flies properly in each plane.

If the pilot sticks to the same set of tactics in every bird he flies, then most assuredly the plane makes the difference.

Either way, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The general conception is that the P-47 was an outstanding ground attack bird, and a good fighter.

The 190 is considered to be a better fighter by many.

Seems to me like the game models this situation very well.

Ratsack
02-08-2008, 03:22 AM
But does the P-47 come with Kinderwurst?

Ratsack

AnaK774
02-08-2008, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Copperhead I didn't want to do this, but if you complain, atleast be a good flier and THEN complain, your air hit rate on WarClouds were you flew over 150 sorties is 0,91% yes that's 0.91% Quite honestly and don't take it too personally - you need some help with shooting, less forum b1tching more QMB and flying drones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Very true.
Been on receiving end of his whole load of p47 ammo in a "tank" 109.
Somehow I remember that as it was hilarious due 10 min whinefest until
got bored and requested his gunstat.
2 hits according to server.
Just wondering how many rounds p-47d27 had... 2000 and ?
Apparently he has improved slightly since past http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Copper,
If you cant hit broad side of barn from inside, fly something else than fighter.
Static ground targets are easier, with 1000lb bomb you can get couple cars without
hitting directly, and going for mission target might attract some team players who
might provide cover as long as you fly reasonably and leave b1tching to ones having
more suitable equipment for it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Unfortunately guess cant join that contest.
Have too much sticktime in both http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pacificaces
02-08-2008, 04:54 AM
If you cant hit broad side of barn from inside, fly something else than fighter.
Static ground targets are easier,


Hehe if his rounds hit (ground) are anything to go by (2.82%)he would miss from the inside also http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Anak looking at his stats you can see what his beef is, this joker spends more time dead on that server than alive, 98 deaths out of 164 sorties and a 22.56% sortie completion rate.

No wonder he spends all his time bleating about it not being fair, maybe he should spend more time praticing and less time typing here. He should come back when he has learnt the basics. What a noob http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

PF_Coastie
02-08-2008, 05:02 AM
Copper,

Have a look at my STATS (http://www.war-clouds.com/modules.php?name=TARGET&theatre=WF&op=playerstats&pilotid=230) in the Jug. I looked at yours and you must be doing something wrong. I would be glad to do a sortie or two with you to see if you can gleen a few pointers from me when flying the Jug.

First of all, The jug will out dive any plane in the server. But, It will NOT outrun a Dora. All the Dora plot has to do is use angles to catch you. If you dive in from high alt doing 900kph to bomb a target and a dora sees you. He can anticipate where you are going and cut off that angle.

The Dora can't keep up with the jug in the dive, but it does have a much higher ground speed once leveled out and it holds that speed very well. The jug on the other hand loses its E very quickly on the deck allowing the Dora to catch up. A smart FW pilot knows this and will use the angles plus the higher level ground speed to catch the jug.

There is NO plane that will beat the Jug above 7km if it is flown correctly. If you get impatient and try to dogfight, you will likely lose against a good FW pilot, even at high alt.

Look for me this weekend and we can hook up on comms.

JG53Frankyboy
02-08-2008, 05:03 AM
talking about online statistic on any server is so senseless.....................

go to QMB - take a P-47D-27 with extra ammo and shoot at 8 friendly Fw190s or Bf109G

than take a Fw190A-8 with default arms and shoot at 8 friendly P-47D-27.

the difference is huge !
the Fw190 armament is much more superiour.

if the difference is reflecting the US Navy claim that one 20mm canon is worth 3x .50cal - i cant say.

anyway, in the game's typical snapshots, canons are MUCH superiour over MGs - as i said already.


but its nothing about red or blue bias in game........... use a Tempest instead of the Jug http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bewolf
02-08-2008, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
talking about online statistic on any server is so senseless.....................

go to QMB - take a P-47D-27 with extra ammo and shoot at 8 friendly Fw190s or Bf109G

than take a Fw190A-8 with default arms and shoot at 8 friendly P-47D-27.

the difference is huge !
the Fw190 armament is much more superiour.

if the difference is reflecting the US Navy claim that one 20mm canon is worth 3x .50cal - i cant say.

anyway, in the game's typical snapshots, canons are MUCH superiour over MGs - as i said already.


but its nothing about red or blue bias in game........... use a Tempest instead of the Jug http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, 0.1 hit percentage won't help you much even when you fly a FW. But you are right, the armament of US fighters always left a lot to ask for.

If you check real US guncam footage, you can clearly see how long american fighters fire on targets. 2 or 3 or more seconds at a time. You hardly will see that on IL2 servers as pilots tend to be much more "twitchy". I love flying the P51 and the 47, they are great planes all by themselves and fit my style of fighting perfectly.

They just lack punch.

Brain32
02-08-2008, 05:19 AM
Nope not so much the problem as climbing up to where i belong. 90% of the time i'm trying to climb up to alt in the same grid as home base and 90% of the time am shot down over said base whilte trying to get to my proper operating alt in the p-47.
Which will say you get attacked from a superiour position and maybe even by superiour numbers...it would be kinda sad that regardless of pilot skill anybody would be able to reverse on a FW190 attacking from superiour position.
I remember last time when I flew with you and when we both, and my squaddie got pwned by a group of FW's, the problem is - there was 5 of them against 3 of us and still not one of them survived that attack. We got shot because I scre'ed up and wasted all alt due to "mig madness" and then we got jumped by 4 more FW's...it's just a case of bad position.
I strongly recommend you take Coasties offer and wing up with him http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW when I religiously flew the P47D I had best results of all planes I flew in that time and landed 80% of my sorties and trust me, shooting DOES matter...a lot.

AFJ_rsm
02-08-2008, 06:25 AM
I'll wing up with you two's as well if I catch you


I'm willing to learn anything Coastie is willing to teach.

DKoor
02-08-2008, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
shooting DOES matter...a lot. QFT

No.1 issue with this game.

JtD
02-08-2008, 08:09 AM
The topic is about the Fw 190A, not D. And against an A, be it the -8 or the -9, neither the D-27 or the late D have problems dogfighting. Provided they carry a fuel load that gives them comparable endurance.

Diablo310th
02-08-2008, 08:38 AM
If you want to dogfight in a Jug you had better start at 20,000 ft and not go below it. I might get shot down occationally at those alts but i'll hold my own against anything even a Dora. The key is keeping your alt and speed up and chip away with well placed wingtip shots. It takes ALOT of patience to fly a Jug at high alts and stay there. Targets are few and far between but the joy of it is worth it. Too many Jug pilots get bored and tempted to go down to 15,000 ft, right in the FW's prime spot. If you're going to do that you had better be zooming right back up to 20,000 fast. The Jug is a great fighter...above 20,000 ft. As far as the 50's are concerned.....it's not easy to see where your rounds are hitting and long bursts will shake your ac. enough to throw off msot rounds as well as net lag. Keep bursts short and on target. Hit...climb.......dive...hit...climb.

Copperhead311th
02-08-2008, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
If you want to dogfight in a Jug you had better start at 20,000 ft and not go below it. I might get shot down occationally at those alts but i'll hold my own against anything even a Dora. The key is keeping your alt and speed up and chip away with well placed wingtip shots. It takes ALOT of patience to fly a Jug at high alts and stay there. Targets are few and far between but the joy of it is worth it. Too many Jug pilots get bored and tempted to go down to 15,000 ft, right in the FW's prime spot. If you're going to do that you had better be zooming right back up to 20,000 fast. The Jug is a great fighter...above 20,000 ft. As far as the 50's are concerned.....it's not easy to see where your rounds are hitting and long bursts will shake your ac. enough to throw off msot rounds as well as net lag. Keep bursts short and on target. Hit...climb.......dive...hit...climb.

As Diablo can atest to i know what i'm doing.
Iv'e been flying the p-47 in this sim since day 1. the amount of reading/research iv'e done on this plane, it's pilots, tactics, and combat operation could fill a small library. but operating THIS p-47 in the combat invorement that we operate in virtually is as we all know, much differnt than it was historically. and as such some of the things we get away with here would never have played out that way in real life. So i've taken what i've learned and applied it to the sim.
Now i've flown with Diablo since 2003/2004 some where around that time frame. So if anyone can vouch for me in ap-47 he can. When i was C/O for that squadron our hard deck was 12,000 to 15,000 feet. and the only time our jugs went below that alt was eaither when we were ground pounding, or if we got called down to help some one who was in touble. and belive me we kept our E up and stayed in the vertical.
That hard deck is still in place today. and if i'm ever below that it's becuase i'm taking off, landing, attacking ground targets,or get called down to help.
So for some of you to even sugjest that i need some one to teach me how to fly the p-47 in this sim correctly....is pretty much an insult.

next you'll be having me post my ntrks for review.

Aaron_GT
02-08-2008, 11:08 AM
JtD:

190D versions P47 would be interesting. The firepower should be pretty much equal. The 190D seems to fly more smoothly than the A from my experiences flying it online as opposition for squad training sessions.

Aaron_GT
02-08-2008, 11:13 AM
The P-47 certainly does very well as a fighter bomber. I haven't tried the 190 series online in the same role, but the P-47 can hump a lot of stuff about. Neither the 190A and P-47 are really that fast at sea level, though. That probably hurts the 190A more as the likes of the Mustang III and Tempest-V are fast down low, whereas any speed advantage at sea level from the Axis fighters (save the jets is less), assuming you survive the initial pass. Depends on the mix of planes available on the server, of course.

PF_Coastie
02-08-2008, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
As Diablo can atest to i know what i'm doing.
Iv'e been flying the p-47 in this sim since day 1. the amount of reading/research iv'e done on this plane, it's pilots, tactics, and combat operation could fill a small library. but operating THIS p-47 in the combat invorement that we operate in virtually is as we all know, much differnt than it was historically. and as such some of the things we get away with here would never have played out that way in real life. So i've taken what i've learned and applied it to the sim.
Now i've flown with Diablo since 2003/2004 some where around that time frame. So if anyone can vouch for me in ap-47 he can. When i was C/O for that squadron our hard deck was 12,000 to 15,000 feet. and the only time our jugs went below that alt was eaither when we were ground pounding, or if we got called down to help some one who was in touble. and belive me we kept our E up and stayed in the vertical.
That hard deck is still in place today. and if i'm ever below that it's becuase i'm taking off, landing, attacking ground targets,or get called down to help.
So for some of you to even sugjest that i need some one to teach me how to fly the p-47 in this sim correctly....is pretty much an insult.

next you'll be having me post my ntrks for review.

Well then I guess you just can't learn anything more, you already know it all...obviously.

What is really obvious is that you ARE doing something wrong by looking at your stats in the Jug on WC. If you are diving in below your hard deck to save someone, I would give you less than 50% survival rate. That is likely the result of your very poor stats. I do NOT go below 4km for anyone unless I am over my airfield.

Have fun learning by yourself and I rescind my offer to help. Maybe I will even get up in a dora and kill you a few times, that would be fun.

foxyboy1964
02-08-2008, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
Have fun learning by yourself and I rescind my offer to help. Maybe I will even get up in a dora and kill you a few times, that would be fun.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif be sure to get an ntrk Coastie.

pacificaces
02-08-2008, 03:08 PM
So for some of you to even sugjest that i need some one to teach me how to fly the p-47 in this sim correctly....is pretty much an insult.


Your stats might be a joke, but I`ll give it to you your ego is second to none. Well done.


When i was C/O for that squadron

This just goes to prove how idiotic online squadrons can be, that a joke of a "pilot" can rise to status of "CO" with out any real ability.

M_Gunz
02-08-2008, 04:44 PM
Poor hit stats can be increased just by having a better idea of when not to shoot and a trigger
time diet. If you have ntrk then you can step through shots and examine sight picture and
flying conditions including slip then see where the fire goes and how so much of it misses.

There's a timing between shot and target that helps me judge lead. I switch planes and guns,
for a while I'm not going to do so well.

Of course you can really minimize your hit % by hosing shots freely. OTOH you can have better
hit stat but by spreading the hits still be no more effective at all.

All these things can be seen and learned, even getting a feel for how long from gun to hit
when you take them through playback. Unless you think your shooting can't be improved....

FoxThree
02-08-2008, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

As Diablo can atest to i know what i'm doing.
Iv'e been flying the p-47 in this sim since day 1. >snip<
So for some of you to even sugjest that i need some one to teach me how to fly the p-47 in this sim correctly....is pretty much an insult.

next you'll be having me post my ntrks for review.

Just because you've been flying that bird from day one does not mean you've been flying it right all along. I get this line all the time ... "I've been doing it this way for thirty years"... to which I reply "does'nt mean you've been doing it right for thirty years".

You should have taken up on coasties offer. You might have learned somethin. But then You are not looking for answers but methinks rather excuses. Be Sure.

Lubcke
02-08-2008, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
copperhead311 = nooberhead311

is that the best you got for a personal attack ja@ckass? and your calling me a noob? come back when you have more than 50 posts here.
better yet drag your noob @ss back under what ever other UBI forum rock you crawled out of and leave this to the adults. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have noticed, havent you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'd rather spend my time flying, then whining in the forums like yourself, mister adult Nooberhead311th http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

jasonbirder
02-09-2008, 02:39 AM
Anyone that his issues with the hitting power of the P47's 8 (yes 8!!) .50 calibre should spend some time flying an early war IJA plane with 2 MGs...they'll appreciate what they've got when they go back to the P47 after that believe me!

jasonbirder
02-09-2008, 03:37 AM
Besides...what is he trying to prove here anyway...
In the game people may look and think P47D American late war fighter should be "balanced" (Whatever that means) with FW190A8 or FW190D9 German late war fighter...but we're not talking about a game..as far is it can it its own slightly flawed way IL2 tries to be a simulator and in real life you are comparing completely different animals...
The D9 was designed as a pure fighter...it was small and maneuverable..it didn't need long range and it didn't need "mission sustainability" it did need hard hitting armerment so it could damage and cripple big tough 4 engined bombers...
The P47 was a long range escort fighter...it needed to be bigger..carry more fuel...be more reliable...its armerment needed to have long firing times so it could shout at fighters if necessary on the way to the target...over the target...on the return from the target...it was shooting at fighters not bombers...and as an escort fighter it only needed to damage its targets and cause them to break off to fulfill it mission...
Is it any wonder then that if you pitch them against each other in a completely artificial duel type environment...one outperforms the other?
Bias...no...simulation...yes!