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harold x
08-18-2005, 10:09 AM
i am currenty flying as russian pilot in my first ever campaign as a russian pilot. Heck i am getting my *** kicked. I am currently flying a i-16 18 and connot get near the 109f.How the russian pilots coped such inferior planes is a miracle. Can it hey any worse.any tips to combat the 109 with a 1-16.

3.JG51_BigBear
08-18-2005, 10:17 AM
The problem is the Russians didn't cope for the most part, they got there butts handed to them. You have to suck the 109 into a turning fight. Try staying above them and circling. If they have to climb to your altitude they'll be slow and low on energy. That's the time to take them in a turning combat.

Stigler_9_JG52
08-18-2005, 11:54 AM
Try "staying above them"? ROFTL. That's rich.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif An I-16 with an altitude advantage over a Bf109? That's like saying "a dog with wings".

vanjast
08-18-2005, 11:57 AM
Here's trick you can try...

Whenever I'm at a lower altitude, and the 'enemy' dive into the attack, I would also dive to match his speed (of course you need some height, but this is not a problem). So assuming you can dive a bit, the I-16 is more manouverable than the Me109, do a scissors and roll over the top keeping and eye on your attacker as he whizzes pass. If he's got one, attack his wingman first as this will put the leader at a disadvantage. This will probably force them into high-g turns, but you should always now nail them.

Good Luck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Edt: With online play you WILL be surprised how many fall for this very simple tactic

3.JG51_BigBear
08-18-2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Try "staying above them"? ROFTL. That's rich.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif An I-16 with an altitude advantage over a Bf109? That's like saying "a dog with wings".

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It could happen...the wings on the dog thing, I don't know what I was thinking when I said you try for an alt advantage. That'll never happen.

Pirschjaeger
08-18-2005, 12:30 PM
If I'm in the 109 against AI I-16's it's no problem. But, if online against a human I stay clear of the I-16's. They can turn on a dime and hit you from long distances.

I think the only way to deal with the I-16 is to BnZ. Anything else is suicide.

If you are in an I-16 let the 109 come after you. As he closes in and just before he can fire on you turn one way and then quickly back. You'll have to be fast at this. As he passes you fire a burst or two at him. The 109 engines are very fragile.

Try this a few times and you're bound to get him.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
08-18-2005, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Try "staying above them"? ROFTL. That's rich.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif An I-16 with an altitude advantage over a Bf109? That's like saying "a dog with wings".

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It could happen...the wings on the dog thing, I don't know what I was thinking when I said you try for an alt advantage. That'll never happen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alt advantage? I thought you were joking when I first read it.

I was flying online the other day against a buddy. We agreed to meet at a certain coordinate. I was flying the 109 F2 and had no idea what he'd be flying. Finally we found each other. I was at 3500m and he was way below. I thought he was playing some sort of wierd psycological trick since he wouldn't come up to fight.

We circled and circle for a long time. I couldn't understand why he wouldn't come up to fight. Turned out he was flying the I-16. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Then it all made sense. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz

F19_Ob
08-18-2005, 12:38 PM
I agree with the above posters that it's a difficult situation to be in.

As U most probably have noticed the 109 is faster and that it has no problem to push the stick forward and keep the speed, wich U can't in the I-16.

The 109 will be superior as long as it doesn't have to turn or maneuver hard.
It will easily pull away and climb so u can't follow.

In real life the russians found themselves easy targets and could only start a defensive circle if they were a group.
The 109's still tried to pick them off by diving down in high speed and then quickly away and up again.
The circle enabled the russians to atleast get a few firingoportunities but they couldn't escape and were forced to circle until the germans left.
Sometimes the russians were lucky when only few or none of the germans above wanted to dive on the circle. The reason was that there was a small, but still a risk to get shot at, and often they could achieve their objective by just holding the russians occupied while their bombers could attack their targets or get away.


This was just a small background for inspiration.

Not all is lost and there are things to try in these situations.
The strengths of the I-16 is the fastfiring mg's and the cannons (on the ones that have'em)
and it's sharp turn wich is slightly better than the 109.

As u already have noticed U have to avoid bunting (pushing stick forward) in the I-16 as this may cut out the engine or slow u down.
In a fight with 109's one must try to be as fast as possible and avoid energybleeding moves if it's not nescessary.

Flying the plane to the limit is very good but it still won't catch the 109 in most situations.
The best thing U can do is try to force the 109 to maneuver by hitting it and continue to do so.
-----------------------------------------------


This is what I suggest:

Set up a 1 vs 1 fight in quickmissionbuilder.

1. when the fight begin try line up a shot in space infront of the 109 and fire a long burst so its likely he fly into it.
U can be lucky to hit a vital spot at once but the important thing is that u try to force him to maneuver and lose his energy and try to conserve yours as much as possible.

2. If u get him to maneuver u can come closer and keep on firing short bursts if only with mg's

3. remember to save the track when you're done because u then can examine how well u shot and if u must pull more or less lead, or fire a longer burst.

Watching tracks enables u to correct and perfect your shooting and the more times u do it and think about what u are doing, the better u will remember the sitiuations and angles when to shoot and not to do it.
Remember that u can speed up or slow down the track and watch from outside from your own plane aswell the enemys.

I often fire on too long ranges where its unlikely to hit, but if it makes the enemy react and evade it may improve your situation.
This is especially effective online.

Personally I think it's very important to practise shooting on longranges aswell as it increases the shooting opportunities, wich is especially important when dealing with better planes.


well, a few thoughts.

--------------------------------------------

If u wan't I can put together a few example tracks.
But then U must have the FB+AEP+PF 'merged' install and the latest patches because the track wont be compatible with your setup otherwise.
U also must send me your e-mail in a private topic so I know where to send it. Regular track files are small.

OMK_Hand
08-18-2005, 01:07 PM
Hi harold x.

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious.

Along with all of the above suggestions, it is extremely important to be able to see the enemy - where he is in relation to you, guage his energy state, see his attitude in relation to yours, and try to work out what he is going to have to do next.
If you cannot currently look directly at him, then configure your setup so that you can.

Don't rely on the cockpit off 'radar' arrows for information.

Being able to easily look where you need to goes a long way in combat.

Gruffysquirt
08-18-2005, 01:16 PM
Unfortunately, he doesn't have cannons.

A Type 18 is a real bummer in this situations because the four pea-shooters are going to require a long firing opportunity to do any damage. This is why I always try for the Type 24.

At any rate, patience is key. If you aren't being pursued (against the AI anyway) just chase the 109. You'll lose ground on him, yes, but eventually he'll turn back and try for a pass.

It usually goes like this: At about 1.2 or 1.3 km he'll roll over almost onto his back and make a diving turn. Here's your opportunity...with some practice you can get good at predicting where he's going and turn inside of him. (As in, you lose visual contact, because you put him down under your nose somewhere.) It can be a bit nerve wracking to be turning inside of a superior (speed and armament-wise) opponent, but stick with it. 7 or 8 times out of 10, you'll see that zippy little bugger pop up in your wind screen again, and, while he's still going faster than you, he's in firing range (.30 to .50). Line up and take your shot. As has been said, the 109 engine is fragile, and a good burst (with those little 7.92s) will leave trails of smoke or fuel or something positive. Then life gets easier for you.

If you find that the enemy is still out of firing range when he comes back into view, stick with him. If you're on his six he can't shoot you, and somehow it seems that the AI gets greedy or frantic, and it'll start repeating these kind of manuevers at shorter and shorter distances from you, and eventually, you'll bag your bird.

Just watch your six, often, if a wingman is still about, this is a draw tactic designed to get you killed.

Gruffysquirt
08-18-2005, 01:38 PM
I just went and gave it a quick try in the QMB, and while I didn't kill anybody, I did survive, and damaged one of the bf's.

I have a track of this recorded, if you'd like it emailed to you.

Kuna15
08-18-2005, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Try "staying above them"? ROFTL. That's rich.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif An I-16 with an altitude advantage over a Bf109? That's like saying "a dog with wings".

What is wrong with that? Yesterday I have flown Rata at 2,5k and praying on Spitfire at lower alt. Got a few kills that way, because they basically can't run from me (I catch them most of the times) on my first pass on them. If I miss I don't get a second chance on smart folks.

Anyway sometimes it work sometimes it does not.

TacticalYak3
08-18-2005, 02:38 PM
Did the history lesson and textbook answers help harold x ? Hope so mate.

OK, getting back to the game. I use to love the I-16 campaigns, as I really enjoy the Rata. Yes, of course her strengths are turnfights down low.

The problem I experienced when trying this particular campaign since the last patch is the improvements to the AI Bf-109 piloting. Before, the AI would burn all its energy and foolish turnfight down low.

Now, it seems you are forever chasing them without catching anything. While it might be historically correct, doesn't do much for your "score sheet."

Every situation is a bit different, but you're going to have to bait them to turnfight whenever possible. Use your machine guns a little bit to get them flying defensive. Have you tried rockets yet? Oh, sorry that only comes with the next model (18 really sucks btw).

My advice is to stick with it until you learn how to bait the enemy, or get the better I-16 model, or just move onto a different campaign with a more even matched planes with regards to speed.

Darn smart AI.

Regards,
TactS!

DmdSeeker
08-18-2005, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by harold x:
i am currenty flying as russian pilot in my first ever campaign as a russian pilot. Heck i am getting my *** kicked. I am currently flying a i-16 18 and connot get near the 109f.How the russian pilots coped such inferior planes is a miracle. Can it hey any worse.any tips to combat the 109 with a 1-16.

1) Survive; survive; survive. Depending on your campaign setings; it's not inconciveable that you can live to get an La-7; then it'sy our turn ;-)

2) Yes it can be worse. Russia wins in the end. I've only tried the one losing campaigne; Poland; but I imagine a well written French or Dutch campaign would have the same effect.

(How lucky we Brits were to have the best fighter of them all; the Spitfire! everybody else lost!)

jugent
08-18-2005, 03:30 PM
Dont fly against AI, sometimes its like if u dont shall survive, your mates crash into u, flaks takes u out inside a cloud.
The AI-fighters do things that no human pilot can do.
Join a server instead and accept this game as an arcade-game

AlGroover
08-19-2005, 04:42 AM
This sounds like you signed up for the first available campaign in FB. Unfortunately, the I16 is not an easy aircraft to fly. I suggest you go for the P40 option for Leningrad fighter to start with. It's a much friendlier ride.

SeaFireLIV
08-19-2005, 05:28 AM
Some excellent responses here and really there`s little I can add except that if you want a real offline challenge in Campaign, fly the I16 against Jerry. The difficulty in my view is pretty close to reality, but not impossible.

If you cannot catch the LW, then turn for home, wait for the next mission.

SeaFireLIV
08-19-2005, 05:32 AM
I must add that the I16 is still one of my favourite rides. In fact, I`m happy when a Lufty plane comes onto my 6! both offline and on! Because I know he`s where I want him! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Why doesn`t Warclouds allow Russian planes?

p1ngu666
08-19-2005, 07:58 AM
theres a eastern front warclouds i think, now.
on western front, its erm western front..

i16 = maxium attack

also aim for cockpit/ engine if u can, but if u can hit it, shoot it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
08-19-2005, 08:43 AM
Hi,

You should, largely, fare better against AI 109s than human pilots because they simply do not bnz....but they do run. Online, an I16 can make for a difficult target but you're rarely going to beat the 109 if they bnz correctly.

There's not a lot of help to give, really, as most of the advice so already posted is good.

Ta,
Norris

Stigler_9_JG52
08-19-2005, 12:59 PM
Kuna15 wrote:

Try "staying above them"? ROFTL. That's rich.
An I-16 with an altitude advantage over a Bf109? That's like saying "a dog with wings".


What is wrong with that? Yesterday I have flown Rata at 2,5k and praying on Spitfire at lower alt.

No Bf109 pilot worth his salt would EVER cede an alt advantage to a lowly Rat. I can't speak for a Spit pilot... but that's just not a realistic assumption. It's almost as rare as "a Rata at 2.5KM alt". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Amagi
08-25-2005, 12:36 PM
If you want to fly I-16 DGen missions you could try my series of Eastern Front campaigns, Disaster on the Frontiers (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_campaigns_dof.htm), which has new templates with far more targets.

The campaigns are suitable for low to medium range computers, though the first minutes of the first day of the war can cause difficulties, as can any mission where a group of bombers drop bombs on the same target.

The best advice is not to get isolated and to avoid losing altitude in combat. Most losses occur when multiple fighters engage a single enemy. It's far harder to out-turn two or more 109s.

han freak solo
08-25-2005, 12:42 PM
Thanks for the link and the recent update!

Xiolablu3
08-25-2005, 02:11 PM
I would get them into a turn fight and just keep turning till you get on the tail of one.

Of course the problem is disengaging after you run out of ammo.

Just a questionm of luck im afraid. Try and draw them low over your flak if you can.

Kuna15
08-25-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Kuna15 wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Try "staying above them"? ROFTL. That's rich.
An I-16 with an altitude advantage over a Bf109? That's like saying "a dog with wings".


What is wrong with that? Yesterday I have flown Rata at 2,5k and praying on Spitfire at lower alt.

No Bf109 pilot worth his salt would EVER cede an alt advantage to a lowly Rat. I can't speak for a Spit pilot... but that's just not a realistic assumption. It's almost as rare as "a Rata at 2.5KM alt". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stigler the thread poster has problems with AI Bf-109s, he shouldn't have much problems to get initial altitude advantage over them.
------------------------------------------------

I am not a regular Ishak flyer, but I've seen what they are capable of versus Bf-109E online. If Bf-109 pilot make a mistake and lose his speed/alt advantage he is likely to be killed by I-16 pilot if he don't succeed in running away.

Once when Bf-109E isn't on considerable higher altitude that Rata, involving in fight isn't smart thing to do.

Bf-109E vs. I-16type24 fight can be really painful experience for most Bf-109 players online. Simple because he must surprise Rata with high speed, but taking into consideration Rata's manouverability and Bf-109 elevator on high speed that is not easy job. Not to mention that with every new pass altitude advantage worns off fast...

Probably the most succesful defensive Rata tactic is to make a hard break to one side everytime Bf-109 pilot position himself for burst (when Bf-109 enters gun range). If that is strictly obeyed and good executed Bf-109 will have a hard time that is for sure.

Amagi
08-25-2005, 03:33 PM
There was a problem with the v1.2 'Disaster on the Frontiers' download which has been resolved with v1.3. The problem was restricted to a few campaigns, does not prevent the generation of missions, and can be fixed with a simple text edit. Howver, if you've already installed v1.2, you need to install v1.3 over it.