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Stiglr
01-30-2005, 04:23 PM
I just read a nice review of the latest TrackIR iteration on Die, Sim Fanboi, Die (http://www.diesimfanboi.com/). It brought up a few questions I've always had about using this system. What effect does "body English" have on the views?

I don't notice it much when I'm in virtual combat, but I lean into turns, I lean forward to get close to the monitor, trying to "clarify" dots that should be obvious, but in IL-2 aren't http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , I sometimes even duck or hunch my shoulders when there's a chance I might get blasted while making that last ditch barrel roll.

Would this kind of movement wreak havoc with my in-game views, churning them around to make me seasick?

I also took a look at the nice video somebody made of PF with TrackIR, and posted it this week. Actually, I didn't see that much difference between that and what I can get with a hatswitch and up-modifier pinky switch in snap view. My views on a hat would be slighly more "choppy" (sometimes you snap through a view or two to get where you're going, or your thumb slips and creates a very momentary pan glitch), but overall, my tracking of bogies, my ability to quickly check around and return forward for a shot, etc. are very fluid. The only views I really have to "think about" are, for example, the floor port view in a Stuka, which I have to use my keypad for, to get "look down", or to see the instruments in a Zero.

Stiglr
01-30-2005, 04:23 PM
I just read a nice review of the latest TrackIR iteration on Die, Sim Fanboi, Die (http://www.diesimfanboi.com/). It brought up a few questions I've always had about using this system. What effect does "body English" have on the views?

I don't notice it much when I'm in virtual combat, but I lean into turns, I lean forward to get close to the monitor, trying to "clarify" dots that should be obvious, but in IL-2 aren't http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , I sometimes even duck or hunch my shoulders when there's a chance I might get blasted while making that last ditch barrel roll.

Would this kind of movement wreak havoc with my in-game views, churning them around to make me seasick?

I also took a look at the nice video somebody made of PF with TrackIR, and posted it this week. Actually, I didn't see that much difference between that and what I can get with a hatswitch and up-modifier pinky switch in snap view. My views on a hat would be slighly more "choppy" (sometimes you snap through a view or two to get where you're going, or your thumb slips and creates a very momentary pan glitch), but overall, my tracking of bogies, my ability to quickly check around and return forward for a shot, etc. are very fluid. The only views I really have to "think about" are, for example, the floor port view in a Stuka, which I have to use my keypad for, to get "look down", or to see the instruments in a Zero.

LStarosta
01-30-2005, 04:27 PM
I save the drama for real life flying, where it is most needed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

FoolTrottel
01-30-2005, 04:48 PM
Well, I got TrackIR about a month ago, I'm not into it completely jet (I'm not a pil2ot every day).
I too 'suffer' from these sudden dramatic movements, what's shown onscreen is a bit unexpected when this happens, but I find my head (and view!) is fairley quickly back into the normal position, without much trouble. (Gets 'natural')
As for getting seasick.... well, I get motion sickness in a car rather easily, when I'm a passenger and not looking outside (like when reading a map). I need the car's/my movements confirmed by eye sight...
As for TIR in this matter: no problem. (I'm not moving I guess....)

I guess what slowly happens when using TIR is that you stop moving about too much ...

LuckyBoy1
01-30-2005, 05:34 PM
I have the Track IR Pro 3 with the Vector option. The vector option makes it so the device sees 3 points of reflective tape. This makes it so the programming, once enabled by Naturalpoint that is (so making one yourself won't work) this takes a great deal of the jittery motions and body english affects out of the equation. You can get a combo pack only at this place...

https://magnum-pc.securewebsiteserver.net/product_info.php?cPath=74&products_id=665&osCsid=a1d387b193da622bd55674419cea2f7a

LuckyBoy1
01-30-2005, 05:50 PM
And oh yeah, don't get confused and think the Vector thingy won't help smooth things out in a game that doesn't support some strange, Vector type feature. My combined install is smooth as glass!

Yes, there will be a learning curve and especially if you've never flown much in the way of small planes in the first place, your eyes will not agree with your ears as far as your relative position and the brain will become a bit sick trying to deal with it... well, sicker than it normally is! If you are going to go Track IR, go with the Track IR Pro 3 and Vector thingy. It will make the picture smoother to have the vector and the Pro 3 will aloow you to use higher refrsh rates. Don't let your "friend" talk you into buying his dated track IR because quite frankly, that's not a very friendly thing to do to someone! (most of the time that is and yes, I'm sure there is the rare case where someone would never upgrade to a faster refreshing monitor or care about not having jittery movement in their Track IR.

civildog
01-30-2005, 07:47 PM
OK, I have a stupid question about the TrackIR now that the wife says I can have one.

The site is iffy on this point: does this thing allow me to look ANYWHERE from within the cockpit...over my shoulder, scan my instruments, down through the window in floor of my Dauntless, and straight up? The reason I ask is because the video doesn't show much of that, mainly just side to side with a little bit of the top of the front canopy.

And since I have that $30.00 off coupon from Pacific Fighters I want the Pro model.

WolfK33
01-30-2005, 08:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
OK, I have a stupid question about the TrackIR now that the wife says I can have one.

The site is iffy on this point: does this thing allow me to look ANYWHERE from within the cockpit...over my shoulder, scan my instruments, down through the window in floor of my Dauntless, and straight up? The reason I ask is because the video doesn't show much of that, mainly just side to side with a little bit of the top of the front canopy.

And since I have that $30.00 off coupon from Pacific Fighters I want the Pro model. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can look anywhere with a TrackIr where you can look without one, meaning the view limitations or borders are the same as when using your hat.


And, to the starter of this thread:


I use a TrackIr 2 (started with LockOn, now back to IL2/PF, beautiful just the same) in combination with the "TrackHat", a Baseball-Cap with reflective dots at the front and rear, and I also was very suspicious of that device when I first heard about it ("great, you just need somebody to carry your monitor around while you turn your head!"),but now I can´t imagine flying without it anymore, and to go even farther, I can´t imagine how I ever had fun flying sims before...

Yes, it does take some time getting used to,for one I really was getting a little seasick in the first few hours using it and I noticed how many unconscious movements I made before while flying, like turning my head while turning the plane.But don´t worry, as the other poster said after a while it gets completely natural.And with the TrackIr software you can make profiles with response-curves and stuff to configure it just the way you want it.

After a little while of getting used to it it will just feel as if you´re really looking behind you, or looking down besides your left wing or whatever.

Formation flying or dogfighting or just cruisin´ around will never be the same for you!

If you got the chance to get a TrackIr, get it !!! NOW!!

And no, I´m not paid by Naturalpoint... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So, get one and have fun with it,

Greetings,

Wolf

LuckyBoy1
01-30-2005, 08:28 PM
It will let you look anywhere the game allows you to look and that varies game to game. If you think you are going to lean around and see the compass on your sptifire in this game, you will be sadly mistaken!

civildog
01-30-2005, 09:17 PM
Too bad about the compass, but I can live with it.

Thanks y'all, I'll go get one this week!

LuckyBoy1
01-30-2005, 10:22 PM
To clarify... that's not a Track IR limitation about not being able to lean around and look from other angles in the cockpit, it is a IL-2 limitation. some games have a feature where you can see from other angles and in those, yes, the device works fine for that.

civildog
01-30-2005, 10:48 PM
I know, it's just poor ergonomic planning on the part of the Supermarine designers.

I just want ot be able to quickly scan my instruments, look above me in a turn, etc. I'll have one by Saturday. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jettexas
01-30-2005, 11:27 PM
Had one just over a month, used every other mouse emu available at one time or another(New View ,etc etc,) never did the left handed mouse thing..As other posters have said,it wont allow to see any more of the world than you already can, the difference for me as opposed to the other software is the smoothness of the tracking, just like turning your head..for instance fly along at 500m wings level, pick an object close in,on the ground and look at it, as it passes either side continue to track it,then work through the zooms, you can stay right on it at any zoom level .Never could do that with any other solution,(new view properly tuned was close) helps tremendously in close quarters,
As to the tendency to move around in your seat a bit, you can tune out most small movements with the software -the key is a bit of deadzone in your profile preventing small/unintentional movements from being translated in game.

Not a shill for Naturalpoint, just a satisfied customer. If you are a sim nut youll dig it.

S!
Jettexas/96thRedfish

GAU-8
01-31-2005, 12:50 AM
bar none the best enhancement for immersion of this sim (greatest CONTROL, would be the flightsticks)..

body english does affect it somehwat, on JUST the track-ir 3 pro, and lower models. VECTOR programming solves a lot of this, but the most shakey of moves in most cases.

i realised that wheni had only the 3 PRO at the time, i didnt have to keep my head or body "ROCK SOLID".. its only that way AT FIRST. after a few initial hours your not used to it, so your trying to keep still, because your not used to the small movements your head does. after a while (maybe several weeks) it kinda subconciously sinks in that you ARE in the cockpit, because the tiny movements you do affect the viewing. i kind of miss that, its soooo smooth with VECTOR, almost "fake" compared to the "real" shakes/movement/jitters i had gotten so used to. :P

you cannot BEND/SHIFT in the cockpit for extra views in this game, essentially the virtual head is only on a pivot. anywhere you see in game though, you can control with track-IR.

now MSFS2004, you can look anywhere in the cockpit, at just about any angle, because the game has almost fully 3D cockpit models. MS didnt intend for full cockpit veiwing,so some of the 3D models will have gaps in them. not a problem really though in most of your flight time if you use this program, youll be busy looking out the window at different angles, or the instruments. not looking too much at the floorboard(?) behind your seat.

some people have no interest in this product whatesover "i can control camera with mouse, and fly just fine". true, but doesnt it make sence to control head movements with your head rather than a hand? if they TRIED it, they would understand...and ain 99.999999 percent of cases never go back to hatswitch or mouse again.

T_O_A_D
01-31-2005, 12:51 AM
I take it some of you haven't read my sig?

Satisfied Customer here.

I haven't broke down and updated my TIR3pro to the 6dof thingy yet, so I can't comment on it yet.
But in my sig there is an old track from my origianl TIR unit and a much slower machine than what I have now. Watch it and see for yourself It is much better now. I might make a track and show you how it is now and place it over on that thread to soon. Maybe

LuckyBoy1
01-31-2005, 12:59 AM
Yes, T_O_A_D!!! Tell me, this sphincter thingy... I mean Vector thingy I've got... it has 3 reflectors that are curved on the horizontal avis, but not on the vertical axis. I wonder how your mod would work if I used 3 of those balls? The Vector thingy works great until you move your head down quite a bit or to the side quite a bit. It's no biggy, but maybe the balls would save me from having to center the device as often... what do you think?

IAFS_Painter
01-31-2005, 02:00 AM
You'll get mostly positive comments in one of these threads.

I use TrackIR 2, with a hat adapted following Toad's instructions.
I'm very pleased with that (as LB says, go for TIR3 with the vector adaption).

There are some people who never do adapt to TIR.
If you are one of these, I'm sure you'll find plenty of people to take it off your hands - even for a fair price.

Lucius_Esox
01-31-2005, 06:07 AM
Track IR improves your effectiveness. I've had mine about a month now and to begin with I thought AaaAAgh. My problem was that I noticed when I line up to do something hard (Land, take shot etc) I moved my head. I had to unlearn that because it was screwing things up a bit. Am just getting the hang now so it can be done just takes time. I tried flying with my hat s/w again just to see what it was like, awfull, horrible. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Seriously once you get used to it you WILL wonder how you did without it.

Nope I dont work for Natualpoint: wish I did!

Bogun
01-31-2005, 07:39 AM
Stiglr

In the old TrackIR v.1 days all those leaning forward, ducking, tweaching was really wreaking havoc with my IL-2 gameplay. I was actually very surprised how much of my unintended movement was taking place while flying in IL-2.
It is all in the past though. The €œnew€ TrackIR software allow you to use either €œMouse View€ (the old style) or €œEnhanced Mode€. The last mode is really turn all things around for me. What was taking great effort with €œMouse View€ €" keeping my head movements to the minimal, forcing myself to hold still at all times is no longer that important. With €œEnhanced Mode€ you can define pretty generous €œDead Zone€ in the middle of your screen, where sudden movements of your head would not mean any jerking of the picture. Also €œReturn to center€ in Enhanced Mode took care of another most annoying inconvenience of the old TrackIR software.

To conclude €" once setup properly new TrackIR with its Enhanced Mode, even without Vector, will definitely bring the game to a totally new level. You may not believe this while reading the posts on the forum, but once you try €" there will be no turning back.
There are some people, new to TrackIR, who initially experience problems with its proper setup, but all their hardship usually is quickly overcome with the help of willing experienced TrackIR users on this forum. The only two things needed €" proper €œDot placement€ and good IL-2 TrackIR profile. Once new TrackIR user see what Dead Zone in the Enhanced Mode does €" he will quickly adjust profile given to him according to his own preferences and that whould be the end of all troubles.
If you think Il-2 is great without TrackIR - just wait till you try playing game with it...

T_O_A_D
01-31-2005, 09:46 AM
Luckyboy I mentioned it early on about the vector thingy, I assumed it would be three balls or at least three half balls so TIR would have a radius to look at no matter the head position.

I know with the Ball I don't have these complaints as some above have or I've become so intune with my TIR I just don't have bad habits. I'm not sure. I know I can move around alot I mean alot and seldom if ever loose center.

I know If I had one I would make a duplicate of it with tree smaller balls. Just how big are the reflectors on this thing?

I'm using the latest drivers, with my setup aswell. To bad I can't unlock it and play around with me Balls hehehehe

Just goes to show ya even that will cost me a bit of cash. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

If I was only a beta tester for them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

LuckyBoy1
01-31-2005, 01:31 PM
The reflectors are 1/4 inch wide and 1 inch long. They are curved, but only about 15 degrees at the most along the horizontal axis only.

Got a link to a supplier of reflective tape beyond naturalpoint?

RevvinUK
01-31-2005, 02:37 PM
You will need to learn to sit still, not bolt upright but just not move around quite so much. You can add a good portion of deadband into the TrackIR to cut down the effect you're small head movements make. In the case of the vector expansion for the TrackIR if you lean forward your virtual head will lean forward ie to look down at cockpit dials or to zoom the view in slowly as you move in closer. I don't like to fly without the TrackIR, not because it's substantially better than using a hat swith (although I feel it is an improvement especially if slowly tracking a con over your cockpit canopy in a lag pursuit) but I just feel a little more immersed in a sim which supports the TrackIR. Don't view it as being better, view it as being an aid to immersion just as much as a joystick aids your immersion as opposed to using the cursor keys.

rijnton1944
01-31-2005, 03:31 PM
Can only confirm what was said above. As a newbie with IL-2 and flight sims in general, I bought the TrackIR3Pro 2 weeks ago and although I still have to get used to it, I couldn't play without it anymore.

T_O_A_D
01-31-2005, 09:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
The reflectors are 1/4 inch wide and 1 inch long. They are curved, but only about 15 degrees at the most along the horizontal axis only.

Got a link to a supplier of reflective tape beyond naturalpoint? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My gues would be some where between a 3/8" to a 1/2" ball would work. Id cut them in half and only use one side though I don't think you actually need a full ball. Let me know if you try it.

LuckyBoy1
01-31-2005, 11:11 PM
Ok, so, do you have a link to some place where I can get this reflective tape. Will any type of reflective tape like the stuff for bicycles work?

T_O_A_D
02-01-2005, 10:10 AM
Just found this http://www.dogbooties.com/ad3mreftap.html
I got mine while working on Semi trucks and using my Snapon infared tach. Mine is 1/2" wide stuff though. If you just can't get any send me a PT