PDA

View Full Version : Downwind turns?



p-11.cAce
02-18-2006, 11:44 AM

p-11.cAce
02-18-2006, 11:44 AM

jimDG
02-18-2006, 12:05 PM
False. All that matters is a/c speed relative to the air. Thats one and the same in a turn, regardless of how the air is moving wrt the ground.

p-11.cAce
02-18-2006, 02:51 PM
Well I guess pilot knowledge is better than I thought in here - of course you are correct Jim. I still fight this argument out with students and new pilots at the field a few times a year http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I wonder why with so few responses the conveyor argument got so heated - the issue is the same really - flight is dependent upon the relative wind the a/c is encountering and not its relationship to the ground.

rnzoli
02-18-2006, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder why with so few responses the </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Beacuse the naysayers haven't appeared yet!

So let me start the madness. Of course,the answer is "true". When you make a rapid turn, you bleed energy and your airspeed will decrease, increasing the risk of stall.

(Of course, the same is valid for opposite direction. i.e., when doing a rapid turn into upwind direction. )

TX-EcoDragon
02-18-2006, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder why with so few responses the </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Beacuse the naysayers haven't appeared yet!

So let me start the madness. Of course,the answer is "true". When you make a rapid turn, you bleed energy and your airspeed will decrease, increasing the risk of stall.

(Of course, the same is valid for opposite direction. i.e., when doing a rapid turn into upwind direction. ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO NO NO!!! That's not why it's true! It's true because the ground slows down under you, and if you are only 10 knots above stall speed then the ground better not slow down by ten knots or you'll stop flying as soon as your wheels see the ground slow down!

I know this to be fact, in fact once I was on a southern climbout and flying near highway 101 and made the mistake of flying over the southbound lanes of traffic. . .well, there was a lot of traffic and my plane got confused and thought it's ground-speed dropped to like 15 knots, so it stalled. . .GAH. . I hate that!

p-11.cAce
02-18-2006, 06:03 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gifThe reason this came up is that a few weeks ago I was flying (sailplanes) with a relativly new pilot and we were turning in a nice fat thermal. I noticed that every 180deg of turn he would drop the nose and pick up 10knots or so then after passing through another 180 deg of turn he would pick the nose up and slow to best l/d. This went on for a few turns and I asked him why he was doing that - "Oh - the wind is out of 3-5-0 and I don't want us to stall when it gets behind us" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Uhhh..well ok son. To be honest I was quietly pleased he even remembered what the wind direction was when we took off & I hardly had the heart to point out that now, 4grand up, we were drifting with a thermal that was moving with a wind from 2-0-0 or so.... I'll be sure and not have him fly us over any opposite direction traffic anytime soon! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Akronnick
02-18-2006, 06:52 PM
Here we go again,

danjama
02-18-2006, 09:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder why with so few responses the </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Beacuse the naysayers haven't appeared yet!

So let me start the madness. Of course,the answer is "true". When you make a rapid turn, you bleed energy and your airspeed will decrease, increasing the risk of stall.

(Of course, the same is valid for opposite direction. i.e., when doing a rapid turn into upwind direction. ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO NO NO!!! That's not why it's true! It's true because the ground slows down under you, and if you are only 10 knots above stall speed then the ground better not slow down by ten knots or you'll stop flying as soon as your wheels see the ground slow down!

I know this to be fact, in fact once I was on a southern climbout and flying near highway 101 and made the mistake of flying over the southbound lanes of traffic. . .well, there was a lot of traffic and my plane got confused and thought it's ground-speed dropped to like 15 knots, so it stalled. . .GAH. . I hate that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M2morris
02-18-2006, 09:57 PM
I hate it when my treadmill is flying just fine and it gets confused and goes into a spin. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifBut anyway, I have been recently reading this stuff about airplanes on treadmills, and I was afraid to comment for it does not deserve one. BUT. I cant resist it, so here is my opinion on this ducking-reficulous topic: A wing cannot produce lift unless it is in forward motion. A treadmill is stationary. There may be SOME lift provided by the propeller thrust, but not enough. Thnx.

arjisme
02-18-2006, 10:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
I hate it when my treadmill is flying just fine and it gets confused and goes into a spin. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifBut anyway, I have been recently reading this stuff about airplanes on treadmills, and I was afraid to comment for it does not deserve one. BUT. I cant resist it, so here is my opinion on this ducking-reficulous topic: A wing cannot produce lift unless it is in forward motion. A treadmill is stationary. There may be SOME lift provided by the propeller thrust, but not enough. Thnx. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! Dude, this isn't the treadmill thread. If you want to post your theories on that, you should do that it in KrashanTopolova's not yet locked new thread. If you do, maybe someone will take you serious enough to explain why you are wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M2morris
02-18-2006, 10:23 PM
ya, thanks man, for pointing me in the right direction. But I don't think I'll mess with that topic anymore, it has tired me. Whew.

rnzoli
02-19-2006, 12:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
and my plane got confused and thought it's ground-speed dropped to like 15 knots </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have been flying an Airbus, haven't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The plane that "thinks" and has an opinion on what it should do next http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Akronnick
02-19-2006, 12:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
and my plane got confused and thought it's ground-speed dropped to like 15 knots </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have been flying an Airbus, haven't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The plane that "thinks" and has an opinion on what it should do next http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has been around for a while, but airliners in the future will have a crew of two: one pilot and a dog.
The pilot's job is to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

KrashanTopolova
02-20-2006, 11:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimDG:
False. All that matters is a/c speed relative to the air. Thats one and the same in a turn, regardless of how the air is moving wrt the ground. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

______________________________________________
All that matters is that the aircraft is accelerating in a turn (simply by change of direction)...

speed (airspeed/groundspeed) is a scalar quantity...velocity (speed plus direction) and acceleration (change in velocity) are vector quantities...

So the aircraft does not stall from wind effects
______________________________________________

p-11.cAce
02-21-2006, 05:18 AM
Krashan did you get an engineering thesauraus for christmas?

KrashanTopolova
02-22-2006, 04:26 PM
no, i got a conveyor belt that delivers goodies to me at my computer without me having to get up...none of them have taken off from the conveyor belt yet...or even slipped off.

Z4K
02-22-2006, 10:47 PM
Precisely how does being a scalar or vector (or even tensor) quantity affect stall characteristics of an aircraft?

And "wind effects" can cause an aircraft to stall - gusts can stall planes.

KrashanTopolova
02-22-2006, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Z4K:
Precisely how does being a scalar or vector (or even tensor) quantity affect stall characteristics of an aircraft?

And "wind effects" can cause an aircraft to stall - gusts can stall planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
_____________________________________________
i'm not here to teach; just provoke thinking... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

A scalar quantity has one dimension.
A vector has more than one dimension...therefore it can act in any direction...vis a vis when you apply the brakes to a car for example it has acceleration in the opposite direction to which it was existing before the brakes were applied... same for a number of roces acting on an object that produces a resultant force accelerating the object in another direction in three-dimensional space.

You are correct in so far as wind effects can cause turbulence which is the necessary ingredient for creating stall of an airfoil...but in this case the (engineless) aircraft has not lost acceleration or lift (no matter what the direction as a vector) in turning (if controlled properly) even if it may lose airspeed (a scalar). Therefore in this case wind effects play no part in creating critical turbulence.
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

DaimonSyrius
02-22-2006, 11:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrashanTopolova:
i'm not here to teach; just provoke thinking... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
...and fun; more fun than thinking, actually, but that's just fair enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Cheers,
S.

Z4K
02-23-2006, 12:01 AM
You know, DaimonSyrius, I don't think he's fishing. Look at these (all linked):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrashanTopolova: (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/5101045793/r/5631055793#5631055793)

... However, laws of physics may apply (eg impact produces temporary forward momentum of equal and opposite reaction - then force backwards)...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrashanTopolova: (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7331051993/r/6321042104#6321042104)

...The aerodynamic fact is that an aircraft naturally loses airspeed (not necessarily ground speed) in a turn and also loses lift (which is compensated for by nose up). Perhaps then, the FW *appears* to lose speed in a turn where the pilot has not increased throttle to compensate thrust in the turn...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrashanTopolova: (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/5081034593/r/8751094793#8751094793)

...When you reduce prop pitch under a speeding engine you should hear the engine change because the prop thrust is out of synch with the new engine RPM...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KrashanTopolova: (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/2261085593/r/4651073693#4651073693)

...presuming here that flight conditions regarding lift over cold surfaces are modelled correctly in PF...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>



edit: Credit where credit's due though. He appears to be one of the very few on this forum who can spell "lose" (ie. the present tense of lost). That makes up for a lot, in my book. People who are loose with spelling irritate me.

Lucius_Esox
02-23-2006, 06:11 AM
I know squat about aerodynamics,, apart from this, dont wings need air moving over them to create lift ??? lol.

A situation where this is decreased is more likely to cause a stall isn't it??

To show my ignorance even further. What would happen to a plane flying at say a 100 knts if all of a sudden it had a 110 knt tail wind appear??

This is applicable to the question asked isn't it ??

Heho..

arjisme
02-23-2006, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Krashan did you get an engineering thesauraus for christmas? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! That is so funny! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p-11.cAce
02-23-2006, 07:30 AM
Yeah Z4K I agree - I'm torn on the whole fishing/non-fishing thing...I sure like these threads more than the "under/over modeled" threads. Lucius you are correct that suddenly picking up a strong tailwind can and does cause stalls - this is often a contributing factor in the "micro-burst" crashes. The trick to understanding the whole "downwind turn" myth is that there is no "downwind" or "upwind" that the aircraft "feels" - downwind and upwind are relation in orientation to an observer on the ground not an airplane in the sky. An airplanes manuvers are made relative to the air around it, so airspeed remains constant regardless of how the air is moving in relation to the ground. What is deceptive is the change in groundspeed and the reactions that some pilot have to that change. If you are flying at 100 knots (indicated airspeed *lets leave it at that and not get into IAS/TAS discussions to keep this simple) into a 20 knot wind which is 180deg opposite your flight path your groundspeed will be 80knots. Simple enough. Now if you make a 180 degree turn (assuming an ideal turn in which all other forces remain equal and only heading chages) your airspeed still indicates 100 knots but your groundspeed will increase to 120 knots. Some pilots (mostly low-time) who see this 40 knot change in groundspeed (which can be quite startling at low altitude sometimes) will raise the nose of the airplane in an attempt to "slow down" the airplane (whose airspeed had not changed) and inadvertantly stall - thus creating the myth. I've inadvertantly got myself in these situations while thermaling at low level in my sailplane - I'll be zipping along with my "eyes out", hit some lift and pull up to slow down and turn into the thermal when my wing suddenly starts to drop and I realize how quiet it has suddenly become http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif "dumbdumbdumb" slam fwd the stick and pick up the dropping wing with the rudder (NEVER THE AILERONS!) and remember to pull the cushion out of my *** when I get on the ground. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

rnzoli
02-23-2006, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
slam fwd the stick and pick up the dropping wing with the rudder (NEVER THE AILERONS!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do I correctly understand, that this is because the aileron deflection would further increase the angle of attack of the already stalling wing?

p-11.cAce
02-23-2006, 11:07 AM
EXACTLY - and is true in all aircraft but is very important in sailplanes. Its fun (at a safe altitude of course) to have a student - or worse a low time pilot - in the front seat and have them slow to critical airspeed and ask for a few gentle turns. Sure enough they will get a little slow and a wing will start to drop off so what does instinct tell you? Well just push the stick the other way to pick up the wing right? So the stick goes over, the wing that was dropping just falls away (usually accompanied by a gasp from the front seat) and away into a spin we go! The best part is you can do this a few times before it sinks in that the rudder is actually a pretty powerful roll control (being just a big flap on a short span wide chord wing mounted 90deg to the main wings). This is modelled - to a point - in game also: if you get slow pick up your wings with the rudder and keep the stick in the middle.

Lucius_Esox
02-23-2006, 11:43 AM
Ok I got it now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Another question while I'm on a role here.

You know when your flying in your standard passenger aircraft (757 etc) and the pilot says there is turbulent air ahead.. and all of a sudden it feels like your stomach and brains have changed place,, what is happening here?

Is this a loss of lift?

Fascinated by all this stuff http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p-11.cAce
02-23-2006, 12:28 PM
Not loss of lift - just variations in the airmass the aircraft is passing through: think being on a boat and hitting ripples and waves- the boat has not lost any flotation ability it is just reacting to the medium on which it travels. To keep up the boat analogy how an aircraft reacts to turbulence varies greatly with speed - just as hitting small waves in a canoe is a far different experience than hitting them in a ski boat! Generally speaking the lower atmosphere is filled with alot of trash air due to thermal activity, ground-related turbulence (which can extend quite high at times) and wind gradiants. High altitude turbulence is usually caused by the interface of the air surrounding the jet stream - often referred to a CAT or clear air turbulence. All certified aircraft are built to very high standards and there is little cause for concern in regard to turbulence while in an airliner. People have been and are injured yearly by being unseated or not buckled in when the aircraft encounters clear air turbulence - I fly commercial flights pretty regularly and I keep my belt on (though losened) always when I am in my seat. Though it may feel like the plane is falling in reality turbulence generally only causes minor variations in the flight path - 10's of feet or less.

rnzoli
02-23-2006, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
This is modelled - to a point - in game also: if you get slow pick up your wings with the rudder and keep the stick in the middle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I felt the same way. It came as a bit of surprise, since I didn't think that asymetric stalls were modelled. But kicking the opposite rudder helps much more than opposite aileron.

rnzoli
02-23-2006, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Though it may feel like the plane is falling in reality turbulence generally only causes minor variations in the flight path - 10's of feet or less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The worst feeling when the plane is climbing steeply due to noise abatement procedures, and levels off at a certain altitude. Feels like free-falling, but in fact the plane is still climbing a little.

Lucius_Esox
02-23-2006, 01:43 PM
Cool.. Interesting stuff. I suppose it feels like you have dropped about 500ft because you are going so fast.

Still feels like I've swapped ends http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
02-23-2006, 02:08 PM
I have no problem with stomach, but I hate the feeling of "falling", it makes me really scared. I usually grab the seat and keep my air inside my lung for long during these 'incidents'.

Once however, I was on a flight that went through a mild thunderstorm after takeoff. I was with my wife, who hates even the elevators, imagine how she hates airplanes. I was getting scared, because from the aft section, we could literally see the nose moving downward before feeling like hitting the roof... then back to our seet with 1.5G .. nose falling over again... and we move towards the ceiling... People started to moan and meekly cry around us, and I looked at my wife, afraid of how she will bear the rollercoaster ride. To my surprize, she was rather annoyed about it, but nothing serious. The plane slowed down a bit (engines revved down) and soon we left the clouds. Phew. Anyhow, after landing she told me that we will always have to come by car http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Akronnick
02-23-2006, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Cool.. Interesting stuff. I suppose it feels like you have dropped about 500ft because you are going so fast.

Still feels like I've swapped ends http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One time when I was a kid I was riding in the back of my uncle's C172 while my little bother was flying right seat. He was only about ten then so he had a little trouble seeing over the nose. My uncle told him to steer towards a landmark ahead, but we were climbing slightly so my brother couldn't see it. My Uncle pushed the nose down for just a second so he could see, but didn't warn me and my other brother in the back seat! We thought we were going go right through the roof, literally!

All of these incidents reveal how deceptive our perception can be in judging how our plane is flying.

As long as you are climbing/descending at a constant rate, an occupant of the plane will feel 1g, whether your climbing 1000ft/min or descending at 3000ft/min.

imagine what could happen if a pilot who is not proficient at instrument flight flies into a cloud and loses his visual reference. The point is, you always have to use your instruments over what you feel.

p-11.cAce
02-23-2006, 04:48 PM
Usually if you read through accident reports there are many that say something like "VFR only pilot flew into IMC....witnesses saw plane 'spinning' as it exited the clouds and broke apart". The many illusions of flight can get you introuble in a hurry. That falling sensation when you level off you mentioned - classic one for accidents: You take off into the **** and climb to altitude. You reach the required altitude and push to level off. Your inner ear starts screaming "we are descending" but the art. horizon shows level. OMG maybe the instrument is wrong - I'll pull up just a bit. (the pilot still in the clouds and now questioning his instruments does not notice that he is entering a shallow turn as his coordination drifts) what? oh man the artificial horizon IS acting up - I "feel" level but it is showing a turn! Now my airspeed is increasing (as the nose drops in the turn) I better pull up to slow this thing down! (as the plane wraps into a tighter spiraling turn - now the *** hits the fan as the airspeed rapidly increases, the wind noise switches to a scream, the artificial horizon rolls over, the engine rpm rockets up, the altimeter rapidly unwinds) *****! I gotta get the nose up and slow down! (so our boy yanks back with all his might - either snapping off into an accelerated stall/spin or ripping the wings off or both). Happens all the time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Akronnick
02-23-2006, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Usually if you read through accident reports there are many that say something like "VFR only pilot flew into IMC....witnesses saw plane 'spinning' as it exited the clouds and broke apart". The many illusions of flight can get you introuble in a hurry. That falling sensation when you level off you mentioned - classic one for accidents: You take off into the **** and climb to altitude. You reach the required altitude and push to level off. Your inner ear starts screaming "we are descending" but the art. horizon shows level. OMG maybe the instrument is wrong - I'll pull up just a bit. (the pilot still in the clouds and now questioning his instruments does not notice that he is entering a shallow turn as his coordination drifts) what? oh man the artificial horizon IS acting up - I "feel" level but it is showing a turn! Now my airspeed is increasing (as the nose drops in the turn) I better pull up to slow this thing down! (as the plane wraps into a tighter spiraling turn - now the *** hits the fan as the airspeed rapidly increases, the wind noise switches to a scream, the artificial horizon rolls over, the engine rpm rockets up, the altimeter rapidly unwinds) *****! I gotta get the nose up and slow down! (so our boy yanks back with all his might - either snapping off into an accelerated stall/spin or ripping the wings off or both). Happens all the time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what happened to JFK Jr., although I believe he actually had his IFR rating, he had very little IFR time and got in over his head.

TX-EcoDragon
02-23-2006, 10:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
This is modelled - to a point - in game also: if you get slow pick up your wings with the rudder and keep the stick in the middle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I felt the same way. It came as a bit of surprise, since I didn't think that asymetric stalls were modelled. But kicking the opposite rudder helps much more than opposite aileron. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The impact of aileron on angle of attack near critical angle was implemented in 4.03

rnzoli
02-24-2006, 02:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
The impact of aileron on angle of attack near critical angle was implemented in 4.03 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you, I didn't know that.

rnzoli
02-24-2006, 02:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Akronnick:
That's what happened to JFK Jr., although I believe he actually had his IFR rating, he had very little IFR time and got in over his head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In his case, it was not a cloud, but flying VFR over a large body of water, with very hazy conditions. He lost visual clues and started the first spin. Miraculosly, he was able to recover from the first one and level off. But soon entered the second one, and spiraled into the ocean.

Another typical situation for this accident, when the vacuum pump of the artificial horizon fails in IMC.

By the way, this is of course not modelled in IL2 - it cannot "cheat" our inner ears. But the artificial horizon is very useful anyhow, when doing some cloud-dancing (escaping from a faster and better manouvering opponent). Especially at low clouds, when there's not enough altitude between the ground/ocean and the cloud base for dive recovery.

Lucius_Esox
02-24-2006, 03:49 AM
It is interesting the way we use what we have available to us and become dependent on it. I nearly always use aircraft online that have an artificial horizon.

Dogfighting in clouds it's use has become second nature. When I get in an aircraft that hasn't got one I am totally lost. Not just knowing which is way is up but my overall SA goes to pot as well.

I can only imagine what it must feel like to be in a situation where your "real" life depends on it,,,,,,, panic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif