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View Full Version : P-38... is it just me?



alitomdq
01-10-2005, 03:33 PM
Well, i´m a big P-38 fan, I really love (loved?) that plane, and waited for him a long time. But now, I rarely fly it. Maybe because I do not have too much time to use My PC and fly on line, and consecuently, cannot find the best way to exploit its capacities. Anyway, I know that the P-38 its an a/c to fly with medium or high speed, its an a/c to fly with altitude, then its an a/c to B&Z, I guess. But whenever you go into a dive, What do you get?... COMPRESSIBILITY... Then BRAKES out (or flaps)...and finally, bye-bye any speed advantage. And that would be a dangerous situation against german a/c, or japanese Ki´s.
So... Does anyone fly this bird most of the time (like 109ners, for example, I mean people that only fly the fritz or the gustav)? In that case, how do you get the most from the P-38? Considering that this a/c had the highest kill ratio in the pacific, and (except for its altitude temperature engine problems in europe) had a very good performance in the Western front, I think that there must be a way to fly on it and avoid to finish toasted just minutes later.
Well, any serious suggestions accepted. Of course (please) not commentaries like... "do not fly it", "that plane is a ****", and funny things like that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
S!!

geetarman
01-10-2005, 03:36 PM
Fortunately or unfortunately, there are alot of threads strated about the "problems" with the P-38. Some say it's fine, more think there are definate concerns. Odds are, not much will get changed on it. I used to fly it alot. Not much now.

tsisqua
01-10-2005, 04:14 PM
Here's the skinny:

Compressibility happens sooner than in the RL bird. Therefore, you need to use that airbrake at the LATEST POSSIBLE MOMENT. And AS SELDOM AS POSSIBLE!

It's very possible to enjoy this bird, and to fly it successfuly in combat. Its the 1rst simulated P-38 that I am aware of with such complicated engine management.

If you want to fly her, you have to be willing to forgive her a bit. She's a naughty girl. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Tsisqua

WUAF_Badsight
01-10-2005, 05:01 PM
some forum members have said its running at a too low boost level in FB

this is true ?

tsisqua
01-10-2005, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
some forum members have said its running at a too low boost level in FB

this is true ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I am not even sure what the numbers are on the airspeed that I should be able to achieve, but a 109 will catch you if you try to extend too far. Still, its possible to get turned around on him for a couple of passes before its too late, if you know what I mean. If you don't get a good shot on the first couple of turns, you are going to die, that's just how it is in the game, and I have just learned to enjoy the challenge.


Tsisqua

WTE_Galway
01-10-2005, 09:02 PM
its still one of the better bomber killers around

Martyr_JG88
01-10-2005, 09:50 PM
I find the bird to be a great fly. Love the cockpit, weapons are weak compared to some others but he... Just like most planes that aren't great climbers, you've got to get that speed up on your zoom climb and have a wingman, buy one off if you have too.

tigertalon
01-11-2005, 03:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martyr_JG88:
I find the bird to be a great fly. Love the cockpit, weapons are weak compared to some others but he... Just like most planes that aren't great climbers, you've got to get that speed up on your zoom climb and have a wingman, buy one off if you have too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the features that I like most with P38 is it's speed and firepower. Ok, I agree that firepower is not like on late Bf109s but anyway, compared with other American planes I really like firepower concentrated in the nose. It is easyer to aim this way. You waste less ammo per kill. And 4 .50 (500 bullets each if I am correct) and a hispano railgun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif packed together in a nose is a considerable punch for any bomber, let alone fighter! And, yes, like German Fw190, P38 is a team player. 1v1 is bad 2v2 is better 4v4 it is favorable.

F19_Ob
01-11-2005, 03:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
Still, its possible to get turned around on him for a couple of passes before its too late, if you know what I mean. If you don't get a good shot on the first couple of turns, you are going to die, that's just how it is in the game, and I have just learned to enjoy the challenge.

Tsisqua <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I very much respect your opinions Tsisqua (past and present) but I cant agree with u on this one(although I tried).

Personally I cant see how anyone can outturn a 109 in a p38, not even one turn, because even with the dive brakes and flaps the turn in the p38 just dont beat the moves I do in the 109.
I have ofcourse been able to throw a 109 off aim repeatedly but that is because I have understood that the opponent was unexperienced since he fell for the same trick several times. I have also made turns away when the 109 has 'chosen' to keep his energy.
I have tried to get maximum from the p38 in turn and climb but cant do the things I do in the 109. The 109's best turn in high speed is better aswell as in slow speed.
In p38 I can turn around with enough separation or in cloudfights but still dont see how it can be done in the open and absolutely not against an experienced 109.
With altitude and speed advantage its another matter as when flying against earlier 109 with only 20mm cannon wich enables the p38 to take a few hits.
The few times I still fly the 109 I usually leave the p38's alone since I know they are only a marginal threat( I'm not even expert on the 109's anymore).
Il2's or p47's are more dangerous in many ways, perhaps mainly armament and rollrate and the more stable gun platform. The il2 hasnt the energy of the p38 but still has sufficent turn and much better guns.
I dont mean the p38 is toothless but it has trouble aiming and keeping its guns on target as well as the two above.
A p38 on tail isnt too hard to shake off, but an il-2 is an acute danger and one has to see to it that u really get out of its envelope fast.

Many times I have chased p38's without firing when I have done my tests online. Perhaps several were rookies but they couldnt shake me off anyway.
The times I have shot down 109's flying the p38 I have always had a better initial angle and knowing how the 109's probably would respond and thus been able to win.

The two best features in the p38 is the good climb and relative high speed.
The climb have enabled me to climb straight up into clouds from ground level whith a 109 on tail (but with enough separation) and when the 109's have fired after me I have slowly barrelrolled in the climb and caused them to miss. Not many allied planes can do this.
The 109 does it better though.
The high speed enables me to keep separation for a while, but an experienced 109 knows he can catch me for sure.

So I cant see a single maneuver that the 109 doesnt do better, and even the armament is better (30mm cannon).
-------------------------------

Against Zeros and other japanese planes (exept ki84) the p38 can be a real danger with BnZ tactics since it can escape by speeding away.

The p38 and fw190 are closer in turnrate but a fw190 can more easily get out of a chase situation because of its rollrate.
Battles between these two can be pretty interesting.



I also enjoy the p38 but against 109's I see no other thing than cloudbattles or flying in pairs or a group.

Well...my opinion. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JG5_UnKle
01-11-2005, 05:25 AM
F19_Ob
I don't think he meant out-turn as such. What I think he meant is that if you extend away from a 109 and then turn back you can only do it a couple of times before you are Co-E and extending away is not feasible.

I think that's what he meant anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

geetarman
01-11-2005, 11:54 AM
Well, a couple of patches ago, the P-38 could turnfight, in a general sense, the following 109's:

109G6-14 and 109K (easily). It could not out-turn an F or G2. I know this because I flew the plane exclusively until a few months ago. Everynight, OL, I would go up against late 109's. Most times you could out-turn the G6 with combat flaps and judicious throttle use.
You could always, and I mean always, win a classic FB turn fight with a G-10,14 or K4.

Now, almost all of the 109's easily out turn the 38. Why? I don't know, but something changed!

Xnomad
01-11-2005, 04:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
You know, I am not even sure what the numbers are on the airspeed that I should be able to achieve, but a 109 will catch you if you try to extend too far. Still, its possible to get turned around on him for a couple of passes before its too late, if you know what I mean. If you don't get a good shot on the first couple of turns, you are going to die, that's just how it is in the game, and I have just learned to enjoy the challenge.


Tsisqua <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I back Tsisqua up on this one from my experience he is correct if you manage to get a shot in on the first few turns you should be ok. However, for the extending part I don't agree with him, in a 'J' version you should be able to maintain seperation as the Bf 109 will overheat quicker and will have to throttle back.

tsisqua
01-11-2005, 06:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
F19_Ob
I don't think he meant out-turn as such. What I think he meant is that if you extend away from a 109 and then turn back you can only do it a couple of times before you are Co-E and extending away is not feasible.

I think that's what he meant anyway http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh, the joys of returning to work! I miss the forum, though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Yes, that's exactly what I meant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xnomad, most of the 109 pilots on HL will just run her right into hades in flames to get that kill. Don't get me wrong, I die way more than I kill. But if you get that one shot that can affect the perfomance of the 109 (yes, I know how slim the odds are http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif), then its possible to gain the advantage. . . . or like me, just die trying. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tsisqua

|CoB|_Spectre
01-11-2005, 06:49 PM
I'm no great pilot, but I have had decent experience at out-turning some models of 109s with the J-model P-38. I build co-ops and try to keep the aircraft in the same time period, so we're probably talking 109G6 models vs the P-38J. What works for me is to get the speed down into the 250-260 km/hr range and drop combat flaps. I've even been able to drop takeoff flaps without them jamming in this speed range. It might be important to note this has been in online co-ops. Anyway, I have managed to come out on top in a pure turning fight on numerous occasions with this technique. The L-model is even easier with judicious application of dive flaps and combat flaps. Just be sure to retract dive flaps at the first sign of stall or they'll lead you down the path of sorrow. I've always looked at flaps as a way to delay the onset of stall and that gives me just one more tool to keep my aircraft in the air, hoping to gain advantage on the "bad guy" before he gets the better of me. One thing I have problems trying to duplicate is the Tommy McGuire axiom of keeping the speed above 300 mph. The 38's modeling bleeds speed so rapidly and does not seem to match the acceleration rates in shallow climbs that were reported by RL pilots. I find it a not-to-easy job of pulling away from the various models of Zeros even after they've come off a hard turn. But, like I said, I'm no great pilot.

WTE_Galway
01-11-2005, 07:07 PM
do bear in mind that in RL optimum turning in a P39 involved asymmetric flight .. firewalling the outside engine and throttling back the inner one made the turn a lot tighter

am fairly certian you cannot reproduce that effect in FB/PF

WUAF_Badsight
01-11-2005, 09:29 PM
not without some serious button management anyways

& in one turn , the P-38 is totally capable of getting its nose pulled tighter than a Bf109

that dive brake is usefull as . 9 out of 10 P-38s aint flowen right anyways , so its easy to think its a easy kill plane

LeadSpitter_
01-11-2005, 09:35 PM
problem is it cannot take more then one hit. So much for twin engine reliability. Even 2-3 hits of 20mm will tear its wingtip off or its tailbooms with one burst placed on the booms or wingtip.

But the p38s cannon will just hit a 190 and 109 around with 3-5 cannon only hits and just seem to flop them around in the air. The .50 cal seems to smoke 109 engines fine and what clips the cables.

But 190s take massive hits from both cannon and .50 whole plane intact but usually clipped cables etc.

Also it is so easy to score 108 cannon hits on small evading fighters which were even difficult to hit a level large bomber in rl like a b24 or b17. 108 cannon was not designed as a dogfighting weapon but then again the two 7.62 mm was capible of getting kills with in a single pass, more accurate at distance etc.

I flew the 38 almost yesterday about 6 hours straight in wc yesterday sometimes you die in 10 minutes and get death kicked other times you score 1100 in a hour or more.

I was trying to practice bnzing in the p38l from 9000m to 5000m using taps of the dive brakes to line up the pass which works but is very difficult.

But as for difficulty of surviving and getting air to air kills goes its one of the hardest planes in game to do well in even with lots of wingmen because of its zero like damage model.

Every version I like flying the worst modeled most difficult plane in game makes the others seem like airquake planes, and once you do very well in the worst plane it makes you almost unstoppable in the others

the 190 109 vs a group of p38s is similiar to the p38 vs early zeros but without the lower speed turn advantage or lack of E bleed you can run from them at any time you choose, kill in a 1 sec burst everytime, but with 190s and 109s you can out manuever them high speed becuase of the wrong compressibility of p38 which did not happen high speed low alt, it happened only 20,000 feet and above in power dive air was thinner and the front wing blocked the thinner airflow high speeds high alt not freezing it up but making the yoke mushed and elevators not responding from yoke movement.

The main problem is its very difficult to kill in one pass with the p38 even when scoring multiple cannon only hits which just flop the enemy ac around and they still can fight after one pass.


while the p38 extremely outmatched the zekes all it takes is a 1 sec burst to kill one the 109 or 190 have the same advantage over the p38 to get a kill climb less ebleed dive advantage high speed manueverablity advantage low speed turn advantage etc. So not one advantage of the p38s is here especially vs the 190a8 and 109g6.

You can do well in warclouds with ground attack getting 1000pts a run if you survive. People still always fall for the 3.2 sec delay on 1000lbers when on your six and you dive to the deck.

Badsight is very good in the p38 and the best i have seen is afj=locust as for the p38 turning tighter then a 109 is hooplahhh.

only time it can out turn a 109 is if the 109 is bnzing high speed 600-900 and the p38 is lower speed and can evade the bnz slightly by hitting combat flaps and dive brake. But the 109 can just trottle back and hit combat flaps but will loose all its E which they always do in wc

Its definatly the worst ac in game in gunstrenght and damage model which takes 1 hit bf110 is currently a better dogfighter with 50 fuel and 20mm loadout.

but with the bf110 if you have 2 500kg bomber or 108 cannon it seems to drastically turn the bf110 into a brick same with p38 gunpods or rocket trees.

4 kills with front gun 2-3 with ai tail gunner almost everytime and take alot of hits rtb damaged. Its rare to see a bf110 killed in a single pass or he111 but a p38 is dead one pass everytime.

Its rare to see a damaged p38 return to base in warclouds from enemy fire they are dead in 1 hit and in pieces.

SKIDRO_79FS
01-12-2005, 01:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
problem is it cannot take more then one hit. So much for twin engine reliability. Even 2-3 hits of 20mm will tear its wingtip off or its tailbooms with one burst placed on the booms or wingtip. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So much for realism there, Jack Ilfrey brought a P-38F home with over 260 holes in it and one boom barely hanging on. He also brought home a P-38J with 4 feet of it's wingtip shredded from a collision with a Me-109.

There are numerous accounts of Lightnings returning minus major parts, Col. Harold Rau brought back a J model with the entire horizontal tail surface torn to bits and mostly missing, for instance.

Capt. Ernest Fiebelkorn actually manhandled one out of a compression dive but the resulting damage to the airframe (numerous areas of skin stretched beyond any resemblance of their original shape, cracked glass and tail booms bent upward at an angle...)

There are also several stories of Lightnings coming back after colliding with trees, phone poles and even the main mast of a German destroyer...

tsisqua
01-12-2005, 01:22 PM
Yep, Skid, the P-38 models are indeed much more destroyable than their RL counterparts.

But, like I said before, its the way she is in the game, and I am enjoying the daylights out of her anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tsisqua

HellToupee
01-12-2005, 01:38 PM
p38s weak? Try using a mk108 on them, yesterday i watched a 109 empty his 30mm on one with many hits and it just smoked then i took about 4 hits to take him down.

LeadSpitter_
01-12-2005, 01:44 PM
I do many many times helltoupee 1 sec burst and falling in pieces no p38. I fly german alot you know.

Same with 20mm on hit to the wingtip or tailbooms its in pieces. Maybe you have a very very high ping in a server across the globe from you.

I notice when i fly Grennadich server some of the over seas servers where i ping 130-200 i experience the same thing you witness shots on my screen that are hits do not count and are not hitting when you look at the ntrack. So that is what your experiencing if you think a 109 can empty 30mm out on a p38. It just take 1 hit. Same for p47 mustang spit etc.

Look at the people who complain online in warclouds 108 cannon is weak 20mm is weak they are all pinging 250-400ms

F19_Ob
01-13-2005, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
So that is what your experiencing if you think a 109 can empty 30mm out on a p38. It just take 1 hit. Same for p47 mustang spit etc.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

U are absolutely right about the one hit thing.
I have done plenty of missions online where my objective has been to see how many 30mm hits I can take in a p38, p47, p51, spit, il-2 and several other planes.
For most of these planes I have been unable to fly anymore after a hit,.
sometimes the plane has minor damage outside but inside the controlls are out and u cant maneuver.
the il2 is the only one who can manage couple of hits if they dont hit vital parts.
About half of the times I land with an il2 my controlls are out and i manage to land by trimming and using flaps , if they work.


I have not thought about the ping thing so much but now when u mention it I have seen tracks depicting this ,I think.

F19_Ob
01-13-2005, 03:39 AM
Sorry Tsisqua...I misunderstood.

HellToupee
01-13-2005, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I do many many times helltoupee 1 sec burst and falling in pieces no p38. I fly german alot you know.

Same with 20mm on hit to the wingtip or tailbooms its in pieces. Maybe you have a very very high ping in a server across the globe from you.

I notice when i fly Grennadich server some of the over seas servers where i ping 130-200 i experience the same thing you witness shots on my screen that are hits do not count and are not hitting when you look at the ntrack. So that is what your experiencing if you think a 109 can empty 30mm out on a p38. It just take 1 hit. Same for p47 mustang spit etc.

Look at the people who complain online in warclouds 108 cannon is weak 20mm is weak they are all pinging 250-400ms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

o they were hitting, he had signs of visable damage after hits, i was having spitfires go down in single hits.