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TOcarroll
02-05-2004, 01:38 AM
What's the best way for a newbiie (who can fly fairly well) to learn gunnery? I usually survive the scenarios, but I can never hit anything. At present I have all the difficulty steps checked except I have Icons, and external views, and labels on the map. I have gotten lucky once or twice and hit an enemy plane, but my fuel/kills ratio is awful. Help! I don't want to be grounded. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

TOcarroll
02-05-2004, 01:38 AM
What's the best way for a newbiie (who can fly fairly well) to learn gunnery? I usually survive the scenarios, but I can never hit anything. At present I have all the difficulty steps checked except I have Icons, and external views, and labels on the map. I have gotten lucky once or twice and hit an enemy plane, but my fuel/kills ratio is awful. Help! I don't want to be grounded. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

biggs222
02-05-2004, 01:49 AM
this one helped me a bit back in the day, make a QMB get behind ur enemy slow down the time to 1/4 and zoom in using the delete key, or whatever u have it maped as...practice leading the plane and see where the bullets drop, as u do this ull see where u need to place the cross hair before firing. and try using a plane that fires smoking tracers so u can see better. .50cal is hard to see sometimes.
its better to over shoot the enemy then under, u can just drop back a bit if u over shoot but if ur undershootign u need to turn harder and thus lose speed.
oh yeah and most important is CONVERGENCE...try something like 250 or 300ms

Bansai Potato
02-05-2004, 02:02 AM
1/4 time speed

Dont do it, i done that when i first got IL2 and it was so easy to shoot things down and survive a mission that it was very hard not to do it anymore, you'll start an addictive and bad habit.

To practive gunnery why dont you load up the QMB with friendly aircraft only, a few Blenheims or something, and practice shooting them down from all positions. When you can hit them then load up some enemy aircraft but be sure to set their armament to empty so they have no bullets, they will try to evade but cannot shoot back, perfect target practice. Try recording a few QMBs then watching the playback.

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HansKnappstick
02-05-2004, 02:08 AM
Doch doch...
Do it, 1/4 time speed, shoot, pause, ctrl-F2, unpause, and look where the bullets go.

Maybe that's me but I am unable to see where the bullets miss the target if I am in my cocpit - I am missing the third coordinate, the depth, to judge.

And yes, it teaches you bad habbits - you slow down in _every_ mission.

But then, copy the missions to your coop folder and practice as a "single person coop" - you cannot cheat with time there! This way you will learn to aim in the real time.

biggs222
02-05-2004, 02:16 AM
agh yes its fun but i never got addicted to it, if u get addicted to it then u might as well fly unrealistic gunnery and ulimited ammo on,
1/4 time is really good for startign out.. u learn positioning of different angle attacks. as soon as u get good at 1/4 bring it back up to normal, ill tell u what its done wonders for my head-on or slightly off-head-on attacks. i can plant rounds right through the prop now.

but thats just me......ya know what they say, "To each their own."

michapma
02-05-2004, 02:20 AM
Practicing against friendly bombers (or better still, enemy bombers with their load set to Empty) is definitely the best way to get started. Once you are satisfied you can hit them at various distances and from various angles (including coming straight down at them), you can also make a QMB mission with a lot of enemy Rookie fighters, also with their weapon load set to Empty. That way you don't have to worry about getting shot down, and because of their Rookie AI level, they won't do crazy evasives.

I never bothered with 1/2 or 1/4 speed, but maybe it will help you. I'm also not the best shot! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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cd.jakevas
02-05-2004, 02:21 AM
This is what I did when I first started back in the original IL2 days: I set up a few bombers to fight against. give then an empty loadout and just practice. then slowly move up. By the time you know it, you will be knockin yaks or (insert plane of choice) out of the sky http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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MiG_PIMP
02-05-2004, 02:45 AM
Hi Tocaroll,

I've played il2/il2FB since October last year. I had the same problem like you. I could barely hit anything, not because I was a poor shot but because the AI planes (I only play offline) were flying in circles around me. I was constantly overshooting or turned outside the bandit.

The single most effective way of scoring kills is to learn how to line up for the shot. This is accomplished by good contol of your aircraft and most importantly to "read" the movement of the AI plane. You have to learn where the bandit will be in 3 seconds up to 10 seconds. Then you want to imagine a "cone" extending out 30-40 degrees from his tail fin. You are going to want to be in that cone. If you've made it, you are nicely set up for a killing shot. It's all about learning the movment patterns of the enemy ac. For exampel, don't chase his tail, but watch the fuselage, estimate his speed and decide where he will be in the next 3 to 10 seconds. That is the spot you want to fly to. Don't worry about loosing sight of him for 2-5 seconds. Soon you will learn that he will appear in your gunsight as you've made it to the "kill cone" behind his aircraft.

The rest is pure dexterity, co-ordinating joystick movement and the trigger. I gradually worked my way down from 300 meters firing distance to 50-200 meters. My gunsight is set to 180 meters, and I rarely open fire beyond that.

I've never flown with the "wonder woman" view or tried slow motion, so I can't say whethter it is effective or not. I learned it in **** pit view only, and it works for me.

Then you've got the art of deflection shooting, but that has already been covered in numerous posts here. Mastering this and calculating lead is important too, but before you're there, you need to have placed your self in a good position before firing.

Good luck, keep on training and soon you'll be scoring your first kills!

The MiG pimp

F19_Ob
02-05-2004, 03:32 AM
It is a big difference in shooting on a plane flying straight and level and a turning one.

It is also a very big difference between A slow firing bf109 and a fastfiring yak3 or ac with fastfiring machineguns = most allied.


Sometimes it can be hard to hit a straightflying ac from behind from a distance since it has so low profile, but if the same plane is in a slow turn u see more of its wings and body it can actually be easier to hit even if some lead= deflection, is required.


A good way to "start" practice deflectionshooting on hard turning targets is to aim about 2 or 3 planelenghts ahead of it in the turn if u fly bf 109 ( slow bullets )and about 1 or 2 lenghts if u fly allied with machineguns (fast bullets). If u hit also depends on the targets speed and distance and the direction it is flying.

The best way to see if u are improving is to quickrecord your sorties and watch them later.
I use to say that if your tracers go in front of the target you are getting there, and if they go behind u need alot more practice.

The whole idea with this practice is to get familiar with the situation where u draw deflection. later this will become second nature and u will draw deflection instinctively= automaticly.

One of the biggest problems in the beginning when flying with cockpit on is that u dont want to loose sight of the target and thus dont pull enough lead. Most of the times when I fly a 109 and draw deflection on a hard turning plane it dissappears below my nose, but also this will become second nature after a while and u will "feel" when to fire your guns. So actually u dont see the target when u fire . In my mind this is the hardest thing to get used to.


Oh...for the moment tracers are disabled, but hopefully fixed in the addon.

LilHorse
02-05-2004, 09:38 AM
I also would advise against slowing the time down. Perhaps this works for some but I'd think you'd get used to judging movement at that speed and you might find real time then too fast. Stick to real time and use the method setting up first friendly, then unarmed enemy bombers then advance to fighters etc. I found the gunnery to be much more difficult (realistic) in IL2 than in other flight sims I had flown. I didn't know at the beginning that you could slow things down and I just practiced with QMB with fighters. It helped that I had a lot of previous combat flight sim experiance, so I just honed my skills for IL2 from that point. Anyway, just keep at it. You'll get the hang of it.

Bearcat99
02-05-2004, 10:36 AM
Practice offline with unlimited ammo. Once you get your aim right use limited ammo so you can more accurately learn the ammo loadouts. Some people say never fly with unlimmited ammo and it can become counterproductive if you over do it, hoeever IMO in the beginning , when you are just trying to get the feel for the weapons unlimited ammo is amust. I will still set my ammo to unlimmited on occasion when practicing. Some say use friendly bombers. I say dont. Friendly bombers dont shoot back. If you are going to practice gunnery you want to do it on a target that will be trying to avoid you and shoot back at you like a real opponent would. You want to be in a situation where you will have to watch your back as well so NEVER use friendlies as target practice because it has no basis in the reality you are trying to prepare for..online or offline. I have a few QMs setup called HL practice... One for each of my favorite planes going against a mix of opponents based on what I may face in a HL DF (dogfight) server...not on a mission or COOP (read that to mean a mix of just about all the major fighters, including the one you are flying). Practce. Practice. Check out this link... http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm and then Practice.

See the Sturmovik Essentials thread stickied up top.

I also agree with LilHorse above. Dont slow down the time..if anything speed it up a notch. When I used to practice for CFS I used to put in slightly more bandits than I knew I could handle, unlimmited ammo, and speed things up a bit. I never tried it in FB. I enjoy the sim so much as it is and dont mind the learning curve. I would also suggest you fly online irf you dont already because the experience is totally different. The planes even look slightly different. I have been in icon servers where the distance reads .75m but it looks like @.30ms off line and vice versa. Dont get discouraged with your online play. I am a killer offline even with veteran & ace AI (I like to mix up the AI in missions I make...adds to the realism factor) but online I am mediocre for now. Lastly set your convergence to 150m-350m max.... see the link above to understand what convergence is all about if you dont already.

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[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Thu February 05 2004 at 09:57 AM.]

Antisub
02-07-2004, 07:13 AM
I use QMB and set up a large flight of enemy JU-87s (nine, twelve planes, something like that), and maybe a couple of escorts. The JU-87s are fighter-sized, so you don't have to recalibrate the eyeball after getting used to shooting big bombers. They also shoot back, so you learn to dodge gunner return fire. I use invunerable setting at first so they don't do damage, but I do try to dodge and learn how to manuever to counter the fire. I think unlimited ammo is the way to go at first, because you can spray ammo until you start seeing results. Otherwise, you'll be constantly restarting just to get off your few seconds of ammo load. Once you start getting kills in one or two bursts, then bump up the realism settings.

antisub

Bearcat99
02-07-2004, 02:18 PM
Exactly... unlimmited ammo in the beginning helps you to get a feel for the way the bullets behave. Of course after doing this everyday for a week you should NOT still be spraying. I also recommend that once you get a good feel for the way the bullets behave that you begin to shoot as if you had limited ammo. Short bursts...unless you KNOW you can rip the target to shreds.

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Bristolboy
02-07-2004, 02:32 PM
As a matter of interest have any of the full difficulty snobs started off like this cos noone learnt this way in real life and can they really consider themselves proper pilots if they have.
Personally I would start off with a new plane by checking the way it fires by using externals as well as flying from within cockpit. This may not be real but we have to find out for ourselves as there is not enough ingame info(re unstick speeds etc). Eg one of the Yaks the guns tend to fire upwards slightly which gives you a good view of target, others tend to yaw to the right which you can either eliminate by using trim or use to your advantage as it will work it's way across target more delicately than you could by using controls.
At the end of the day you have to get used to each aircraft individually and in some cases almost learn to fly from scratch with each model as well as different types.Don't be discouraged and remember that most pilots would have had a fairly lengthy list of characteristics to go on before flying but they would also have had to learn from each mission as well.
The first comment is a joke by the way!