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darkhorizon11
04-05-2006, 12:53 AM
Mr. Maddox what level of AI can we expect in BoB? I know you can't let the cat out of the bag yet on everything but perhaps a few hints. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif To be honest I think if you listed say the top 5 aspects that will make or break SOW:BoB this is most certainly one of them. Heres some of the major flaws with the AI we see FB...

1. Aircraft cannot make independent decisions. Specifically bombers will follow a smoking leader nearly into the ground. Instead the #2 man steps up and takes the lead spot!

2. Inability of AI to cover each other. IE all four aircraft in a squad follow an enemy aircraft in a big line, the enemy wingman then follow his leader as he is being shot at side by side the attacker's wingman with no reaction.

3. Prioritizing, not every enemy aircraft is a threat. In FB if escorting fighters see enemy aircraft just climbing out from an airfield 8000m below them they ditch the bombers and automatically attack the enemy, then lose the bomber coverage. Though the fighters had some leeway this is a little extreme.

4. AI is suicidal. Perhaps we can control the aggressiveness of the enemy. In other words in the game a novice pilot will attack a squadron of 10 aircraft without any hesitation. AI should also flee when outnumbered say more than 2:1 as well.

5. General tactics problems. Me 262 jets shouldn't enter turning combat with fighters. Biplanes shouldn't try to outrun high speed monoplane fighters.

Just some general suggestions. Even if half those problems were fixed BoB would be a hugeeee step up! Like I said the quality of AI as well the FM/DM/aircraft systems integration is going to make or break the game. Not fancy new graphics, new objects, aircraft or any random new features like triggers for FMB.

darkhorizon11
04-07-2006, 03:35 PM
No? o well lets stick with v4.05 AI forever then

SeaFireLIV
04-07-2006, 06:22 PM
I know the feeling, darkhorizon11. I`ve spoken about botched AI in 4.04 until i`m blue in the face and... nothing, no reply, nada...

Guess we shouldn`t consider ourselves worth responding too...

Amagi
04-08-2006, 06:37 AM
How about a simple AI editor for mission designers with its own interface?

Return to escort after _ seconds if not under attack or not within _m of an enemy fighter.

Squadron retreat/drop payload if outnumbered by _ fighters ( _m around leader )/ and/if _ losses / and/if in combat for _ minutes.

Maximum aircraft to make simultaneous attack on single enemy fighter _ single bomber _ bomber flight _.

Single unengaged element/flight forced to climb rather than attack when at least _ enemies above and within _m.

Forced RTB when not under attack with _% ammo expended _% damage _% fuel.

Designers had the ability to script events with triggers in CFS2, but not to script AI. An editor might also be useful if the AI pilots are getting 'characters' as well as skill.

Nimits
04-08-2006, 02:48 PM
Guess we shouldn`t consider ourselves worth responding too...

I could have told you that . . .


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BueJack
04-09-2006, 10:38 AM
I did offer my services to 'jack' up the AI, but you know... no reply!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

darkhorizon11
04-13-2006, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Amagi:
How about a simple AI editor for mission designers with its own interface?

Return to escort after _ seconds if not under attack or not within _m of an enemy fighter.

Squadron retreat/drop payload if outnumbered by _ fighters ( _m around leader )/ and/if _ losses / and/if in combat for _ minutes.

Maximum aircraft to make simultaneous attack on single enemy fighter _ single bomber _ bomber flight _.

Single unengaged element/flight forced to climb rather than attack when at least _ enemies above and within _m.

Forced RTB when not under attack with _% ammo expended _% damage _% fuel.

Designers had the ability to script events with triggers in CFS2, but not to script AI. An editor might also be useful if the AI pilots are getting 'characters' as well as skill.

This would be a start I'd trade the photorealistic graphics for better AI any day.

knightflyte
04-17-2006, 08:48 PM
Not to sound rude, because I do agree that improvements in AI are necessary for BoB to be sucessful, but what do you expect Oleg to say?

Why open the gate to the wild ubi zoo? We all can't even come to a concensous of what's wrong. Is it FM that AI aren't affected or is it AI routines that effect game quality....etc etc.

While giving the AI the ability to chose a #2 if the leader is gone is a prime concern to you (and rightly so) a DIFFERENT AI problem is more important to me.

And those might be alltogether different from someone who flies online.

I highly doubt it's a question of you or I being worthy a response. It's just any answer we get will be questioned..... analized..... derided........ etc etc. I wouldn't post anything until I had to.

I think after E3 we will start to get more information.

darkhorizon11
04-17-2006, 11:27 PM
Oleg responds to many threads about like this, often they are flight model or requests for aircraft. I posted this to ask what else others felt was wrong with AI in the sim and seeing if someone in the know would let on at least an idea of what improvements have been made. It doesn't have to be Mr.Maddox since he isn't the only programmer that posts in here.

Blood_Splat
04-18-2006, 10:08 AM
If AI ever gets that good we'll all be out of a job.

nearmiss
04-19-2006, 11:37 AM
When Oleg mentioned the AI now would have the same Flight models as users that was good news.

There will be issues, but that makes a level playing ground eventually possible.

Oleg can eventually program many manuevers and tactics into the AI. Aerial combat will be much more exciting and immersive when engaging AI.

I assume he also made the damage models equal to users as well. I think if 2 each .303 hits can take me out they should take out the AI as well.

Oleg has pumped new life into this series for 5 years. It's just gonna require too much to make this dog hunt much longer.

The BOB flight models have been introduced into IL2 and I'm not unhappy with them. Sure there are anomalies, but I think they're better. I don't necessarily agree that C.E.M. is really necessary since we have no navigation system and you can't read the darn compass in most of the planes virtual cockpits.

I do think the AI are smarter in this sim than any sim I've played. Try some QMB at higher skill levels 1 vs 1 and take on some worthy opponents. I appreciate the way the AI manuevers and some of the tactics applied.

I think it is kinda star wars when a Hurricane follows my P51D to 4KM at a respectable distance and then has the power to lift it's nose and take a nose up shot at 4KM. The Hurricane should stall and head for the deck, IMO.

Most of the things we need as far as associating AI with SMART is the ability to issue a command and have a viable response from the AI. I don't know how much ability Oleg has to do that, since he has no ability to alter the programming in the FMB.

Honestly, I think Oleg has been very reluctant to do much with the core programming. It works, it's still viable as the best CFS you can acquire...flawed as it.

WWMaxGunz
04-19-2006, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by nearmiss:
The BOB flight models have been introduced into IL2 and I'm not unhappy with them. Sure there are anomalies, but I think they're better.

Wait until we have the FULL BoB FM which uses 3D plane models with distributed weight in data
because what we have now is less good approximation.

Hey, I really like the Clemens quote of your sig. Have you read much of his less known books?

Tater-SW-
04-19-2006, 05:40 PM
We also very much need some DUMBER AI.

What I mean is that we need a toggle on a waypoint that tells the AI to follow the waypoint PERIOD. If that means flying into a mountain, so be it. If that means dropping your bombs at 10m alt, so be it.

Forcing the AI to actually do what ou tell it to would allow easier AI skip bombing as well as proper parafrag attacks.

It'd also be nice to see the AI given a "fire everything in 1 pass" ground attack option. They'd have a very lose routine of flying in with all guns blazing and dumping everything they had in one pass.

tater

nearmiss
04-19-2006, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nearmiss:
The BOB flight models have been introduced into IL2 and I'm not unhappy with them. Sure there are anomalies, but I think they're better.

Wait until we have the FULL BoB FM which uses 3D plane models with distributed weight in data
because what we have now is less good approximation.

Hey, I really like the Clemens quote of your sig. Have you read much of his less known books?[/QUOTE0]

The guy was awesome, a little kookie at times. He did have his opinions --- any intelligent person should be able to spell a word in more than one way.

He was a great lecture speaker. Kind of a thing of the past, but still viable in some circles.

There are several sites with alot of blurb on him.

Be cool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

nearmiss
04-20-2006, 08:53 PM
I just completed a mission in the QMB, which I found to be very interesting.

My P51D vs 109G2 Veteran started 3 KM. The G2 was a great dive and climber for sure. The 51 was competent, but the G2 could dive and reach better altitudes almost continually. I was getting rope a doped by the AI. He would dive and climb and turn down, and dive and climb and turn down, etc. It was interesting, because my aircraft wasn't climbing onto his butt before he was turning. I played the rope a dope with the AI for it seemed forever. The AI was basically trying to bleed off my E enough to nail my hide on one of those little dive and climb episodes.

I had to really watch my Air Speed or the little wonder boy would have given me some cannon fodder for lunch. I just pushed up steady with good RPM and leveled off and swung away abit to keep him from making a headon pass. Something about the AI...really goes for the Head to Head constantly.

I then started to stay high after the AI started diving away and then the AI started running low on the deck at lower speed. I picked up on that, because if I tried a flat turn at speed I'd Black out or most likely lose him. I did shallow Split S turns to stay with him, but it was tough. When I began dipping lower to the deck to nail him he turned and continued to turn making it extremely difficult to get a shot. I started chandelle on him with a roll and finally picked him off.

Now...I wouldn't exactly call that dumb AI behavior.