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View Full Version : YF-12A vs Yak-3 dogfight



Sergio_101
11-18-2006, 06:16 PM
Silly post about a SU-27 vs P-51.
So why not!
YF-12A has one chief advantage, it can out run
both the cannon and heavy MG ammo from the Yak. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Turning, advantage Yak......
Odds of the Yak driver ever seeing it's executioner....
ZERO. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Sergio

Worf101
11-20-2006, 12:05 PM
Hooooboy, get ready for the mother of all flame wars. You might as well as "Ford or Chevy" or Michigan vs. Ohio State. Bad question. Actually there are good points to both.

CH -
Quality build
Works out of the box
Hard to kill
Decent programability
A little light for some folks (like me)
Expensive

Cougar -
All Metal construction.
Heavy Springs.
Poor recent quality control.
Needs expensive mods to be the best it can be.
Expensive
Best prgramability out today.
No 64 Bit support yet.

Hope this helps..

Da Worfster<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Worf101/My%20Pics/FortheGloryoftheEmpire1mod.jpg

mrsiCkstar
11-20-2006, 12:44 PM
I've also been thinking about a Cougar and I've heard people talk about those expensive mods...

so worf I'd like to ask, what do you mean by "needs expensive mods to be the best it can be?" ...I guess what I'm really asking is what is the best it can be? and what do the mods do?

also I've gotten the impression that the often Cougar has bugs or functionality issues, is this true?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.no.net/jonmarja/images/f4usig.jpg

Bocephus-2005
11-20-2006, 01:14 PM
So the CH feels light like the X-52? I like the X-52 but feels light in the throw. The Cougar felt great just sitting there. Have not had the chance to feel the fighterstick. I think the feel is more inportant to me than the brand. As far as modding, will the Cougar be acceptable without the mods?

Viper2005_
11-20-2006, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by mrsiCkstar:
I've also been thinking about a Cougar and I've heard people talk about those expensive mods...

so worf I'd like to ask, what do you mean by "needs expensive mods to be the best it can be?" ...I guess what I'm really asking is what is the best it can be? and what do the mods do?

also I've gotten the impression that the often Cougar has bugs or functionality issues, is this true?

As a Cougar user, I'd say that the best it can be is probably when the stick is modded up to FFSB R2 standard and the throttle has one of Cubpilot's hall sensors fitted along with a pair of IJ's switch housings and some tweaking to the friction mechanism.

Then you'll want a decent set of gameport rudder pedals. My simped F-16Cs arrived today and my flight control system is thus finally complete after about a year of on and off effort. It's up and running; first test flight will be tonight!

Once modded the Cougar is pretty bullet-proof technology. The R2 mod uses European Space Agency force transducers certified for 10^5 cycles, whilst the throttle runs on hall sensors which should last forever.

A decent set of rudder pedals will likewise use halls. I have a kit somewhere to mod my old Elite pedals (whose pot finally died last month) but now my Simpeds have arrived I doubt I'll bother.

The Uber-Cougar mod uses hall sensors in a modified gimball which is pretty good, but tends to suffer from frequent spring failures (in my case I had 2 failures well within 1000 hours). Spring changes are a real pain and springs aren't free! As such my U2Nxt is currently relegated to spares duty. If all goes to plan, my finished system should function without need for as long as the USB standard still works.

PS: The Cougar is acceptable without the mods, but because of its awful stock gimballs it's much harder to shoot with than for example an X-45. Once modded it's in a totally different league. At the end of the day you get what you pay for, and after the blood sweat and tears I'm well satisfied with the end result, especially given the projected service life; it's cost me perhaps 10-20x the price of an X-45, but OTOH it should last at least 20x as long and give higher performance.

If you're prepared to devote the required funds, time and effort to it, I don't think you can beat the Cougar. Just don't expect magic out of the box. When you buy a stock Cougar you aren't buying a stick and throttle. You're buying potential.

mrsiCkstar
11-20-2006, 01:48 PM
thanks for the detailed reply, much appreciated! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree that you get what you pay for... but I also think that the Cougar isn't cheap as it is, and at that price, you shouldn't have to settle for potential.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.no.net/jonmarja/images/f4usig.jpg

leitmotiv
11-20-2006, 02:15 PM
Search U.S. eBay for the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 Force Feedback stick. Those who constantly sing its praises are not joking. Best stick ever made. Too bad it is out-of-production. You can still get a brand new one from a good U.S. eBay dealer selling a Microsoft employee's stash. Hold out for new ones, and sometimes you can grab one for a great price. Other times the bidding will be hot and heavy. Good luck!

Bearcat99
11-20-2006, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Search eBay for the Microsoft Sidewinder 2 Force Feedback stick. Those who constantly sing its praises are not joking. Best stick ever made. Too bad it is out-of-production. You can still get a brand new one from a dealer selling a Microsoft employee's stash.

I second that... nothing against Cougars or CHs mind you.. but to me the variable resistance you get from a FFB stick... as in with damage or weps load etc... is irreplaceable once you try it. That way you can keep your X-52 and use it as a throttle/button bay.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://star.walagata.com/w/bearcat/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE> 332nd V.F.G. (http://www.geocities.com/bearcat99th/) [/list]
<span class="ev_code_GREEN">It is easier to train a boy than to repair a man.</span>

Sturmovik Essentials (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | Magnum PC.Com (http://www.magnum-pc.com/)

<span class="ev_code_white">Oleg: I think players should upgrade their PC after the release of Storm of War: The Battle of Britain, but not now. Minimum system would be probably like last year good system for IL-2 series. The simulation has gone from what was to be a study sim involving one aircraft to a real monster anthology of WWII aviation. The engine has been stretched to fit multi-engined bombers, aircraft that are linked (such as the Mistel and the TB-3/I-16 combinations), aircraft carriers, runway cratering, working searchlights, etc.



</span>

Bocephus-2005
11-20-2006, 07:55 PM
The X-52 seems real loose. I was thinking of pulling the X-45 out of the box (Saitek sent me a brand new one with a $25 dollar fee, can not complain about their customer service!), although I am afraid I will never be able to replace it with a new one. I have never had a chance to try FFB. With a modded Cougar or a FFB stick, will I approach a greater immersion with more resistance resulting in smoother flying, more control during a firing solution? Another factor that some of you may relate to is if a stick with more resistance would help slow down a sore shoulder due to injuries, age, or both? If I remember right, from reading posts, modding a Cougar can approach $700?

Black Sheep
11-21-2006, 05:32 AM
For what it's worth, I have a stock Cougar I bought three years ago and it's still working fine.

I personally think it's a great stick, my flying is pretty smooth as a result and my kill count went up quite a bit when I started using it.

However, as Viper states, the Cougar has immense potential for upgrades which put it head and shoulders above the competition.

You can find more info on the Cougar and Cougar mods at Frugal's World (http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/i126/UberCougar/Spitfire.jpg

Worf101
11-21-2006, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by mrsiCkstar:
I've also been thinking about a Cougar and I've heard people talk about those expensive mods...

so worf I'd like to ask, what do you mean by "needs expensive mods to be the best it can be?" ...I guess what I'm really asking is what is the best it can be? and what do the mods do?

also I've gotten the impression that the often Cougar has bugs or functionality issues, is this true?

Yes, yes and yes. "The Best a Cougar Can Be" is a older Cougar (I scored one on the Bay) modified with IJ's (an OZ) Uber NXT gimbals and guts along with CubbyPilot's Halls Sensor's. IJ also makes all metal speedbrake and other button housings to replace the cheap, misaligned plastic ones. All in all you can spend another $300.00 or so getting your Kitty Modded up.

While I ran the unmodded kitty for years and loved it, there's nothing like the smooth killing pleasure of a UberCougar. Cougars are now made in China (no slam, most everything is nowadays)but the quality control has just gone to hell recently. Lots of late model Cougars come with bad buttons and pots out the box and some have shipped with NO grease on their internals. This has led to excessive internal wear and premature play in the stick. The mods eliminate all of that.

I love my kitty but I'm honest with ya. If you want a trouble free out of the box experience go CH. If you eventually want the best stick money can buy for this sim, buy a Cougar and the mods.

Da Worfster<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Worf101/My%20Pics/FortheGloryoftheEmpire1mod.jpg

OD_79
11-21-2006, 06:15 AM
Personally I would not swap my CH Products stick for anything.
It works straight out of the box, programability is very good, stick and rudder pedals are essential. The Throttle is a nice add on if you want to invest in it, I do I just can't justofy it right now!

OD.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/tom1502/HurricaneSig2.jpg (http://www.79vrafhangar.co.uk)

Viper2005_
11-21-2006, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by Worf101:
Yes, yes and yes. "The Best a Cougar Can Be" is a older Cougar (I scored one on the Bay) modified with IJ's (an OZ) Uber NXT gimbals and guts along with CubbyPilot's Halls Sensor's. IJ also makes all metal speedbrake and other button housings to replace the cheap, misaligned plastic ones. All in all you can spend another $300.00 or so getting your Kitty Modded up.

While I ran the unmodded kitty for years and loved it, there's nothing like the smooth killing pleasure of a UberCougar. Cougars are now made in China (no slam, most everything is nowadays)but the quality control has just gone to hell recently. Lots of late model Cougars come with bad buttons and pots out the box and some have shipped with NO grease on their internals. This has led to excessive internal wear and premature play in the stick. The mods eliminate all of that.

I love my kitty but I'm honest with ya. If you want a trouble free out of the box experience go CH. If you eventually want the best stick money can buy for this sim, buy a Cougar and the mods.

Da Worfster

If you think the Uber is good, try this:

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb.html

Easier to install than the NXT, more reliable, more accurate, variable resistance may be set for each axis (up to 20 lbf). Awesome bit of kit! Since I got my R2, my U2Nxt hasn't been out of its box. Amongst the best joystick money I've ever spent. I am now well on my way towards being a total convert to the zero displacement control inceptor philosophy.

Agree totally about new Cougars having issues. Mine is new and the ant & rng pots are useless. Thankfully I don't use the radar much in IL2...

I'm sure that CH kit is very good, but now that I fly with solid metal control inceptors I can't see myself going back to plastic. However, if I wanted a solution out of the box, I can see the attraction of CH kit; making the Cougar work can only be described as a labour of love! My CH experience is limited but I recall playing with a Flightstick pro years ago and being very impressed...

BrotherVoodoo
11-21-2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by OD_79:
Personally I would not swap my CH Products stick for anything.
It works straight out of the box, programability is very good, stick and rudder pedals are essential. The Throttle is a nice add on if you want to invest in it, I do I just can't justofy it right now!

OD.

I dearly love all of my CH gear. The only thing I would trade my fighterstick in for would be a CH FFB fighterstick if they would every make one for us. I have considered modding FFB into mine but am not brave enough to try.
The fighterstick physically is big, so if you have large hands you would be happy. Smaller hands might be a little uncomfortable. The tension is light, but not too light. The responces are very accurate.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Hyperlobby name: 99th_RockStar

There are only two types of aircraft ??? fighters and targets.

??? Doyle 'Wahoo' Nicholson, USMC.

mrsiCkstar
11-21-2006, 10:40 AM
Don't wanna hijack the thread but I was wondering if the Logitech Wingman Force Feedback is any good? As I can't find a Microsoft FFB2 over here in Norway.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.no.net/jonmarja/images/f4usig.jpg

leitmotiv
11-22-2006, 02:34 AM
Try United States eBay, mrsiCkstar. I was able to fully equip myself with a very reasonably priced brand new one plus back-ups (I am not joking about it being the best stick---I am prepared for the long haul!). Hold out for new ones. Before I tried the Microsoft and experienced what real force-feedback could be and real resistance, I thought the Logitech Wingman FF was the best, but M-soft just blows it away. Good luck. Believe Bearcat's post above---he wouldn't steer you wrong!

Vipez-
11-22-2006, 03:45 AM
It's all down to what each person prefers. But I've tried all COugars and CHs, and I have to say I allways archieved the best gun accurasy with CH-sticks.. Draw your own conclusions.. CH is usually the most expensive, but I believe it's worth it..<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

__________________________


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A.K.A LeOs.K_Vipez

mrsiCkstar
11-22-2006, 04:12 AM
I would go the e-bay route for a Microsoft stick but I fera many of them won't ship to norway... I already found many in the UK e-bay and it was the same... shipping to UK only http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

Edit: well I found one auction that sihps worldwide but it ends in 3 hours! but I'll keep my eye out for future auctions. Thanks for the tip leitmotiv!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.no.net/jonmarja/images/f4usig.jpg

ste_lakey
11-22-2006, 04:47 AM
I got a CH Fighterstick after my X36 stick snapped, mainly cos I still use the throttle part of my x36. Out of the box it had some centering problems, which after googling found a common solution was too take it apart and put some card in the x y pot fittings to make it a tighter fit. This worked a treat and now it works flawlessly. One comparison to the X36 I noticed was that although a bit lighter, the CH Stick seems to have a fair bit more throw in it and as such is a lot more sensitive, with the result that I had to change my config settings. Previously my X36 was based on the standard oleg settings (1 4 6 ... 100 etc) now it is more like (60 65 70 ... 100).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/ste_lakey/611LancsSqn.jpg