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mdewals
04-30-2005, 02:38 PM
Hi,

I recently got back into IL-2 and thus been visiting the forums here just recently.

I read that Oleg is making BoB, which will be followed by other WW2 campaigns.

He said something like: First BoB and then we cover the rest of WW2.

If he wants to cover WW2, why not start off in 1939, with Germany invading Europe? That way you really cover the entire War.

it seems to me that gaming companies are reluctant to make WW2 games from the German side.

-Micha

taisto_s
04-30-2005, 03:11 PM
visit this site: http://www.9-1939.pl/

Jazz-Man
04-30-2005, 03:35 PM
I think if you want to play a game where Germany is the good guys, that's a problem with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

England vs Germany is as much from the German perspective as any other campaign. The Battle of Britain is significant in military history because it was the first ever battle to be fought entirely by two air forces. What better place to start a WW2 air combat simulation series?

fherathras
04-30-2005, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Jazz-Man:
I think if you want to play a game where Germany is the good guys, that's a problem with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

England vs Germany is as much from the German perspective as any other campaign. The Battle of Britain is significant in military history because it was the first ever battle to be fought entirely by two air forces. What better place to start a WW2 air combat simulation series?



you seem to have misunderstodd the first poster.
no where in his writings did he mention the germans as "good guys"


he asked if it would not be wiser (seeing we want to cover the whole ww2 airwar) to start of where it began,


taisto, seems to have understood it. as he provided a link to a add-on to 1c-bob wich features the poland campaign, the start of the airwar.



your post seems to have a hostile tone to it, and i would preffer, you to atleast TRY to act politely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



anyways! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



I would like it if mr.maddox desided to do all the starting campaigns, like: france, poland, denmark, norway. ect.


and THEN move on to later "happenings"



all in all, have a nice evening, im of to empty another tuborg

GL2
04-30-2005, 05:44 PM
I think the reason he hasn't started with 1939 is because, in the earlier years of the war, Germany dominated its opponents. As a game, who would want to play on the side of the countries with vastly inferior planes, weapons and numbers? A game needs a degree of balance on both sides of the conflict. I think Oleg is doing it right by giving us BOB and then adding the other planes in later patches so that those who wish to recreate earlier battles can do so. But to start off, a game needs a conflict that was reasonably balanced as BOB was.

VW-IceFire
04-30-2005, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by mdewals:
Hi,

I recently got back into IL-2 and thus been visiting the forums here just recently.

I read that Oleg is making BoB, which will be followed by other WW2 campaigns.

He said something like: First BoB and then we cover the rest of WW2.

If he wants to cover WW2, why not start off in 1939, with Germany invading Europe? That way you really cover the entire War.

it seems to me that gaming companies are reluctant to make WW2 games from the German side.

-Micha
A fair question. Here's how I see it.

Battle of Britain offers a bunch of opportunities and abilities that the other scenarios that you've pointed out do not.

1) Two relatively equal air forces in terms of technology (the Spitfire Mark I and the Bf.109E are very close as pure fighters for instance)
2) Confined geographical area (i.e. the Channel to London is where the brunt of the fighting took place)
3) Small number of required aircraft needed to create the scenario (a technology testbed if you will)

Plus....as has been pointed out...there are two teams working on The Battle of Poland and The Battle of France in 1938 and 1939/40 respectively. So...there is a possibility, that after BoB's initial release, we'll be able to fly D.520's and BEF Hurricane Mark I's against the Luftwaffe over France...or P.22s against the 109E's over a true Poland map.

pourshot
04-30-2005, 06:02 PM
it seems to me that gaming companies are reluctant to make WW2 games from the German side.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by this?

Anyway I think that a 1939 game would be very boring and very one sided for the good guys.At least in the BoB both sides have a chance to win the air battle

LEXX_Luthor
04-30-2005, 07:58 PM
Actually, Poland was very active for the Good Guys. Those P11 pilots were very successful, and outside the Japanese perhaps, were the most intensive trained fighter pilots in the world. The Luftwaffe needed that 5:1 numerical superiority. We will see a New Age of flight simming when the LuftWhiners start posting that Numbers were not important. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Also, I recall reading at sinhq the theory that Oleg may be reserving Hs~123 Biplane Ground Attack (better than Stuka) for Battle of Poland/France.

Even Better, in Poland/France, we may finally see Bf~109D, a real Dora, for real flight simmers.

I actually want this (and France with Flyable Fairey Battle bomber) far more than Battle of Britain. Honestly, Spit vs 109E just don't interest me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif !!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Were there any Ju~86 *bombers* still in use by September 1939?

mdewals
04-30-2005, 08:26 PM
@pourshot: every war-game is from the good site's perspective....same with most movies more recent movies....
Not all germans where nazi's...I'd love to see a movie/game from a regular soldier's perspective...how they pretty much where brainwashed and forced to fight.

And if he wants to cover the entire war, it starts in 1939...
Also, if he would start there or at least make an addon that covers it, I finally can fly the Fokker G-1 and attempt to defend my country http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
(I'm Dutch btw)

@GL2, thats actually a good argument.


@Jazz-Man, I didnt mean I wanted to play with the germans as the "good-guys"....its more as I stated before....if he starts there, I can actually fly as a dutchy and defent my country...and maybe later even fly with the Dutch Regiment in the RAF.

FlyTyer1970
05-01-2005, 06:24 AM
There's not a good side in a war, just victims on both sides trying to survive.

p1ngu666
05-01-2005, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Actually, Poland was very active for the Good Guys. Those P11 pilots were very successful, and outside the Japanese perhaps, were the most intensive trained fighter pilots in the world. The Luftwaffe needed that 5:1 numerical superiority. We will see a New Age of flight simming when the LuftWhiners start posting that Numbers were not important. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Also, I recall reading at sinhq the theory that Oleg may be reserving Hs~123 Biplane Ground Attack (better than Stuka) for Battle of Poland/France.

Even Better, in Poland/France, we may finally see Bf~109D, a real Dora, for real flight simmers.

I actually want this (and France with Flyable Fairey Battle bomber) far more than Battle of Britain. Honestly, Spit vs 109E just don't interest me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif !!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Were there any Ju~86 *bombers* still in use by September 1939?

indeed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
and they would haveto leave the 109 at home, because 110 was teh offensive arm of the luftwaffe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

also some say ww2 started in china http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

i had a thing in a old magazine on ju86, but that maybe back up in the loft http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

also BOB was pivital for teh war, if the germans took over britain, no one would stand in the war who was effective anymore.

africa and middle east and through into asia could all be taken. (linkup with japanease)
mind u, the natives would do a nasty gerllia campaign, for sure http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

with the world open, hitler wouldnt need to invade russia, there would be another cold war, germany vs russia http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

F19_Orheim
05-01-2005, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by GL2:
... As a game, who would want to play on the side of the countries with vastly inferior planes, weapons and numbers?

I would
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

F19_Orheim
05-01-2005, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by mdewals:
I'd love to see a movie/game from a regular soldier's perspective...how they pretty much

There are actually quite a few movies.... here's just a fewDas Boot (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082096/), Conspiracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/), Stalingrad (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108211/),

BuzzU
05-01-2005, 10:47 AM
If you want a sim from the German side. Get Silent Hunter.

masaker2005
05-01-2005, 11:51 AM
WWII games from Germans side? Yeah right!Call of Duty from Germans side would be disaster!

LuckyBoy1
05-01-2005, 07:58 PM
What? The German's heroic deeds in the Spanish civil war?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Luckyboy1/little******.jpg

WWMaxGunz
05-01-2005, 08:37 PM
Oleg makes products from best data. They decided on BoB after visiting England for an
IL2 thing we saw picctures from. There, Oleg went or was taken to museum and history
groups and shown and was given information and much discussion. Unlike some American
companies, the British seem to want to help show the history. So for a new sim with
deeper detail, Oleg has the information to the BoB to his new level. It is a matter
of completeness to the degree needed.

LuckyBoy1
05-01-2005, 08:47 PM
MaxDude, I'm a U.S. citizen and personally, I think it is shamefull to see Corporations who's planes were built with our tax dollars try and hump money out of history in this way. In fact, it is almost a shamefull as watching some GM executive in the U.S. who makes over 120 times the money the line workers make announce at a news conferrence, that the Japanese, who's Auto executives make more like 10 times what the line workers make that Japanese autos are priced unfaitly low in the U.S.

I'm proud to be an American, but sometimes, it ain't easy!

p1ngu666
05-01-2005, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Oleg makes products from best data. They decided on BoB after visiting England for an
IL2 thing we saw picctures from. There, Oleg went or was taken to museum and history
groups and shown and was given information and much discussion. Unlike some American
companies, the British seem to want to help show the history. So for a new sim with
deeper detail, Oleg has the information to the BoB to his new level. It is a matter
of completeness to the degree needed.

think hes mentioned hendon, free museum so ud think it would suck abit, but its really good and has TONS of staff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

think i also remmber him saying they wanted 10,000 of some currency, for a set of plane pictures http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif (thats PER plane). i hope thats alot of detail pics.

theirs a lanc, which has "no plane will fly over reich territory" ~ goering on teh side http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

last typhoon, a burned halifax, a welligton, on a model of the place they had a whitley, but sadly there wasnt one their http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

also theres no short stirling in the world either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-01-2005, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by fherathras:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jazz-Man:
I think if you want to play a game where Germany is the good guys, that's a problem with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

England vs Germany is as much from the German perspective as any other campaign. The Battle of Britain is significant in military history because it was the first ever battle to be fought entirely by two air forces. What better place to start a WW2 air combat simulation series?



you seem to have misunderstodd the first poster.
no where in his writings did he mention the germans as "good guys"
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Germans ARE the good guys in my book. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ImpStarDuece
05-01-2005, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
MaxDude, I'm a U.S. citizen and personally, I think it is shamefull to see Corporations who's planes were built with our tax dollars try and hump money out of history in this way. In fact, it is almost a shamefull as watching some GM executive in the U.S. who makes over 120 times the money the line workers make announce at a news conferrence, that the Japanese, who's Auto executives make more like 10 times what the line workers make that Japanese autos are priced unfaitly low in the U.S.

I'm proud to be an American, but sometimes, it ain't easy!

The Japanese also tend to fire management when things are going bad. US corporations (as well as Australian, Canadian and British) tend to start 'trimming' at the lowest level. Funny, but if you get rid of 50 middle or upper managers, you save as much as if you fired 400-600 line workers, and have 'streamlined' your management process. Sounds like good business to me.

Chivas
05-02-2005, 12:28 AM
O.K. you will be given the profits of one of the following games, your pick.

1. Battle of Poland 1939
2. Battle for France 1939
or
3. Battle of Britain

It should be an easy choice.

Jazz-Man
05-02-2005, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by fherathras:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jazz-Man:
I think if you want to play a game where Germany is the good guys, that's a problem with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

England vs Germany is as much from the German perspective as any other campaign. The Battle of Britain is significant in military history because it was the first ever battle to be fought entirely by two air forces. What better place to start a WW2 air combat simulation series?

you seem to have misunderstodd the first poster.
no where in his writings did he mention the germans as "good guys"


he asked if it would not be wiser (seeing we want to cover the whole ww2 airwar) to start of where it began,

taisto, seems to have understood it. as he provided a link to a add-on to 1c-bob wich features the poland campaign, the start of the airwar.

your post seems to have a hostile tone to it, and i would preffer, you to atleast TRY to act politely http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

anyways! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I would like it if mr.maddox desided to do all the starting campaigns, like: france, poland, denmark, norway. ect.

and THEN move on to later "happenings"

all in all, have a nice evening, im of to empty another tuborg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S! Fherathras,

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't trying to be impolite. But the original poster did mention that he believe game producers were reluctant to produce games from the German perspective. I know of no flight sim which casts and judgement on either side, and in fact Forgotten Battles and Pacific Fighters are as much playable from the Axis perspective as they are from the allied.

As for why start with a Battle of Britain sim if you're trying to cover the entire air war, I've already said my peice.

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2005, 01:20 AM
Oleg's new WW2 sim should start where WW2 first began, Spain and China. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sterf21
05-02-2005, 02:08 AM
For the record: England won the BoB because of the (slightly) superior Spitfires which are excellent defense fighters for a country, the lack of range/fuel of the Messerschmitt, the English had a RADAR system to early detect the Luftwaffe, and the tactical BLUNDERS the staff of the Luftwaffe made. (for example Bombing London instead of concentrating on the airfields.)
If the Luftwaffe had 2 or so aircarriers in the North Sea(completely new for the Germans ofcourse) they would have won BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sterf21
05-02-2005, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by Chivas:
O.K. you will be given the profits of one of the following games, your pick.

1. Battle of Poland 1939
2. Battle for France 1939
or
3. Battle of Britain

It should be an easy choice.
or 4. Battle of the Benelux

Fokkers rule dude !

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2005, 02:23 AM
mmm, If Oleg started in Spain/China, he would attract people from all over the World from the start.

Totally defying the people with marketing experience, IL~2's Eastern Front shows that even the Old Timer western simmers can be attracted away from the standard 1944 Western-Europe dogfight games.

csThor
05-02-2005, 02:30 AM
I somehow doubt it, Lexx. The problem is that we Simmers do know about it, but for most other folks it's just an obscure conflict with **** planes. We can hate it or not but planes like Bf 109 E and Spit I have more "lure" for a common customer than a I-15bis/I-153/I-16 and A-5M/Ki-27 or all those types that were in action over Spain.

These two conflicts might have enough potential for an AddOn, but they lack the interest/lure that the major fronts generate. It's a marketing decision and one I can actually understand.

JG53Frankyboy
05-02-2005, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Sterf21:
..........If the Luftwaffe had 2 or so aircarriers in the North Sea(completely new for the Germans ofcourse) they would have won BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

why so expensive , just imagine the LW Fighter wings would have got Droptanks in august 1940 for their Emil fighters ! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2005, 02:48 AM
Thor::
I somehow doubt it, Lexx. The problem is that we Simmers do know about it, , but for most other folks it's just an <span class="ev_code_yellow">obscure conflict</span> with **** planes.
Sounds like Eastern Front IL~2/FB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most simmers at this webboard never heard of "eastern front" until this game -- you and I may be among the exceptions here.

Thor::
We can hate it or not but planes like Bf 109 E and Spit I have more "lure" for a common customer than a I-15bis/I-153/I-16 and A-5M/Ki-27 or all those types that were in action over Spain.
Thor, you "forgot" to include Bf~109B, C, and D in your List. This alone shows that a flight sim Dev should think independent and ignore the Old Timers --otherwise you are selling to a static, or fixed, customer base.

For the standard Old Timer USA/Europe flight sim community, yes, you are correct. For computer users around the World who have never bothered with combat flight simulators, no. And it is these people that represent vast numbers of New Customers.

Thor::
It's a marketing decision and one I can actually understand.
UBI publishing IL~2/FB in the western market may have been a marketing decision nobody understood, until now, after the fact.

csThor
05-02-2005, 03:12 AM
The Eastern Front might be "obscure" from a US point of view, but I can assure you it's not from a european one. For me there are four major theaters of this war:

Western Europe
Eastern Front
Africa & Med
Pacific (which includes every military action of the Japanese, just to keep things simple)

At least for Germany the Eastern Front is way more important than the war in the West or even Africa, at least when it comes to perception of the conflict. Most people - even if they don't care about military history - know the name Stalingrad. I know it's different from the US POV, but I stand by my words, that the Spanish Civil War and the Nomohan (sp?) incident are AddOn material at best, because most people would not even know there was a war in Spain and wouldn't know where to place Nomohan on a map, either.

S.taibanzai
05-02-2005, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Chivas:
O.K. you will be given the profits of one of the following games, your pick.

1. Battle of Poland 1939
2. Battle for France 1939
or
3. Battle of Britain

It should be an easy choice.

Battle for France in 1939 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif it was in 1940,

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2005, 03:49 AM
Well said Thor. The classic USA flight simming point of view ignores Eastern Front, and UBI defied all marketing "experience" over here by successfully releacing FB in USA, but with absolutely no advertising and with early game review rags hostile (I think). Yet look at USA now at this webboard. If you are correct, we find the same thing in Germany with regard to Spain.

USA simmers - Eastern Front
German simmers - Spain

Of course German simmers will never buy Spanish Civil WAR sim if its not made, like USA simmers will never buy Eastern Front sim if its never made.

You are making the classic Marketing failure of only asking what the Old Timer flight simmers think they "want" and assuming they only "want" what they already know. Of course they can't "want" something they have not seen yet. This is why you ignore what they want, and offer them something they will want even more.

We never even touched the subject of attracting New Customers to flight simming from all over the World outside of USA/Germany, something Spain and China simming (over 1 billion people) could do. These are people who have ignored WW2 combat flight simming, and for ~very~ good reasons.

Thor, we still want to know why you failed to include Bf~109 B, C, or D in your List of Spanish Civil WAR planeset. And Stuka for that matter. Thanx~

Dimensionaut_
05-02-2005, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by mdewals:
@pourshot: every war-game is from the good site's perspective....same with most movies more recent movies....
Not all germans where nazi's...I'd love to see a movie/game from a regular soldier's perspective...how they pretty much where brainwashed and forced to fight.

And if he wants to cover the entire war, it starts in 1939...
Also, if he would start there or at least make an addon that covers it, I finally can fly the Fokker G-1 and attempt to defend my country http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
(I'm Dutch btw)

@GL2, thats actually a good argument.


@Jazz-Man, I didnt mean I wanted to play with the germans as the "good-guys"....its more as I stated before....if he starts there, I can actually fly as a dutchy and defent my country...and maybe later even fly with the Dutch Regiment in the RAF.

Why BoB first?
The game industy is commercial. A game about Poland will not sell like the Battle of Brittain or any other major western front.

And I do not think the goal is to cover the whole war. But like said the 9/39 team is doing great work on covering the Battle in Poland. And also the Battle of France and the low countries is also an add-on that is planned:
http://battle-for-france-and-lowcountries.simulation-france-magazine.com/index.php?op=index.php

The D.XXI and G.1 are in the works for that project...
D.XXI based on this FB model:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/goshikisen/update5.jpg

And an early model of the G.1
http://www.1java.org/BoF/g1model-2.jpg

LuckyBoy1
05-02-2005, 06:24 AM
Ok, this gets to be a chicken or egg question after a while. We could dump this thread over in general discussion and banter about forever about when WWII started.

My personal take on it is that there is war at all levels all the time to one degree or another. I'm sure that before the Spanish Civil War there was something else going on and so on. We simply don't consider it "real" war because Americans or Western Europeans are not dying in it.

While I am glad Oleg punched us up a Eastern Front game, to say that it didn't slow sales, especially at first when there were few Western type planes included would be foolish.

From a marketing standpoint, he had to start punching the code somewhere. The dirty truth is that the Chinese love to pirate software, so forget about that market and the Spanish market is quite small.

Aaron_GT
05-02-2005, 06:44 AM
I think it is shamefull to see Corporations who's planes were built with our tax dollars try and hump money out of history in this way.

Microsoft provides software for the US Govt. Should Windows be free?

The planes were designed by private companies and sold to them subject to commercial contracts. Much as I don't like what Grumman is doing the public domain argument doesn't fly. The only argument is fair use, and I don't think PF constitutes fair use. I think Grumman is being petty, though.

LEXX_Luthor
05-02-2005, 06:49 AM
Lucky::
The dirty truth is that the Chinese love to pirate software,
And the Russians, or anyone else, Don't? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


so forget about that market and the Spanish market is quite small.
Spanish Civil WAR (with China WAR) involved pilots and aircraft from All aircraft designing nations, especially from Europe. The World is a large market even if the Old Timer flight simmers represent a small and dwindling market.

The combat flight sim market is small but there are still flight sims. Indeed, the sad devotion to USA/WestEuro Old Timer flight simmer "wants" may be exactly the reason flight sims don't attract New Customers it needs (actually, one of many social reasons which is a great topic itself).

This is where flight sim Devs must think independent of the "Eastern Front can't sell in west market" gamers thinking they have "marketing experience." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LuckyBoy1
05-02-2005, 09:07 AM
LexDude, the rotten truth is that if you wanna actually sell a few legal copies of a game, you'll do so in the U.S. As a result, I find the whining that the world actually caters to the only market that truly pays them for their work to be just so much whining.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Luckyboy1/clubthekids.jpg

Aaron_GT
05-02-2005, 09:31 AM
[qoute]As a result, I find the whining that the world actually caters to the only market that truly pays them for their work to be just so much whining.[/quote]

That's pretty offensive to the large number of people in Europe who have paid legally for their copies. For IL-2 (the original version especially) Europe has been a sizeable market. Ditto things like the MSFS series - lots of totally legal sales in Europe.

BuzzU
05-02-2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Sterf21:
For the record: England won the BoB because of the (slightly) superior Spitfires which are excellent defense fighters for a country, the lack of range/fuel of the Messerschmitt, the English had a RADAR system to early detect the Luftwaffe, and the tactical BLUNDERS the staff of the Luftwaffe made. (for example Bombing London instead of concentrating on the airfields.)
If the Luftwaffe had 2 or so aircarriers in the North Sea(completely new for the Germans ofcourse) they would have won BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So, you give no credit to the men fighting the war? The Brits are a brave group who don't take c-rap from anybody. Have you ever fought one? The Germans underestimated them, and got their butts kicked.

Then they tried the same thing with the Russians, and got the same results.

I love seeing bullies get what they deserve.

p1ngu666
05-02-2005, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sterf21:
For the record: England won the BoB because of the (slightly) superior Spitfires which are excellent defense fighters for a country, the lack of range/fuel of the Messerschmitt, the English had a RADAR system to early detect the Luftwaffe, and the tactical BLUNDERS the staff of the Luftwaffe made. (for example Bombing London instead of concentrating on the airfields.)
If the Luftwaffe had 2 or so aircarriers in the North Sea(completely new for the Germans ofcourse) they would have won BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So, you give no credit to the men fighting the war? The Brits are a brave group who don't take c-rap from anybody. Have you ever fought one? The Germans underestimated them, and got their butts kicked.

Then they tried the same thing with the Russians, and got the same results.

I love seeing bullies get what they deserve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
indeed
hitler thought that slavs and communism was dangerous http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

but poland and france where won on the ground, air was a important role, and in china and spain. BOB was way way more air orintainted. i think we will get france and poland expansion soon after BOB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

btw i suck at BOB coops ppl host http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

faustnik
05-02-2005, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:

btw i suck at BOB coops ppl host http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

That's probably because your flying a POS Hurri I. When you get a Spit Mk1 the story will change completely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

JG53Frankyboy
05-02-2005, 11:18 AM
most RAF squadrons flew Hurries during BoB , didnt they http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
05-02-2005, 11:22 AM
I can pretty much guarantee that 99% of the reds that fly BoB won't. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
most RAF squadrons flew Hurries during BoB , didnt they http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BuzzU
05-02-2005, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
most RAF squadrons flew Hurries during BoB , didnt they http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Until they realized the 109 was better. then the Hurri's escorted bombers, and left the 109's to the Spit's.

Just like we'll do it when we get BOB.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Dimensionaut_
05-02-2005, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sterf21:
For the record: England won the BoB because of the (slightly) superior Spitfires which are excellent defense fighters for a country, the lack of range/fuel of the Messerschmitt, the English had a RADAR system to early detect the Luftwaffe, and the tactical BLUNDERS the staff of the Luftwaffe made. (for example Bombing London instead of concentrating on the airfields.)
If the Luftwaffe had 2 or so aircarriers in the North Sea(completely new for the Germans ofcourse) they would have won BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So, you give no credit to the men fighting the war? The Brits are a brave group who don't take c-rap from anybody. Have you ever fought one? The Germans underestimated them, and got their butts kicked.

Then they tried the same thing with the Russians, and got the same results.

I love seeing bullies get what they deserve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Spitfire might have been superior, but it was the Hurricane who did the work during the BoB. The RAF had them in much larger numbers, and it was far less funerable to damage.

What surprises me, is that he (being Dutch) does not take a bit of the credits as well: The Germans had as goal to take the Netherlands 'by the way' in one day. The Dutch resisted for five days before collapsing.
In the process, the crippled 75% of the Ju-52 fleet and gave the paratroopers quite some beating (killing a lot and taking hundreds away as prisoner to Canada). This made Hitler doubt that a direct invasion of the UK would be succesfull, since what would the UK do to his secret weapon, now it was public known if a small untrained country like the Netherlands allready crippled it. Besides he needed the time to reinforce and repair the Ju-52 fleet.
That made him decide to fight the BoB the way he did: trying to exhaust the RAF first and to bomb the airfields till nothing was left to defend them.

p1ngu666
05-02-2005, 12:17 PM
nah, hurris of different types, and spit Vb

hurri's elivator locks up so early at medium and high alts, 109 runs rings round it so easily, and is ofcourse better in speed climb and dive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

im no good in a vb either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

BuzzU
05-02-2005, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
nah, hurris of different types, and spit Vb

hurri's elivator locks up so early at medium and high alts, 109 runs rings round it so easily, and is ofcourse better in speed climb and dive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

im no good in a vb either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Let's keep in mind that we're talking about BOB, and not FB. I'm hoping Oleg gets all the FM's as they should be by then. The 109E had elevator problems, but also had a worse aileron response at high speed than the Spit.

faustnik
05-02-2005, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
nah, hurris of different types, and spit Vb

hurri's elivator locks up so early at medium and high alts, 109 runs rings round it so easily, and is ofcourse better in speed climb and dive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

im no good in a vb either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

But, what Bf109 are they putting you up against, "F"s or "G"s? The Bf109F and later will have speed advantages over the Spit V. In the BoB matchup, Spit MkII vs. Bf109E3, the Bf109 has no such advantage.

I'll be flying and frying angry in my Bf109E (I'm not a Bf109 fan). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif I'll get even when Oleg releases an Fw190 for BoB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Aaron_GT
05-02-2005, 01:22 PM
The Brits are a brave group who don't take c-rap from anybody.

Actually as a Brit I feel I have a great debt to the Polish and Czech pilots who fought with and for us during the Battle of Britain, especially 303 squadron. Maybe we'll get a memorial to them in London eventually.

mdewals
05-02-2005, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:

What surprises me, is that he (being Dutch) does not take a bit of the credits as well: The Germans had as goal to take the Netherlands 'by the way' in one day. The Dutch resisted for five days before collapsing.
In the process, the crippled 75% of the Ju-52 fleet and gave the paratroopers quite some beating (killing a lot and taking hundreds away as prisoner to Canada). This made Hitler doubt that a direct invasion of the UK would be succesfull, since what would the UK do to his secret weapon, now it was public known if a small untrained country like the Netherlands allready crippled it. Besides he needed the time to reinforce and repair the Ju-52 fleet.
That made him decide to fight the BoB the way he did: trying to exhaust the RAF first and to bomb the airfields till nothing was left to defend them.

if I recall correctly the Dutch surrended because the germans bombed amsterdam and threatend to bomb other big citys....not because our army was "whiped out"

eventually it probably be wiped out anyways but still

JG53Frankyboy
05-02-2005, 01:39 PM
i thought its about a game and not to repeat the war !

what a bad development the community the last months took http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
its alwasy national bashings all around.

Dimensionaut_
05-02-2005, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by mdewals:


if I recall correctly the Dutch surrended because the germans bombed amsterdam and threatend to bomb other big citys....not because our army was "whiped out"

eventually it probably be wiped out anyways but still

They surrendered indeed directly since Rotterdam was bombed. But the front was also about to collapse. The German paratroopers held the Moerdijk bridges (the only objective they met) leaving the ground forces an entry into the west part of the country.
But also the Grebbelinie was retreating.

We might have held one or up to three days maybe (in Zeeland they even did fight until the 19th of may), but our airforce was allready beaten (only C.X's left, which did a marvelous job for little losses BTW) and the RAF didn't want to support us eighter after may 13th.

Due to this the bombing of Rotterdam can also be explained as a strategic militairy bombing to defeat the troops there, which leaves 'only' one of the three rules at this subject to be broken, where the bombing of Dresden had no strategic purpose at all and thus broke all three of them...

BuzzU
05-02-2005, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i thought its about a game and not to repeat the war !

what a bad development the community the last months took http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
its alwasy national bashings all around.

Some of us are old enough to have lived during the war. We don't forget. I'd rather have 10 root canals than fly on a German squad.

It would have been different if Germany fought the war to protect themselves, but that wasn't the case. I have to respect my dad who fought the Germans. Game or not, he wouldn't understand. I'll fly American or British, and always be against WW2 Germany which is what we're simulating here. We're not talking modern Germany. I have nothing against them, but when we go back to the 40's. They're the enemy.

p1ngu666
05-02-2005, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
nah, hurris of different types, and spit Vb

hurri's elivator locks up so early at medium and high alts, 109 runs rings round it so easily, and is ofcourse better in speed climb and dive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

im no good in a vb either http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

But, what Bf109 are they putting you up against, "F"s or "G"s? The Bf109F and later will have speed advantages over the Spit V. In the BoB matchup, Spit MkII vs. Bf109E3, the Bf109 has no such advantage.

I'll be flying and frying angry in my Bf109E (I'm not a Bf109 fan). http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif I'll get even when Oleg releases an Fw190 for BoB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

even email shoots me down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

and yes aaron, non british who defended our shores, i have upmost respect for them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-02-2005, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sterf21:
For the record: England won the BoB because of the (slightly) superior Spitfires which are excellent defense fighters for a country, the lack of range/fuel of the Messerschmitt, the English had a RADAR system to early detect the Luftwaffe, and the tactical BLUNDERS the staff of the Luftwaffe made. (for example Bombing London instead of concentrating on the airfields.)
If the Luftwaffe had 2 or so aircarriers in the North Sea(completely new for the Germans ofcourse) they would have won BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So, you give no credit to the men fighting the war? The Brits are a brave group who don't take c-rap from anybody. Have you ever fought one? The Germans underestimated them, and got their butts kicked.

Then they tried the same thing with the Russians, and got the same results.

I love seeing bullies get what they deserve. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah I love seeing Imperial England's Colonies dry up culminating in the return of Hong Kong.

I love seeing the Soviet Union Collapsing into the chaotic mess that it is today.

HA HA

And no the brits aren't terribly brave, they just can't fight their own battles so go whining to the U.S. for help, must have been humbling to beg help from those who kicked you off the North American Continent originally. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-02-2005, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i thought its about a game and not to repeat the war !

what a bad development the community the last months took http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
its alwasy national bashings all around.

Some of us are old enough to have lived during the war. We don't forget. I'd rather have 10 root canals than fly on a German squad.

It would have been different if Germany fought the war to protect themselves, but that wasn't the case. I have to respect my dad who fought the Germans. Game or not, he wouldn't understand. I'll fly American or British, and always be against WW2 Germany which is what we're simulating here. We're not talking modern Germany. I have nothing against them, but when we go back to the 40's. They're the enemy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So tell me, were the Sudeten Germans protecting themselves from the P R E W A R ,thats even prior to ww1, plans to ethnically cleanse Germans out of Czechslovakia. Funny how you all never notice that. Or the systematic harassment of Germans in Polish territories. That doesn't count? They count for me! Maybe you can articulate some sort of a well thought out response other than the usual, eeeerrrrr, uhhh you the devil- OUT!

And I consider American planes junk, you just lack a sense of style, you can't help it I guess.


Here's some more for your pleasure:

Well, the expulsion holocaust perpetrated in 1945 by the Czech regime with its long-established policy of securing rapaciously gotten gains was nothing new in the Czechs' way of dealing with the Sudeten Germans. Their bestiality had tradition and method. Even the Czech Hussitism and the Hussite Wars (1419-1436) in the first half of the 15th century grew into a political movement "which condensed more and more into a pure hatred of the Germans and culminated in a downrigh war of extermination against all things German. (...) These long (Hussite) wars ultimately impacted only on the Germans. Everything ... was blamed on them, and they were often murderously decimated to such an extent, and their survivors so radically Czechified, that the losses could not be made up again. The incited mob raged then just as their descendants raged during the Sudeten expulsion 500 years later.

Rolf-Josef Eibicht

BuzzU
05-02-2005, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i thought its about a game and not to repeat the war !

what a bad development the community the last months took http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
its alwasy national bashings all around.

Some of us are old enough to have lived during the war. We don't forget. I'd rather have 10 root canals than fly on a German squad.

It would have been different if Germany fought the war to protect themselves, but that wasn't the case. I have to respect my dad who fought the Germans. Game or not, he wouldn't understand. I'll fly American or British, and always be against WW2 Germany which is what we're simulating here. We're not talking modern Germany. I have nothing against them, but when we go back to the 40's. They're the enemy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So tell me, were the Sudeten Germans protecting themselves from the P R E W A R ,thats even prior to ww1, plans to ethnically cleanse Germans out of Czechslovakia. Funny how you all never notice that. Or the systematic harassment of Germans in Polish territories. That doesn't count? They count for me! Maybe you can articulate some sort of a well thought out response other than the usual, eeeerrrrr, uhhh you the devil- OUT!

And I consider American planes junk, you just lack a sense of style, you can't help it I guess.


Here's some more for your pleasure:

Well, the expulsion holocaust perpetrated in 1945 by the Czech regime with its long-established policy of securing rapaciously gotten gains was nothing new in the Czechs' way of dealing with the Sudeten Germans. Their bestiality had tradition and method. Even the Czech Hussitism and the Hussite Wars (1419-1436) in the first half of the 15th century grew into a political movement "which condensed more and more into a pure hatred of the Germans and culminated in a downrigh war of extermination against all things German. (...) These long (Hussite) wars ultimately impacted only on the Germans. Everything ... was blamed on them, and they were often murderously decimated to such an extent, and their survivors so radically Czechified, that the losses could not be made up again. The incited mob raged then just as their descendants raged during the Sudeten expulsion 500 years later.

Rolf-Josef Eibicht </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, this justifies attacking the Brits? Explain how?

It must have hurt getting beat by our cra-p planes eh? Yeah, I know. It took 25 P-51's to shoot down one 109.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-02-2005, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuzzU:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i thought its about a game and not to repeat the war !


So tell me, were the Sudeten Germans protecting themselves from the P R E W A R ,thats even prior to ww1, plans to ethnically cleanse Germans out of Czechslovakia. Funny how you all never notice that. Or the systematic harassment of Germans in Polish territories. That doesn't count? They count for me! Maybe you can articulate some sort of a well thought out response other than the usual, eeeerrrrr, uhhh you the devil- OUT!

And I consider American planes junk, you just lack a sense of style, you can't help it I guess.


Here's some more for your pleasure:

Well, the expulsion holocaust perpetrated in 1945 by the Czech regime with its long-established policy of securing rapaciously gotten gains was nothing new in the Czechs' way of dealing with the Sudeten Germans. Their bestiality had tradition and method. Even the Czech Hussitism and the Hussite Wars (1419-1436) in the first half of the 15th century grew into a political movement "which condensed more and more into a pure hatred of the Germans and culminated in a downrigh war of extermination against all things German. (...) These long (Hussite) wars ultimately impacted only on the Germans. Everything ... was blamed on them, and they were often murderously decimated to such an extent, and their survivors so radically Czechified, that the losses could not be made up again. The incited mob raged then just as their descendants raged during the Sudeten expulsion 500 years later.

Rolf-Josef Eibicht

So, this justifies attacking the Brits? Explain how?

It must have hurt getting beat by our cra-p planes eh? Yeah, I know. It took 25 P-51's to shoot down one 109.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rather weak response but I'll answer so maybe you learn something.

03/09/1939 After Germany rejects the Anglo-French ultimatum of 1st September, which called for the withdrawal of all German forces from Poland, Britain declares war on Germany at 11am.

So you see, Germany did not attack britain. And if you really would look more closely, maybe read some biographical works by some of Hit's aids, you would see that Hit had no interest whatsoever in england and in fact Churchill began the "shooting war" if you will. Further Hit let your folks go at Dkirk.

So now what are you going to say- hmmm?

BuzzU
05-02-2005, 09:08 PM
I'll say Churchill knew a good defence was a good offence.

pourshot
05-02-2005, 09:20 PM
Germany understood perfectly well what would happen if it waged war against the Brits allies, so saying Germany did not declare war first is a weak argument.

Hitler was wise to try avoiding a fight with the brits, the last time you got you’re hat handed to you.

So far Germany is 0/2 learn to live with it.

p1ngu666
05-02-2005, 09:24 PM
quite, so lets blame allies for war, because they went and invaded other countries... oh wait, they didnt, germany was the agressor http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
oh and britain and france sat and did nothing esentialy, personly i think they should have attacked, but, i have hindsight, they dont.

and british ppl ARE brave, and have been for awhile, this is by no means a british trait, as u find bravery everywhere, in all people http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

oh and british people are from all over the world now, we are all imagrents in britain, if u go back far enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

faustnik
05-02-2005, 09:43 PM
We need to get a handle on the ethnic arguments on this forum. That kind of cr4p doesn't belong. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

ImpStarDuece
05-02-2005, 09:51 PM
Careful BuzzU, Cola is a serious troll. He only takes from the most right-wing, ultra nationalist and pro-German sources, carfully applies a thin patina of reason and opinions and then unleashes it on the community.

Actually, looking at his past posting history it's a wonder anything he ever says is taken notice of.

Do like I do, just skip over his drivel.

Oh and he is quoting Eibicht, NOT the most even or balanced of sources. In fact, Eibicht's rambling rants of Czech hordes, 'hidden' ethinc cleansing of Germans, Bolshevik conspiracies, 1918 hoxasters (Leauge of Nations and the Treaty of Versailles), the "ancient, uniteruptable presence of Germanic tribes" are downright scary. Eibicht also helped to collate and edit "UnterdrĂĽckung und Verfolgung deutscher Patrioten - Gesinnungsdiktatur in Deutschland" (Oppression and Persecution of German Patriots - Dictatorship of Political Convictions), a collection of works by authors who are on the extreeme right wing of German society, including holocaust deniers, convicted Neo-Nazis and similar low forms of life.

BuzzU
05-02-2005, 10:42 PM
That's why I didn't waste much time on my posts to him. He was easy to figure out right away.

Thanks for the warning.

Fennec_P
05-02-2005, 11:17 PM
Anyway, back on topic...

There haven't been any decent BoB games recently. Personally, I have never played any.

I've tried the Rowan's demo a few months ago, and that game looks pretty neat, but of course very dated.

I think there's a M$ game too, but if CFS3 is any indication, it'd probably worthless.

So, I think BoB is due, especially for the nice treatment I'm sure 1C will give it. BoB is just a good theatre for air combat in general. The fact that it's popular isn't a reason to pass it over.

Poland or France would be neat too (P.11 and Hawk are best planes!), but maybe not as well suited to a flight sim as BoB.

WWMaxGunz
05-03-2005, 12:54 AM
Original market was Russia, was it not? Or was UBI in it from the start?
Sales in Europe could have been guaranteed but look at how much was invested in US
adverts and you can see they didn't count on big US sales. Still, make a deal and
get one with risk/reward and the results of sales must have had something to do with
future moves.

Dimensionaut_
05-03-2005, 02:14 AM
I remember that Blue Byte or something was the international partner at first, but they were taken over by Ubisoft while IL-2 was developped.

I also remember that while both were in development, most people in the west were expecting more from B-17II then from IL-2, which was about pretty unknown matters. Only when B-17II was lacking multiplayer and turned to be less eyecandy then promotional movies showed, quite a lot turned toward IL-2.

If you have followed visits of several IL-2 related sites, back in the old days, some 50% of the visitors came from the European continent and some 25 - 30% from the American continent (so including Canada etc.).
After PF was released those figures have changed to more equal numbers.

We all know, or at least could figure out that games about big and/or well known wars in the west will sell better.
And like said, there are many people not interested in **** planes, but many are waiting for another Spitfire, Mustang, Jug etc.

A company (so also Maddox games and Ubisoft) just want to make enough profit to stay alive. It's their living. So, I see it as nothing more then logical they try to release a basic game that has best chance for success. I'm only happy that Oleg grants us a chance to have add-ons with less known battles.

And about the country bashing and giving honour to the men who fought the battles: I have learned that for many it's just a game and nothing more than that. They are only a little interested in the story behind the game. For them it is all about flying their favorite aircraft and have some fun.
Let's just face it we all can name many bad things about any country. All commited acts of crime. Sometimes ordered by the commanders, sometimes on individual basis. In the latter case often unknowing it was an act of crime and out of frustration or in the heat of the fight.

Aaron_GT
05-03-2005, 04:33 AM
"I'll say Churchill knew a good defence was a good offence."

Churchill was absolutely the right man for the job in 1940

Churchill was actually a pretty lousy strategist - e.g. Gallipoli in WW1, Italy, and the desire to mount a number of mini-invasions across North West Europe (bigger than Dieppe, but smaller than D-Day) in 1943. The mini invasions were designed to make the oppressed nations rise up, but without a clear chance of success it would most likely have led to the invasions failing and destroying any chance of any successful invasion.

There were serious concerns about his performance in 1942 and had it not been for El Alamein he might have been replaced by Eden (not necessarily a good thing either).

In 1944 there was a move to issue orders for his arrest if he did as he suggested and tried to land on the beaches of Normandy with the troops. This was probably during one of his manic phases as he was almost certainly bipolar.

Sterf21
05-03-2005, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
"I'll say Churchill knew a good defence was a good offence."

Churchill was absolutely the right man for the job in 1940

Churchill was actually a pretty lousy strategist - e.g. Gallipoli in WW1, Italy, and the desire to mount a number of mini-invasions across North West Europe (bigger than Dieppe, but smaller than D-Day) in 1943. The mini invasions were designed to make the oppressed nations rise up, but without a clear chance of success it would most likely have led to the invasions failing and destroying any chance of any successful invasion.

There were serious concerns about his performance in 1942 and had it not been for El Alamein he might have been replaced by Eden (not necessarily a good thing either).

In 1944 there was a move to issue orders for his arrest if he did as he suggested and tried to land on the beaches of Normandy with the troops. This was probably during one of his manic phases as he was almost certainly bipolar.

Hitler was also a lousy strategist. Thank God he was. If Rommel was in place for Hitler, we were talking all German right now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aaron_GT
05-03-2005, 07:48 AM
Good point, sterf. I suppose that leaves Stalin and FDR as the better strategists!

BuzzU
05-03-2005, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Sterf21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
"I'll say Churchill knew a good defence was a good offence."

Churchill was absolutely the right man for the job in 1940

Churchill was actually a pretty lousy strategist - e.g. Gallipoli in WW1, Italy, and the desire to mount a number of mini-invasions across North West Europe (bigger than Dieppe, but smaller than D-Day) in 1943. The mini invasions were designed to make the oppressed nations rise up, but without a clear chance of success it would most likely have led to the invasions failing and destroying any chance of any successful invasion.

There were serious concerns about his performance in 1942 and had it not been for El Alamein he might have been replaced by Eden (not necessarily a good thing either).

In 1944 there was a move to issue orders for his arrest if he did as he suggested and tried to land on the beaches of Normandy with the troops. This was probably during one of his manic phases as he was almost certainly bipolar.

Hitler was also a lousy strategist. Thank God he was. If Rommel was in place for Hitler, we were talking all German right now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that. Unless you think Rommel could duck from an A-Bomb.

Sharkey888
05-03-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Sterf21:
If Rommel was in place for Hitler, we were talking all German right now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think they'd been better with a Manstein or Kesselring instead of Rommel.

JG53Frankyboy
05-03-2005, 04:29 PM
hell, there were better NO WAR at all !

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-03-2005, 10:42 PM
Just too many dumb responses to respond to. But I'll just offer a generic all-encompasser.

The question I raised originally in response to another statement regarding whether Germany had a right to attack The Czechs and whether there was any justification to this. I am saying YES, due to the PREWAR ethnic cleansing plans of the czech people over Sudeten Germans. You all, and you know who you are, were unable to respond to this because you can't handle to truth. Same old story eer uhh eerrr uhhh he's the devil.....out.

Its not a thin "patina" of reason, there are educators all over the world, Americans included that have written on the Sudeten German Prewar plans to ethnically cleanse Germans. Its not news, well maybe for impy or most of you who wallow in ignorance.

Further, England was no match for Germany alone.
In truth no country was a match for Germany one to one.

Sharkey888
05-03-2005, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola

I am saying YES, due to the PREWAR ethnic cleansing plans of the czech people over Sudeten Germans.



Boy you are a real work of art! You think the Germans launched a preemptive attack on the nasty Czechs to prevent mass slaughter of the ethnic Germans-PRICELESS! Try reading Mein Kampf for some insight into Hitler's reasoning. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif



Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola:
Just too many dumb responses to respond to. But I'll just offer a generic all-encompasser

At least you got this one correct!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
And I used to like AfriCola!

BuzzU
05-03-2005, 11:13 PM
I've been listening to the same old c-rap on this forum for 4 years. Nothing new here. Not worth arguing over. You're right. The Germans were sweethearts.

JG53Frankyboy
05-04-2005, 02:11 AM
the poor NAZI regime was forced to begin the WW2 , yes , sure.
and sure they werent guilty to have killed millions of people in their death camps , it was the "others"

hell what a nonsens.
Moderators, ban this guy , in the german forum he would have been banned since ages for that ****.

ImpStarDuece
05-04-2005, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola:
Just too many dumb responses to respond to. But I'll just offer a generic all-encompasser.

The question I raised originally in response to another statement regarding whether Germany had a right to attack The Czechs and whether there was any justification to this. I am saying YES, due to the PREWAR ethnic cleansing plans of the czech people over Sudeten Germans. You all, and you know who you are, were unable to respond to this because you can't handle to truth. Same old story eer uhh eerrr uhhh he's the devil.....out.

Its not a thin "patina" of reason, there are educators all over the world, Americans included that have written on the Sudeten German Prewar plans to ethnically cleanse Germans. Its not news, well maybe for impy or most of you who wallow in ignorance.

Further, England was no match for Germany alone.
In truth no country was a match for Germany one to one.

Lucky,; do you have anything from "engrish.com" for Trink? Better make it a double serving!

carguy_
05-04-2005, 04:48 AM
I am shocked!

Who would`ve think there are still ppl who think German minorities were stalked by Czechs or Poles?

Pure Goebbels propaganda!

6mln Poles killed bacause of that?!3mln Jews killed for that?!

The only way those neonazis can be fought is not giving attention whatsoever to their poisonous lies.

Kurfurst__
05-04-2005, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
I am shocked!

Who would`ve think there are still ppl who think German minorities were stalked by Czechs or Poles?

Sorry but the abusement of German ethnics by Czechs or Poles is a matter of historical fact, regardless if Hitler used this up to wage his political goals of expansion - or more like, restoration of the Reich of which both Poland and Czech territories were part of before ww1. Neither the CZ or Poland were the 'poor victims' they like to picture themself. The CZ had loads of laws enforced on minorities, essentially they tried to create a czech dominance over the minorities - slovaks, hungarians, sudeten germans. The abusement of sudatengermans is a historical fact, just as that both countries made clear ethnic clemsing after WW2. in fact the CZ still has those racial Benes-laws even today! There was mass murders committed by the Poles on German ethnics at the beginning of the Polish campaign. Poland itself was run by a military dictatorship and btw - the poles happily annexed CZ territories when Germany took over the CZ, and they launched agressive wars on both Germany and Russia after WW1 to gain territories.

There is no need to defend or claim the actions of the nazi party and germany in WW2 'pure self defence', or say they were the only evildoers and all nations that opposed them were innocent babies is just as much of a bs. But to blame it all on them... France and Britiain declared war on Germany on it`s own will, Britain would be never bombed without that, and France would not be beaten and occupied without that. Don`t try to blame your own decisions on others. It`s just pathetic to hear the whinings about why was london bombed/france occupied after it declered war and lost battles... History isn`t black and white even if some would like to see it that way, either black or white, either for the allies or axis.

LuckyBoy1
05-04-2005, 07:02 AM
Lucky,; do you have anything from "engrish.com" for Trink? Better make it a double serving!


Ok, your wish is my demand!...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Luckyboy1/poisonous-evil-rubbish.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/Luckyboy1/poisonous-evil-rubbish.jpg

carguy_
05-04-2005, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Sorry but the abusement of German ethnics by Czechs or Poles is a matter of historical fact, regardless if Hitler used this up to wage his political goals of expansion - or more like, restoration of the Reich of which both Poland and Czech territories were part of before ww1. Neither the CZ or Poland were the 'poor victims' they like to picture themself. The CZ had loads of laws enforced on minorities, essentially they tried to create a czech dominance over the minorities - slovaks, hungarians, sudeten germans. The abusement of sudatengermans is a historical fact, just as that both countries made clear ethnic clemsing after WW2. in fact the CZ still has those racial Benes-laws even today! There was mass murders committed by the Poles on German ethnics at the beginning of the Polish campaign. Poland itself was run by a military dictatorship and btw - the poles happily annexed CZ territories when Germany took over the CZ, and they launched agressive wars on both Germany and Russia after WW1 to gain territories.

BS.Ofcourse,that is what you read in your books in high school.None of those were documented,there is no proof whatsoever whereas there are footages(home civilian movies sic!) showing mass murders on civilians.What?Those standing and smiling by a pile of dead bodies aren`t Germans?Maybe they done it by accident?Ethnic minorities made 30% of Poland population.They have had rights evey other minority had.
Another thing,have you heard about 5th column?Those were "civilians" breaking the back lines of Polish cities defence,those were the ones to setup an attack of Polish on Germans to give Hitler a reason to start a war.Polish Post Office defence personel was murdered after surrending.This 5th column was a threat but it never was disasembled because of rights minorities had.Ethnic clemsing?!Of 30% country`s population?!
Aggressive wars on USSR,Germany?!All those lands,all those houes,factories,roads were stolen by Germany and Russia in 1772!Polish campaign of 1918 started with an objective of bringing those lands back.And again,German,Russian soldiers surrendered their posts and have been taken prisoners but were not murdered for Pete`s sake!1794,1795,1831,1863 - all those dates mark the memory of those that fought for freedom but were murdered by German and Russian agressors.

You say Poland took Zaolzie in 1938 but you don`t have any idea those lands were stolen by Czechs in 1920 when Polish forces were fighting bolsheviks and had no soldiers to defend.Czechs just brought their forces to Zaolzie and took it.BTW there was no mass murders between them as Germans liked to do it.

Everything was based on returning rithful borders back when my ancestors had freedom.


There is no need to defend or claim the actions of the nazi party and germany in WW2 'pure self defence', or say they were the only evildoers and all nations that opposed them were innocent babies is just as much of a bs. But to blame it all on them... France and Britiain declared war on Germany on it`s own will, Britain would be never bombed without that, and France would not be beaten and occupied without that. Don`t try to blame your own decisions on others. It`s just pathetic to hear the whinings about why was london bombed/france occupied after it declered war and lost battles... History isn`t black and white even if some would like to see it that way, either black or white, either for the allies or axis.

You`re spilling more BS.So did Poland and Czechs declare war on 3rd Reich?There is no such info.So why were they attacked?!If you think that France and England were attacked because of declaring war on Germany you`re a more blind then I suspected.What about Danemark,Netherlands,Norway?

Yes,ofcourse Germans killed over 30mln ppl because they were pissed of whole Europe attacking them.


You`re pathetic because not only you fabricate false information but you also fail to read history.

csThor
05-04-2005, 08:56 AM
I don't know the exact background nor did I read material on the subject, but I agree with KurfĂĽrst that the relationships between the Polish and Czech states and their respective german minorities were strained (to put it mildly). If that was the result of official policies or the outright refuse of said minorities to feel as Czech/Polish citizen remains to be debated.

Carguy - I must say the Russo-Polish War from 1921/23 is not an area I know much about, but what I found on Google suggests, that Pilsudski was the aggressor here as he refused to accept the Curzon-Line and wanted a Poland of 1772. That Poland was in existance at that time, a state which had been extinct for more than a century, was a already miracle (so many other states which ended up being annexed were never re-established). To lay claim on territories for a state which hadn't been there for such a long time is extremely cocky and even escapist. Imagine Turkey would claim back all territories of the Osmanic Empire from 1913 - wouldn't you see this as equally ludicrous?
Back when the Entente set up Poland as a state most Germans thought of it as a bastard state, born by the grace of the Entente and on german soil. The industrial area of Upper Silesia - in spite of a 98% win in favor of remaining with Germany - was handed over to Poland, Western Prussia (Polish Corridor) along with Gdingen (Gdynia) went the same way and Danzig was made a "neutral town". If I had been living back then, I would not have thought any different.
And lastly - the very first thing the new Reichswehr established in 1919 was the so-called "Grenzschutz Ost" (Border Protection East). For years these forces were busy fending off minor assaults on german soil by "polish forces". I can't say if these "polish forces" were official armed forces or simply armed civilian extremists.

One last comment to Afri-Cola:

I know I'm not always fond of the official german historiography, but your claims are so obviously overrated, so obviously aimed at trolling that it's not even funny anymore. Go back under your stone.

Sharkey888
05-04-2005, 09:01 AM
It's scary that in the year 2005 people still try to justify the NAZI regime!

Minorities all over the world are "harassed" or have lesser rights, unfortunately it's always been that way. But to compare that to mass murder-forcing people into cattle cars to be gassed and burned-is really insane.

Look beyond the **** you read on the Internet and learn the truth!

Aaron_GT
05-04-2005, 09:06 AM
Ethnically German minorities in Poland and Czechoslovakia were attacked, but invading, concentration camps and the wholesale murder of millions jews, gypsies, trade unionists, slavs, and anyone else to hand is hardly proportionate...

Sharkey888
05-04-2005, 12:06 PM
CsThor your comments about Poland/Czech are very interesting and correspond today to Israel-Palastine-Lebanon. Governments just never learn.

Just remember Poland/Czech were recognized as punishment to Austria/Hungary and Germany for WW1.

IIJG69_Kartofe
05-04-2005, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:There is no need to defend or claim the actions of the nazi party and germany in WW2 'pure self defence', or say they were the only evildoers and all nations that opposed them were innocent babies is just as much of a bs. But to blame it all on them... France and Britiain declared war on Germany on it`s own will, Britain would be never bombed without that, and France would not be beaten and occupied without that. Don`t try to blame your own decisions on others. It`s just pathetic to hear the whinings about why was london bombed/france occupied after it declered war and lost battles... History isn`t black and white even if some would like to see it that way, either black or white, either for the allies or axis.

Ok ... So if i understand you well ...

If tomorow i decide do help an agressed person in the street and i take some severe injury i've made a mistake.

??? Is that your point ???

bazzaah2
05-04-2005, 01:59 PM
bag of ****e. What carguy said. It is rare that I can be bothered to post back to the Kurfurst/isegrim thing but his latest masturbatory frenzy is such, well, wank, that I just felt the need to say so.


Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I am shocked!

Who would`ve think there are still ppl who think German minorities were stalked by Czechs or Poles?

Sorry but the abusement of German ethnics by Czechs or Poles is a matter of historical fact, regardless if Hitler used this up to wage his political goals of expansion - or more like, restoration of the Reich of which both Poland and Czech territories were part of before ww1. Neither the CZ or Poland were the 'poor victims' they like to picture themself. The CZ had loads of laws enforced on minorities, essentially they tried to create a czech dominance over the minorities - slovaks, hungarians, sudeten germans. The abusement of sudatengermans is a historical fact, just as that both countries made clear ethnic clemsing after WW2. in fact the CZ still has those racial Benes-laws even today! There was mass murders committed by the Poles on German ethnics at the beginning of the Polish campaign. Poland itself was run by a military dictatorship and btw - the poles happily annexed CZ territories when Germany took over the CZ, and they launched agressive wars on both Germany and Russia after WW1 to gain territories.

There is no need to defend or claim the actions of the nazi party and germany in WW2 'pure self defence', or say they were the only evildoers and all nations that opposed them were innocent babies is just as much of a bs. But to blame it all on them... France and Britiain declared war on Germany on it`s own will, Britain would be never bombed without that, and France would not be beaten and occupied without that. Don`t try to blame your own decisions on others. It`s just pathetic to hear the whinings about why was london bombed/france occupied after it declered war and lost battles... History isn`t black and white even if some would like to see it that way, either black or white, either for the allies or axis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Sharkey888:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola

I am saying YES, due to the PREWAR ethnic cleansing plans of the czech people over Sudeten Germans.



Boy you are a real work of art! You think the Germans launched a preemptive attack on the nasty Czechs to prevent mass slaughter of the ethnic Germans-PRICELESS! Try reading Mein Kampf for some insight into Hitler's reasoning. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif



Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola:
Just too many dumb responses to respond to. But I'll just offer a generic all-encompasser

At least you got this one correct!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
And I used to like AfriCola! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3/4 of the Sudeten Germans Were ethnically cleansed 3/4!

http://www.geocities.com/ycrtmr/benesch.htm

These are Benes's own decrees!

Mein Kampf is actually quite common sense, but off course you've never read it yourself so what would you know?

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by BuzzU:
I've been listening to the same old c-rap on this forum for 4 years. Nothing new here. Not worth arguing over. You're right. The Germans were sweethearts.

You are blissfully ignorant. But I'm not. That is where we are different. I learn and you don't. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
I am shocked!

Who would`ve think there are still ppl who think German minorities were stalked by Czechs or Poles?

Pure Goebbels propaganda!

6mln Poles killed bacause of that?!3mln Jews killed for that?!

The only way those neonazis can be fought is not giving attention whatsoever to their poisonous lies.

Go look up Benes, Goebbels wasn't even around

http://www.geocities.com/ycrtmr/benesch.htm

Come back with a REAL response!

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I am shocked!

Who would`ve think there are still ppl who think German minorities were stalked by Czechs or Poles?

Sorry but the abusement of German ethnics by Czechs or Poles is a matter of historical fact, regardless if Hitler used this up to wage his political goals of expansion - or more like, restoration of the Reich of which both Poland and Czech territories were part of before ww1. Neither the CZ or Poland were the 'poor victims' they like to picture themself. The CZ had loads of laws enforced on minorities, essentially they tried to create a czech dominance over the minorities - slovaks, hungarians, sudeten germans. The abusement of sudatengermans is a historical fact, just as that both countries made clear ethnic clemsing after WW2. in fact the CZ still has those racial Benes-laws even today! There was mass murders committed by the Poles on German ethnics at the beginning of the Polish campaign. Poland itself was run by a military dictatorship and btw - the poles happily annexed CZ territories when Germany took over the CZ, and they launched agressive wars on both Germany and Russia after WW1 to gain territories.

There is no need to defend or claim the actions of the nazi party and germany in WW2 'pure self defence', or say they were the only evildoers and all nations that opposed them were innocent babies is just as much of a bs. But to blame it all on them... France and Britiain declared war on Germany on it`s own will, Britain would be never bombed without that, and France would not be beaten and occupied without that. Don`t try to blame your own decisions on others. It`s just pathetic to hear the whinings about why was london bombed/france occupied after it declered war and lost battles... History isn`t black and white even if some would like to see it that way, either black or white, either for the allies or axis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right on Baby! Now here is someone with a mind.

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by bazzaah2:
bag of ****e. What carguy said. It is rare that I can be bothered to post back to the Kurfurst/isegrim thing but his latest masturbatory frenzy is such, well, wank, that I just felt the need to say so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I am shocked!

Who would`ve think there are still ppl who think German minorities were stalked by Czechs or Poles?

Sorry but the abusement of German ethnics by Czechs or Poles is a matter of historical fact, regardless if Hitler used this up to wage his political goals of expansion - or more like, restoration of the Reich of which both Poland and Czech territories were part of before ww1. Neither the CZ or Poland were the 'poor victims' they like to picture themself. The CZ had loads of laws enforced on minorities, essentially they tried to create a czech dominance over the minorities - slovaks, hungarians, sudeten germans. The abusement of sudatengermans is a historical fact, just as that both countries made clear ethnic clemsing after WW2. in fact the CZ still has those racial Benes-laws even today! There was mass murders committed by the Poles on German ethnics at the beginning of the Polish campaign. Poland itself was run by a military dictatorship and btw - the poles happily annexed CZ territories when Germany took over the CZ, and they launched agressive wars on both Germany and Russia after WW1 to gain territories.

There is no need to defend or claim the actions of the nazi party and germany in WW2 'pure self defence', or say they were the only evildoers and all nations that opposed them were innocent babies is just as much of a bs. But to blame it all on them... France and Britiain declared war on Germany on it`s own will, Britain would be never bombed without that, and France would not be beaten and occupied without that. Don`t try to blame your own decisions on others. It`s just pathetic to hear the whinings about why was london bombed/france occupied after it declered war and lost battles... History isn`t black and white even if some would like to see it that way, either black or white, either for the allies or axis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank God for you man! Another person with a brain.

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Sharkey888:
It's scary that in the year 2005 people still try to justify the NAZI regime!

Minorities all over the world are "harassed" or have lesser rights, unfortunately it's always been that way. But to compare that to mass murder-forcing people into cattle cars to be gassed and burned-is really insane.

Look beyond the **** you read on the Internet and learn the truth!

http://www.geocities.com/ycrtmr/benesch.htm

Go a find a f---ing book on the subject of BENES in Czechland

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Ethnically German minorities in Poland and Czechoslovakia were attacked, but invading, concentration camps and the wholesale murder of millions jews, gypsies, trade unionists, slavs, and anyone else to hand is hardly proportionate...

3/4 were cleansed Aaron, and your people keep finding each other in New York, Los Angeles or Miami. Am I wrong?

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by csThor:


One last comment to Afri-Cola:

I know I'm not always fond of the official german historiography, but your claims are so obviously overrated, so obviously aimed at trolling that it's not even funny anymore. Go back under your stone.


Sheep says baaaaahhh baaaahhh. Snap out of your slumber German.

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-04-2005, 06:54 PM
Finally,

Most of you will chicken out now once you've considered the works of Benes if you have the intellectual ability to do a little research. Those of you who don't chicken, go ahead and post.

So now I hereby LOCK this thread.

LOCKED by Trink

BuzzU
05-04-2005, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Trink_Afri-Cola:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
I've been listening to the same old c-rap on this forum for 4 years. Nothing new here. Not worth arguing over. You're right. The Germans were sweethearts.

You are blissfully ignorant. But I'm not. That is where we are different. I learn and you don't. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm ignorant because I don't wish to argue with you, or I don't agree with you?

Either way, being ignorant is better than being an idiot.

OldMan____
05-04-2005, 08:05 PM
Everytime a people rise any notion of I am from people or race XX and their are from peple or race YYY (notice.. I said people.. not citzen from a country or another ,that is a completely different thing).. this people are already in the path that caused this war.

You may have a national ientity, but at the moment anyone judges other humans as different humans... they are founders of their own personal wars .

If germans saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If russians saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Jewish saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Polish saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Japanese saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Czeck saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If English saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If any family saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

In my country there is an anedocte that would translate to " A single man cannot start a disagreement alone ".


Stop trying to find someone to blame for the war. Humanity was blamed! We were imature! At the moment you say THAT PEOPLE was the blamed one.. you are being the same as Nazi were.


Just live well, and learn with the errors that were from all of us, all mankind.

p1ngu666
05-04-2005, 09:40 PM
i agree with u oldman, we have a them and us attitude as humans http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

but its important to point out, its the different cultures that make the world a interesting place http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

imo, everyone is equal, but different, to go kill ppl because they are X is wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

darkhorizon11
05-05-2005, 12:54 AM
Getting back to the topic...

As already posted there are third party projects for France and Poland.

You forgot:

The Axis didn't completely dominate prior to the battles of Britain and Stalingrad. The Italians first took British Somaliland in fall 1940 easily but by Spring 1941 almost the entire country had been re-captured by a combined British and South African effort (although I'm not aware there was much aerial activity). In fact all across Northern Africa Italian forces were in trouble. In Cyrenaica they lost 150,000 troops killed or captured, 400 tanks, 800 guns to a British loss of 2,000 troops. Not exactly a stellar Italian performance.

Mussolini attempted to invade Greece in October 28th, 1940 from Albania. They enjoyed success until December 9, 1940 when British General Wavell launched Operation Compass. A counter-offensive that took the complacent Italians completely by surprise. Only to be bailed out by the Germans.

Germany invaded virtually the whole of western Europe at a cost of only 40,000 casulties. However one of the biggest reasons why the Allies lost so badly was the intimidation of the Axis and the dellusion that Nazism wasn't "so-bad" and that a peace could be reached. At one point during the invasion, France's hero DeGaulle launched a small counteroffensive into the German southern flank eastwards of Abbeville. The attack did achieve some success and liberated a few smalls towns and villages. The potential to stall the Germans was not realized however and the French quickly withdrew.

Anyways these are not major victories (well except for Cyernica) but the Axis early war victories were far from total, perhaps in a similiar but less significant way as some of the Allied victories later in the war.

mdewals
05-05-2005, 02:21 AM
thanks darkhorizon11....at least someone with common sense.

i started this topic with the question if it wouldnt be better to start at the beginning so oleg could really cover the entire war....not which side was good or right.

anyways, I read there will be mods with the part of the war I would like (the invasion of the Netherlands).

csThor
05-05-2005, 04:05 AM
At one point during the invasion, France's hero DeGaulle launched a small counteroffensive into the German southern flank eastwards of Abbeville. The attack did achieve some success and liberated a few smalls towns and villages. The potential to stall the Germans was not realized however and the French quickly withdrew.

Sorry, that's a plain palliation. The french counterattack was made against the german Somme-Bridgehead at Abbeville. The only thing the French achieved was a reduction of its size, but they never came close to Abbeville itself. In fact the attack was so negligable that neither Guderian (Commander of XIX. Armeekorps, which was responsible for Abbeville) nor Kenneth Macksey (who later wrote a biography based on Guderians own memoirs) mention it with any word. The only things it showed was the ineffectivity of the 3,7cm PAK against heavy tanks and the value of the Acht-Acht against armored targets.

To call this attack anything else but desparate would be wrong.

darkhorizon11
05-05-2005, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by csThor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">At one point during the invasion, France's hero DeGaulle launched a small counteroffensive into the German southern flank eastwards of Abbeville. The attack did achieve some success and liberated a few smalls towns and villages. The potential to stall the Germans was not realized however and the French quickly withdrew.



Sorry, that's a plain palliation. The french counterattack was made against the german Somme-Bridgehead at Abbeville. The only thing the French achieved was a reduction of its size, but they never came close to Abbeville itself. In fact the attack was so negligable that neither Guderian (Commander of XIX. Armeekorps, which was responsible for Abbeville) nor Kenneth Macksey (who later wrote a biography based on Guderians own memoirs) mention it with any word. The only things it showed was the ineffectivity of the 3,7cm PAK against heavy tanks and the value of the Acht-Acht against armored targets.

To call this attack anything else but desparate would be wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do agree, it wasn't any real victory. I haven't read Guderians biography (my friend has it I'll have to ask him) but the point I was making is that the French counter-attack perhaps could have bought more time for the Allied soldiers that were soon to be trapped at Dunkirk. The Germans pushed the majority of their forces northwards knowing that there would be an evacuation attempt across the channel and that the Italians were going to invade the south coast of France. Anyways the point is that the French attack took the Germans by surprise and if instead of hesitating the doomed French continued their attack this would have forced more Wehrmacht troops to be re-deployed to the South.

Not that it really mattered in the ultimate outcome of the war. I just wanted to state that as tough as the Germans were in the early war years they relied heavily on intimidation and the fact that everyone else was still seeking a peaceful resolution.

darkhorizon11
05-05-2005, 12:47 PM
Thanks mdewals I didn't even read half of the junk just skimmed it being its a lot of nationalistic cr@p. As an American I can't talk we weren't even involved in this stage of the war anyway. My real query is maps... It bugs me that we have to use the wrong maps to "simulate" a certain battle.

Too be honest with you I've played to many BoB games lately anyways. The campaigns I'm really looking forward too are the fall of France and Poland as well as the Italian and German conquest of Greece and Yugoslavia. Those are true forgotten battles! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The190Flyer
05-05-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mdewals:
Hi,

I recently got back into IL-2 and thus been visiting the forums here just recently.

I read that Oleg is making BoB, which will be followed by other WW2 campaigns.

He said something like: First BoB and then we cover the rest of WW2.

If he wants to cover WW2, why not start off in 1939, with Germany invading Europe? That way you really cover the entire War.

it seems to me that gaming companies are reluctant to make WW2 games from the German side.

-Micha
A fair question. Here's how I see it.

Battle of Britain offers a bunch of opportunities and abilities that the other scenarios that you've pointed out do not.

1) Two relatively equal air forces in terms of technology (the Spitfire Mark I and the Bf.109E are very close as pure fighters for instance)
2) Confined geographical area (i.e. the Channel to London is where the brunt of the fighting took place)
3) Small number of required aircraft needed to create the scenario (a technology testbed if you will)

Plus....as has been pointed out...there are two teams working on The Battle of Poland and The Battle of France in 1938 and 1939/40 respectively. So...there is a possibility, that after BoB's initial release, we'll be able to fly D.520's and BEF Hurricane Mark I's against the Luftwaffe over France...or P.22s against the 109E's over a true Poland map. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Said!

It would be nice to see a 109D anyhow, did D's operate in BoB? Im not sure on that

Rola.
05-05-2005, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by The190Flyer:
It would be nice to see a 109D anyhow, did D's operate in BoB? Im not sure on that
I'm afraid - not. At least I can't find them in my list. The oldest model I can find is E, but I'd have to dig further on the exact oldest version. E-4 for sure, E-3 probably yes, maybe even E-1? (that's just from the top of my head)

But hey! thed did fly during the 1939 campaign in Poland http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
So you'd better start whining and repeat the mantra with me:

"0l3g, plz m@k3 teh P0l@nD1939 @nD S.C.W. c@mP@1gNz" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-05-2005, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
Everytime a people rise any notion of I am from people or race XX and their are from peple or race YYY (notice.. I said people.. not citzen from a country or another ,that is a completely different thing).. this people are already in the path that caused this war.

You may have a national ientity, but at the moment anyone judges other humans as different humans... they are founders of their own personal wars .

If germans saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If russians saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Jewish saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Polish saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Japanese saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If Czeck saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If English saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

If any family saw themselves as different from other people.. they were wrong and blamed on the war.

In my country there is an anedocte that would translate to " A single man cannot start a disagreement alone ".


Stop trying to find someone to blame for the war. Humanity was blamed! We were imature! At the moment you say THAT PEOPLE was the blamed one.. you are being the same as Nazi were.


Just live well, and learn with the errors that were from all of us, all mankind.

Its not about blaming someone my friend, its about correcting misconceptions. That's all. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bearcat99
05-07-2005, 11:29 AM
Well this little gem has certainly evolverd into quite a discussion....

Interestingly enough in "I Flew for the Furher" by Heinz Knocke he mentions the very ethnic cleansing that T.A.C is mentioning... That was the first time I had ever heard of it... however any legitimate claims that Germany had for "defense" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif were burned up in the ovens at the death camps...... Perhaps if the Nazi regime had not been so barbaric in it's systematic extermination of millions of human beings the "German" side would be more widely known.. as it is now when you think of Germany in WW2 all you can think of is Naziism because for all intents and purposes Naziism WAS Germany. Any WAKAN folks at all were treated like the enemy and most acted accordingly out of fear of retaliation.... many of the brave German souls paid the ultimate price to do the right thing and stand up for what was right.

As far as BoB goes and why start there... why not? It was not the very beginning of the war but truth be told.. to start at the beginning of WW2 you would have to go back to WW1. BoB is as good a place as any and better than most since it gives enough room to add on tons of other stuff later and like some have already said.. it is at a point where things were not so one sided.

Some have also mentioned marketing and the US market yada yada yada... let me tell you.... This sim was a gem from the start (IL2) and while true many Americans stayed away from it because it wasnt familiar.. (Thanks in part also to the decades of Cold War.. maybe... ya think... stuff like that doesnt just disappear like a wall coming down) just like a lot of folks will stay away from Silent Hunter because they dont want to be on the "wrong" side..... This sim has grown partly because it has spread out to other fronts but it has grown primarily by word of mouth. Quiet as it is kept CFS3 was one of the best things that ever happened to this series. Lots of folks who wanted a better sim came here... even before FB... I was one of them.... FB and the prospect of more familair planes to a lot of Western simmers fueled the growth even more but the core of this community is the IL2 simmers who came here and said..."WOW!!!" and spread the word. That core has grown to the newly and lately converted.. but you can bet that inspite of what many sy here... BoB will be on thier harddrives within a week if not a day of it's release in thier region...

Many of those same simmers who 2 years ago who thought a Yak was just a hairy animal with horns... can now tell you quite a bit not only about the planes but about the Eastern war itself. All thanks to the vision of 1C....


Lastly.... this thread no longer belongs in ORR..... Moving it to GD.. keep it civil and it will stay open... let it get out of hand and the keys come out.

Franzen
05-07-2005, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Thor:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I somehow doubt it, Lexx. The problem is that we Simmers do know about it, , but for most other folks it's just an <span class="ev_code_yellow">obscure conflict</span> with **** planes.
Sounds like Eastern Front IL~2/FB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most simmers at this webboard never heard of "eastern front" until this game -- you and I may be among the exceptions here.

Thor::
We can hate it or not but planes like Bf 109 E and Spit I have more "lure" for a common customer than a I-15bis/I-153/I-16 and A-5M/Ki-27 or all those types that were in action over Spain.
Thor, you "forgot" to include Bf~109B, C, and D in your List. This alone shows that a flight sim Dev should think independent and ignore the Old Timers --otherwise you are selling to a static, or fixed, customer base.

For the standard Old Timer USA/Europe flight sim community, yes, you are correct. For computer users around the World who have never bothered with combat flight simulators, no. And it is these people that represent vast numbers of New Customers.

Thor::
It's a marketing decision and one I can actually understand.
UBI publishing IL~2/FB in the western market may have been a marketing decision nobody understood, until now, after the fact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I happen to know for a fact that there are many players in China and Korea. I've flown on their servers. Also with each new game they are downloadable from the net before they are even on the shelves in the west. Before some one goes and accuses me of downloading them forget it. I do download them, including the betas. I also buy the orignals from the USA. If I waited to buy them here in China I'd still be waiting for FB.

The flight sim community isn't limited geographically, it's simply limited in numbers. Not so many people want to spend months to be good at a game.

I would imagine the numbers in India to be high. Of course the Japanese are also very much into planes and flight sims.

Just because you don't see them posting doesn't mean they don't exist. They have their own sites in their own languages, just not official. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Asian flight simmers than in N.A and the E.U. put together.

Fritz

csThor
05-07-2005, 01:32 PM
The problem is:

The only far-east market that is remotely comparable to the "Western" markets - the markets most publishers see as their primary and sometimes only markets - is Japan. China is still much of a dark horse speaking of software markets. I don't see India - in spite of its mass of people - as real market for flight sims as the social differences seem to be extremely high.

After all Ubisoft is a company of the "Western World" and makes software for it. That is why I think they will stick to more "familiar" topics at first and leave "obscure" (or lesser known) conflicts for AddOns at a later stage.

Trink_Afri-Cola
05-07-2005, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Well this little gem has certainly evolverd into quite a discussion....

Interestingly enough in "I Flew for the Furher" by Heinz Knocke he mentions the very ethnic cleansing that T.A.C is mentioning... That was the first time I had ever heard of it... however any legitimate claims that Germany had for "defense" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif were burned up in the ovens at the death camps......



Oh you believe that old wive's tale Bearcat?

Saunders1953
05-07-2005, 01:58 PM
T_A_C, you wearing your brown shirt or black shirt today?

MEGILE
05-07-2005, 04:24 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Trink - Fisherman Extraordinaire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu666
05-07-2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Franzen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Thor:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I somehow doubt it, Lexx. The problem is that we Simmers do know about it, , but for most other folks it's just an <span class="ev_code_yellow">obscure conflict</span> with **** planes.
Sounds like Eastern Front IL~2/FB. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most simmers at this webboard never heard of "eastern front" until this game -- you and I may be among the exceptions here.

Thor::
We can hate it or not but planes like Bf 109 E and Spit I have more "lure" for a common customer than a I-15bis/I-153/I-16 and A-5M/Ki-27 or all those types that were in action over Spain.
Thor, you "forgot" to include Bf~109B, C, and D in your List. This alone shows that a flight sim Dev should think independent and ignore the Old Timers --otherwise you are selling to a static, or fixed, customer base.

For the standard Old Timer USA/Europe flight sim community, yes, you are correct. For computer users around the World who have never bothered with combat flight simulators, no. And it is these people that represent vast numbers of New Customers.

Thor::
It's a marketing decision and one I can actually understand.
UBI publishing IL~2/FB in the western market may have been a marketing decision nobody understood, until now, after the fact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I happen to know for a fact that there are many players in China and Korea. I've flown on their servers. Also with each new game they are downloadable from the net before they are even on the shelves in the west. Before some one goes and accuses me of downloading them forget it. I do download them, including the betas. I also buy the orignals from the USA. If I waited to buy them here in China I'd still be waiting for FB.

The flight sim community isn't limited geographically, it's simply limited in numbers. Not so many people want to spend months to be good at a game.

I would imagine the numbers in India to be high. Of course the Japanese are also very much into planes and flight sims.

Just because you don't see them posting doesn't mean they don't exist. They have their own sites in their own languages, just not official. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Asian flight simmers than in N.A and the E.U. put together.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

didnt know u lived in china http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
but yes, i know ppl all over teh world thanks to FB
tons of americans (no big surprise) a guy or 2 in alaska, brazilians, aussies, newzealanders (about as far away from my home britain as u can get http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) one in japan, 1 russia
bunch of europeans, dont think i fly with anyone from africa, and realise tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Franzen
05-07-2005, 11:10 PM
p1ngu666, I think you also know "Serpentblade". He and XPC made the video "Requiem". They're from HK. Maybe you know "Red Melody"? He's also Chinese. I live in Beijing.
There are a lot of simmers in Asia but they are divided from the community by language. I don't know how many squadrons are here but I'd say more than twenty. Before IL-2, previous flight sims were also very popular in Asia.
My squadron used to have online competitions with Korean squadrons.
If there was an international language, spoken by all, I think GD would have 10 times the participants it has now. I've tried to get some guyz from China to post but they lack confidence in their English. It also doesn't help when you see an English-second-language speaker post and then some native English morons posting complaints and insults right after.

Fritz

malinkyhoy
05-08-2005, 05:58 AM
when does BoB come out, any ideas? also the betty in PF supposed to be flyable, if so why doesn't it show in my player flyable aircraft screen, or am I stupid?