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View Full Version : Being a good virtual pilot: Post 4.01



VW-IceFire
06-22-2005, 03:46 PM
Ok, so I pride myself in being a good historian and a good virtual pilot. While I'm not the greatest of combat pilots I do like to get the best out of the plane and make it make me happy.

Recently, with the 4.01 patch and the new FM...I've been less than happy with myself. I'm still learning the new ways of things and while I'm very good and very happy in some aircraft I'm not at all good with others - here's why.

Take the Yak, the 109, the 190, and any other plane without aileron or even rudder trim. I can't for the life of me get these planes on a straight an even keel. They won't stay there...they list off to the side till they run themselves into the ground. Am I wrong in thinking that most WWII planes should be able to be trimmed for straight and level? I'm not asking for perfection...if I have to fix it later I will...but should they be able to? Or is this the curse of a more real flight model?

crazyivan1970
06-22-2005, 03:51 PM
All planes that you mentioned are trimmable. Hook up with Boelcke...he`ll give you a nice lesson on trim. I did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Chuck_Older
06-22-2005, 04:07 PM
The best thing about v4.01 that I can see so far?

No argument over why Fw 190 was considered easy to fly, compared to the Bf 109 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

VW-IceFire
06-22-2005, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
All planes that you mentioned are trimmable. Hook up with Boelcke...he`ll give you a nice lesson on trim. I did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Some of them don't have anything except elevator trim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That makes it difficult. I DO know the < and > keys help....but. To no avail. Hopefully Boelcke has some pointers or ideas that I haven't got yet.

LEXX_Luthor
06-22-2005, 06:44 PM
I have rudder trim mapped to the (very) large and smooth throttle on my 20$ Saitek Cyborg Grapite. Try it. Elevator trim is mapped to mouse wheel, and as I use mouse look, and have engine throttle mapped to mouse buttons, I have a one-hand control of view, trim, and throttle. It works great.

Yes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif The experienced FB/PF Old Timer community is now learning the first steps in simulating flying WW2 warbirds.

Well done Oleg! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Ya, these things were alot of work to fly. The lower difficulty settings may finally be of some use.

knightflyte
06-22-2005, 08:01 PM
I was going through those same thoughts, IceFire.
I even dampened and changed my joystick profile. I was one tired virtual pilot BEFORE I got to the battle area.
If the lack of trim, thus making it harder to fly staight and level, is realistic, then those REAL pilots must have been very tired mentally and physically.

ivan, any links to help us luftwaffe wannabees?

p1ngu666
06-22-2005, 08:23 PM
rudder trim should let u fly straight at a wide speed range, atleast thats what ive thought. u could try looking up the cruise speed for aircraft, they should fly level in that area?

Sturm_Williger
06-23-2005, 05:47 AM
This looks like a good place to ask my question.

When I fly the 109, how exactly does the in-game rudder trim work ? I know that theoretically, it has no rudder trim. However, when I hit the right rudder trim key, something happens - after an indeterminate number of keypresses ( greater than one, less than 6 usually ), the nose yaws momentarily to the right.

I have no idea how many keypresses are required to get it to fly level because I've never been able to figure out how many are required per "nose yaw". Is the trim reacting to each keypress ? Doesn't seem to.

I normally hammer the keyboard until I've had about 4-6 "yaws" then I figure it's better than it was. But it doesn't seem to hold this trim either. After a while it seems to revert to how it was before.

So is the lack of rudder trim manifested by it not keeping any rudder trim setting ? Whereas the trimming itself is modelled in game for all planes ?

OR am I doing something totally ineffectual ? And does every rudder trim keypress actually have an effect, or is it just the "yaw" motion reflecting a keypress that "took" ?

I've always been confused about the rudder trim modelling in the game and I can't see a difference in 4.01m in terms of the effect of trimming ( hope that last sentence makes sense - in context with above questions ).

Thanks to anyone who can clear this up for me.
Cheers

Huckebein_UK
06-23-2005, 06:19 AM
It sounds vaguely like you might be pressing a button that simply activates the rudder itself. Are you sure the key is properly mapped to rudder trim?

Since 4.01, I, like IceFire, have been less than satisfied with my combat performance in almost all aircraft. Although I was never as good as IceFire in the first place I was far more potent than I am now. I have, however, developed my wrist to the point that, with my twist-stick rudder control, I can hold 109s, 190s and for that matter any aircraft straight and true in flight without using trim.

I'm still keen to learn to use it though - should make things easier. I'm always happy to fly a slightly deviant course though, that's the problem; as long as I get to my destination eventually...

Sorry, typing my thoughts out loud in that last paragraph. I definitely need more practise before I can compete on UKDedicated1 on even terms again though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

F19_Ob
06-23-2005, 06:34 AM
Yep..got to re-learn some things now.
Still wish some things were a bit harder.
Yes, I know that harder isn't always more realistic, but sometimes it is.

Sturm_Williger
06-23-2005, 08:30 AM
Erm ... bump ?

Just hoping someone who knows his sh1t about trim will tell me what I'm doing wrong ?

Cheers

F19_Ob
06-23-2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:

When I fly the 109, how exactly does the in-game rudder trim work ? I know that theoretically, it has no rudder trim. However, when I hit the right rudder trim key, something happens - after an indeterminate number of keypresses ( greater than one, less than 6 usually ), the nose yaws momentarily to the right.

I have no idea how many keypresses are required to get it to fly level because I've never been able to figure out how many are required per "nose yaw". Is the trim reacting to each keypress ? Doesn't seem to.

I normally hammer the keyboard until I've had about 4-6 "yaws" then I figure it's better than it was. But it doesn't seem to hold this trim either. After a while it seems to revert to how it was before.

So is the lack of rudder trim manifested by it not keeping any rudder trim setting ? Whereas the trimming itself is modelled in game for all planes ?

OR am I doing something totally ineffectual ? And does every rudder trim keypress actually have an effect, or is it just the "yaw" motion reflecting a keypress that "took" ?

I've always been confused about the rudder trim modelling in the game and I can't see a difference in 4.01m in terms of the effect of trimming ( hope that last sentence makes sense - in context with above questions ).

Thanks to anyone who can clear this up for me.
Cheers

Hi Sturm_Williger

Hmm the 109 should not respond at all to the rudder trim. If it does it must be a bug.
(I'll test it later) does it work in other planes without ruddertrim?
----------------------------------------


How many key presses for rudder trim depends on your speed. so if U change speed U must re-trim.
The torque at slow speeds is strong and the plane wants to weer at one side. U cant get that effect away 100% even if u trim.

The 109 wich have fixed, (groundcrew adjustable) trimtabs are set so the aircraft flies straight at around 400-450km/h.


Also check so u dont have trim set on different keys or sliders at the same time, wich is possible.
My wingie trimmed his bomber but as soon as he jumped into the gunnerseat the plane went out of trim and dived. He had accidentally set the mouse for trim aswell in the HOTAS.

Airmail109
06-23-2005, 09:24 AM
Map trim to a slider or a rotary....ive mapped trim to my x45 rotarys. I have no problems!

I am actually doing better in 4.01 than i did in 3.04....energy fighting has come into its own now!

Tallyho1961
06-23-2005, 11:30 AM
My undertanding from reading about such things is that about rudder trim for some WWII aircraft was pre-set by the ground crew - therefore unmodifiable by the pilot in flight.

The idea was to adjust the aircraft so that it would not require any rudder input to maintain trim along the yaw axis within a certain speed range - generally the cruise speed, more or less.

At all other speeds the pilot would need to use the rudder pedals to various extents to null out the tendency to yaw. I believe the Bf109 series, at least the early ones, used this system.

The way I've checked trim capabilities in IL2 is to start a mission where the aircraft in quesiton is on the ground - no distractions that way - and use the exterior view to see if anything happens when the trim control is activated: keys, HOTAS, whatever.

When trim is available you'll see the control surfaces move. When it's not, they won't. I fly allied aircraft and so I know that US fighters have trim on all three control surfaces, while Spitfires and Hurricanes lack aileron trim.

I recall reading somewhere that the Luftwaffe pilots used to joke that they could always identify a Bf109 pilot because his right leg was bigger than his left. Perhaps this is some indication of the effort required to keep this type in trim along the yaw axis.

Hope this helps.

PS - I have rudder trim on the top rotary on my X45 throttle and it works great, on aircraft with rudder trim, of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif