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View Full Version : UK TV Who downed Bader Ch4 Mon 28thAug



trumper
08-24-2006, 08:30 AM
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=61682 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifAnother one to set the video for

JG52Uther
08-24-2006, 08:35 AM
Excellent!thanks for the heads up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

jensenpark
08-24-2006, 08:43 AM
I always had heard if was due to a collision - not getting 'shot down'.

Jaws2002
08-24-2006, 09:36 AM
Yeah. He was a hero, he could not have been shot down. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

strider1
08-24-2006, 10:53 AM
S~! Same theme but with respect to the Red Baron---just on this week http://www.pbs.org/search/search_results.html?q=red+bar....x=6&btnG.y=8---lots (http://www.pbs.org/search/search_results.html?q=red+baron&neighborhood=%2Fhistory%2F&btnG.x=6&btnG.y=8---lots) of vintage footage and re-enactments with restored (?) crates. I quite enjoyed it. This is not the show but a search page from PBS with lots of Red Baron topics. Hope someone finds it interesting. Regards, Strider1

stanford-ukded
08-24-2006, 11:09 AM
Sky Plus set to record, thanks!

GBrutus
08-24-2006, 11:19 AM
Yeah. He was a hero, he could not have been shot down. Roll Eyes

No one was suggesting this. There are a few differing accounts of how he was downed, that's all. Next time, keep your snide comments to yourself.

Monty_Thrud
08-24-2006, 11:33 AM
Its just Jaws2002, he hates everything to do with the Allies, hes just a kid, he'll grow up , one day.

KaleunFreddie
08-24-2006, 11:42 AM
As in every war, the media and politicians need heroes, to 'muggle' the muggles http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A few titbits...
- Bader was supposed to be a hard-nosed person with an attitude.
- Survival in the Air-War at that time, it was with a lot of luck and little skill that one survived.
- Bader was wrong on many accounts as commented about during those dire moments in BoB, when he preferred the 'Big Wing' theory against Sailor Malan's 'Small Wing' theory. Sailor was right and only when London became the target was the 'Big Wing' viable.
- Bader became a hero because he survived and being legless, made him more of an icon of resistance.
- No less was Sailor Malan, who chose the quiet life instead of fame. And the many others....

You really should watch the animated movie - Valiant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jaws2002
08-24-2006, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
Its just Jaws2002, he hates everything to do with the Allies, hes just a kid, he'll grow up , one day.


What else do you know about me? Or you think you know.

leitmotiv
08-24-2006, 01:47 PM
As the late Johnny Johnson noted about Bader, he was a great fighter leader. He imbued his pilots with excellent tactics and the spirit of aggression. The men trained by him became some of the best British fighter pilots and fighter leaders (like Johnson). His rep will always be high regardless of his score, or his shoot down, or his tactical miscall in the Battle.

Monty_Thrud
08-24-2006, 01:51 PM
Many things.

Well said leitmotiv... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

leitmotiv
08-24-2006, 02:03 PM
Truth to tell, for a long time I disliked him for his part in throwing out Dowding for that weaselwerfer, Leigh-Mallory, but I later realized that being right in retrospect was second to being a great leader---Doug Bader was aggression incarnate and just the right man to face the German hordes. Dowding almost asked for it by sticking a thruster like Bader up at Duxford out of the fray. Bader would have backed anybody who let him into the fight. Maybe the rather pedantic Dowding disliked Bader's coarseness and eagerness. They were truly on opposite ends of the scale.

Monty_Thrud
08-24-2006, 02:13 PM
I've been a fan of his since i was little, the sheer determination of the man is amazing.

As if it wasn't enough to just learn to walk again....he wanted to fly and fight also, yes he had faults, he was human, he was one of those types who gave great hope and encouragement in times of need.

He also wasn't the only one with false legs.

leitmotiv
08-24-2006, 05:22 PM
I remember seeing a photo of one of the fighter pilots with a prosthetic arm. He was standing by the nose of his fighter which was decorated with a drawing of a cannon shell blowing off an arm. With his good hand he was giving the one finger salute to the image with a wry grin.

Bader was an incredible man. Have you read this? It would convince even a Bader hater of his greatness:

http://tinyurl.com/zlbh8

horseback
08-25-2006, 12:50 AM
All you need to know about Bader is this: he turned other men into great leaders, and because of this, his Wing did not fall apart when he went down over France.

And if he'd been a Yank, his pearl handled revolvers (and we all know what that's a substitute for) would have been bigger than Patton's.

cheers

horseback

tcr42
08-25-2006, 04:07 AM
There's an assesment I've read from Dr Alfred Price (noted BoB historian) that concluded that although Bader's Big Wings didn't actually do that much damage as was claimed - the sight of 50+ RAF fighters in a huge formation sweeping in from the north of London on 15 September (when the Luftwaffe had been told that FIghter Command was on the ropes and there was no more Spits and Hurris left) was decisive in that it shattered their morale and they knew then the jig was up....

leitmotiv
08-25-2006, 09:49 AM
Righty-O, tcr42---fact: unlike Sept 7, the German bomber formations broke and skedaddled on Sept 15---a flying rout with Heinkels, Junkers, and Dorniers dumping bombs all over London and running like scorched cats for the Channel. That's worth as much as a load of shoot downs.

trumper
08-28-2006, 06:45 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif BUMP ON TONIGHT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif

p1ngu666
08-28-2006, 07:23 AM
i think theres a russian bader who dragged himself for 2 weeks (mangled legs) to find help, he hadto have his legs removed because of mangle and frostbite, but he did fly again.

both where very determined men http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

AWL_Spinner
08-28-2006, 07:47 AM
Something else for the more generally aviation minded in the UK today -

Red Arrows documentary, 17.00-18.00 on BBC1.

Feathered_IV
08-28-2006, 08:20 AM
So er, who dunnit?

Haigotron
08-28-2006, 08:50 AM
i just read his book, i would really like to see this show...too bad i live in canada :'(

Xiolablu3
08-28-2006, 12:28 PM
Got to laugh at all the old guys who hated him.

One ex-RAF Wing COmmander said

'I couldnt stand him, he was the most self opinionated b*****d I have ever known'

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The_Upsetter
08-28-2006, 12:41 PM
Blue on Blue is my gut feeling....

Bastard or not Baders legacy was huge and had a profound impact on the RAF. Dicky Cork etc......

Xiolablu3
08-28-2006, 12:44 PM
I reckon he was shot down myself.

Sounds like he was a very proud man, he lost his legs trying to show off in a display aircraft after a civilian taunted him.

Maybe he heard a big bang and assumed it was a collision but he was shot down.

Adolf Galland swears he was shot down.

ploughman
08-28-2006, 01:55 PM
Looks like it was a blue on blue.

I was a little uncomfortable with the way they excavated what they thought was Bader's Spitfire only to discover it was a Mk IX and could've been a war grave. Good that it turned out the pilot escaped through Spain but, you know, a little respect.

Xiolablu3
08-28-2006, 01:56 PM
Yeah Ploughman, I really enjoyed that.

Looks most likely like a Blue on Blue which Bader covered up to save his comrade.

Xiolablu3
08-28-2006, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by The_Upsetter:
Blue on Blue is my gut feeling....

Bastard or not Baders legacy was huge and had a profound impact on the RAF. Dicky Cork etc......

Good instinct! You should be a detective!

Taylortony
08-28-2006, 02:00 PM
So possibly friendly fire huh........... When I was in the RAF he visited the Station and got someone charged on a parade for calling the RAF.. RAF as in RiffRaff and not R...A....F as in arrr raaa efff if that make sense...... Did not enamour himself on anyone and the charge was thrown out when he left.... Like a lot of Ex RAF officers they felt thay were still in it and what they said should still go, unfortunatly this was listened to by those that should have known better.........

Do not get me wrong he did what was needed and for that the world should be grateful.... but as a person his inter personnel skills were lacking....

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-28-2006, 02:04 PM
Interesting stuff.

Poignant bit at the end when they gave Mrs Bostock her late husband's helmet and goggles.

Schutze_S
08-28-2006, 02:14 PM
Cheers for the heads up trumper,top draw 2 hr viewing.

The chap who could identitfy stuff like the small fragment of cannon racket was a jaw dropper.

mmitch10
08-28-2006, 02:34 PM
One thing I didn't understand was the theory that Bader made up the collision story to cover for the friendly pilot who shot him down. If that were the case why did he ask Galland which of JG26 shot him down? All the same, it was an interesting show.

leitmotiv
08-28-2006, 04:02 PM
Fascinating anecdote, Taylortony. Looks like he was a martinet.

hotspace
08-28-2006, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
So possibly friendly fire huh........... When I was in the RAF he visited the Station and got someone charged on a parade for calling the RAF.. RAF as in RiffRaff and not R...A....F as in arrr raaa efff if that make sense...... Did not enamour himself on anyone and the charge was thrown out when he left.... Like a lot of Ex RAF officers they felt thay were still in it and what they said should still go, unfortunatly this was listened to by those that should have known better.........

Do not get me wrong he did what was needed and for that the world should be grateful.... but as a person his inter personnel skills were lacking....

Not being disrepectful to the man, but I've heard many stories about him and how anyone lower then 'Officer Class' was someone who wasn't fit to even breathe within 20 yards of him. Again tonight it was told how he hope it was an 'Officer' that shot him down before he changed his story http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

The man was a great leader & dog-hard fighter who did his bit for charity after the war http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif, but the rest....... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Taylortony
08-28-2006, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by HotSpace:
Again tonight it was told how he hope it was an 'Officer' that shot him down before he changed his story http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif



Well it would appear he got his wish.......... only problem it appears it was one of his own that may have done it.

One interesting thing I read about him, what made him a better combat pilots was he had no legs..........

Now you might think why, but the lack of them made him more tolerant to G..

A fully limbed pilot on the onset of high G the blood runs down and pools in the legs reducing the oxygen flow to the the brain and he passes out....... having no lower limbs allowed the blood to remain in the upper torso and reduced the onset of a blackout..... hence he could often pull more G in a dogfight than his opponents..

hotspace
08-28-2006, 04:40 PM
Yeah, there was a Prog on Brit TV in the 1970's (Was shown again on BBC 3 last year) and his fellow pilot's was saying that he could turn a Spit almost to the point that the wings would fail before he did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

You've got to admire his courage and I certainly couldn't see him trying the same in a 109.

p1ngu666
08-28-2006, 04:57 PM
maybe he thought he was downed by a 109, but had a suspision it was a spitfire..

so he asked the germans, who couldnt say who shot him down, thus he works out it was likely a blue on blue. i guess in a prison camp, you wouldnt want to say another spitfire shot u down, and he wouldnt want to say he was shot down..., hence the collision story...

hotspace
08-28-2006, 05:10 PM
Yeah, you got a good point there m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

CrazyBadger
08-28-2006, 06:19 PM
Bader just seems to be one of those guys who brings out strong emotions in people.

To my dad, Bader was one of his greatest heroes. To my uncle, he thought he was a complete barsteward.

My uncle was grounds crew during the war and stayed on for some time afterwards (switching over to the RNZAF...although don't ask me when€¦he rarely talked about it). Anyway...one of the few stories my uncle would tell was this one story after the war, in about 47, when this private plane taxi's up to dispersal. Out jumps Bader himself. He waddles straight past my uncle and as he goes past him, orders him to refuel the plane. Well my uncle said "no". Bader spins around and says, "What did you say?€. "I said no Sir...this is not RAF property and I have no orders to refuel it". "Do you know who I am?" Apparently my uncle said Bader was turning bright purple at this stage. So my uncle politely explained that yes he did know who he was but that didn't change the fact that this was not a RAF airplane and he was no longer a serving officer in the RAF.
Apparently Bader ripped into my uncle, then span around and stormed off, cursing the whole time and saying that he was going to have my uncle court marshaled. Well nothing happened. I think the officer on duty at the time said he would proceed with charges and then as soon as Bader was gone he dropped the whole thing.

The funny thing was if the subject of Bader ever got brought up when my Uncle was in town he would go on a rant about what a pompous a$$ Bader was while my father would rave about what a great leader he was. All the time I would sit quietly listening to this and chuckling as these two brothers bickered like little school kids.

p1ngu666
08-28-2006, 07:33 PM
he was probably both.

imo the best leaders lead by example. ie alexander the great etc..

guy gibson expected you todo aswell as him, minium. so theres that pressure todo excellent, but its achiveable...

John_Pimlott
08-28-2006, 07:49 PM
Alex Ross was Douglas Bader's medical orderly during their time at the German prisoner-of-war camp Oflag IVC, better known as Colditz Castle.

A bandsman in the Seaforth Highlanders who had been captured in France in 1940, Ross became Bader's orderly in 1942 at Stalag VIIIb (Lamsdorf), and volunteered to accompany him to Colditz.

In the autumn of 1943 Ross was approached by Hauptmann Pupcke, one of the German staff, and handed a letter from the Red Cross telling him that, as a non-combatant, he was being repatriated. Delighted at the prospect, Ross went up to Bader, who was in the yard at the time, and said, "I'm going home!" "No, you're bloody not," Bader retorted. "You came here as my skivvy and that's what you'll stay."

Ross remained at Colditz for a further 18 months until it was liberated. In later years former prisoners used to tell Ross that he should have shown his Red Cross letter to the senior British officer, Colonel Tod, and claimed his right to repatriation; but Ross, a quiet, patient, humorous man, seems to have decided against going over Bader's head in this way, and stuck with him to the end.

When the camp was finally liberated by American troops on April 16 1945, Bader was given lift with an American woman journalist and got back to England the next day. The remainder of the PoWs packed their belongings in boxes and were flown back to Britain after a two day hike; their baggage never arrived. After debriefing, Ross went to visit his family at Tain, on the Dornoch Firth, north of Inverness, and while there he was summoned to the Post Office to take a long-distance call from Douglas Bader.

The Battle of Britain hero wanted his spare pair of legs, and expected Ross to have brought them with him. Ross had to explain that the Americans had not allowed them to bring anything back with them - in any case, Ross later insisted, there were no spare legs. Bader called Ross a "c-word" and put down the telephone on him. It was the last occasion on which Ross heard from Bader.

p1ngu666
08-28-2006, 08:05 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

luftluuver
08-28-2006, 09:20 PM
How is a member of the Seaforth Highlanders not a combattant?

Bo_Nidle
08-29-2006, 04:07 AM
There is no doubt that Bader was an outstanding leader but his disdain for lower ranks or "Oiks" in RAF parlance is well recorded. The fact that he was an Arse does not detract from his combat skill but why people like that cannot strike a balance between being a leader and a decent chap all round escapes me?

I believe Guy Gibson had a similar personality.

Grue_
08-29-2006, 04:14 AM
Did I miss something or did the program say Bader put in a couple of claims in his final combat, yet later stated that only a single 109 was shot down and that by a different pilot? Or were they only talking about JG26 losses?

If Bader didn't have a ruthless and uncompromising personality, I doubt he would have survived the crash and manage to get back into the RAF as a pilot.

ploughman
08-29-2006, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
How is a member of the Seaforth Highlanders not a combattant?

I guess because he was a bandsman, this means in time of war his duties would be in support of the medics, or as a stretcher bearer. He would be protected to some degree under the conventions of war as a non-combatant.

Link (http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/COM/365-570031?OpenDocument) to some legal hocus pocus on the status of bandsmen

alert_1
08-29-2006, 05:54 AM
The VVS legless hero name was Meresjev, he dragged himself for a few day accross enemy lines, was finally rescued and after some remedy he jsut love to shot down fascist Fw190 in his trusty LaGG, mostly in head on attack. His story was compulsory reading in all elementary school in eastern block (maybe in N. Korea too)

John_Pimlott
08-29-2006, 05:57 AM
Indeed. Ross was a Medical Orderly. Bader must have had a rather rare quality to command that level of loyalty. Bader was one of the truest leaders of men.
Best wishes.
John Pimlott.

CrazyBadger
08-29-2006, 06:22 AM
Maybe he is just a good example of how complex the title of "hero" really is. I'm not talking about media driven stars or sports celebs getting paid outragous sums of money, but I mean the real people deserving of the name like Bader.
Does performing a heroic act make you a better person? I don't think so. But does that mean that the person deserves any less recognition? Again, I think not...but others may dissagree.
Wasn't there a quote from someone who said something along the lines of "show me a hero and I'll show you a thorough barsteward". Maybe it was from an old war movie...I don't know.
What ever, I think someone like Bader was one tough SOB who was at the right place at the right time so that his incredible spirit could shine through and be put to good use during a very dark time.
But put that same person in the corp world today...and he would just ne another A$$ of a boss that most of us would hate to work for.
He was the right person at the right time...and I thank the powers to be we had people like him back in late 30's early 40's

SeaFireLIV
08-29-2006, 06:48 AM
All `heroes` in real life, tend to have a private nasty side to them. If I remember rightly,Lord Nelson was particularly mean to his long-suffering wife.

It seems every true Hero, has his darkside.

p1ngu666
08-29-2006, 07:09 AM
everyone has a nasty side...

i know i can be absolutly horrible

Thijs_JG3
08-29-2006, 07:17 AM
The theory of friendly fire is very well discribed in the book: "Spitfire: Courage and sacrifice" by Dilip Sarkar.
ISBN: 0955043166

The book discribes around 10 young Spitfire pilots's who either got killed, went missing or made POW during World War Two. This includes the story about Douglas Bader and "Buck" Casson who was in the same flight of Bader and made POW on the same day.

The book is a great read and I can highly recomend it.

Xiolablu3
08-29-2006, 07:41 AM
ABout why did Bader ask which of Gallands men shot him down :-

He most likely asked the question 'Do you know who shot me down?' to test the water, see if Galland was going to say it was blue on blue.

Galland said I am not sure.

Bader probably thought either he really doesnt know, or he is not going to say that it was blue on blue.

Bader says jokingly 'It should be an Officer I think' still thinking Galland may know it was blue on blue, but be willing to cover it up and award the kill to a German, maybe Galland himself?

BUT - Galland really didnt see what happened, but knows it wasnt a collision. (only one of his squad lost and he was shot down)

Therefore we get the situation which developed.

Bader saying he collided, Galland saying he didnt.

Just my thoughts on the way it could have happened. Of course he may just have said 'Do you know WHO shot me down' and said nothing else.

Feathered_IV
08-29-2006, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by HotSpace:
....his fellow pilot's was saying that he could turn a Spit almost to the point that the wings would fail before he did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I wonder if that was because all the blood wouldn't rush down to his legs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

leitmotiv
08-29-2006, 10:12 AM
"Pappy" Boyington: "Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum!"

Hero is beside the point. What made Bader valuable was that in September 1940 he was fresh and full of fight when many of the fighter leaders were weary after months of fighting. In 1941 whan Fighter Command was sent on the offensive over France, his spirit of aggression was what was needed. Seems he was a complete s--t to enlisted men---a not uncommon phenomenon among regular officers of his time. Bader was so feisty he was willing to take on Dowding, commander of Fighter Command. In wartime, leaders who retain aggression, are willing to accept responsibility, and manage to not get themselves and those in their command killed are invaluable. I suspect that Moggy of A PIECE OF CAKE was modeled on Bader---recall he was good at aerobatics---possibly a tip-off to those in the know.

Lowenherz
08-29-2006, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Looks like it was a blue on blue.

I was a little uncomfortable with the way they excavated what they thought was Bader's Spitfire only to discover it was a Mk IX and could've been a war grave. Good that it turned out the pilot escaped through Spain but, you know, a little respect.

I think that if they had discovered a war grave, the relatives would have been relieved. Apparently, in Holland there is a team dedicated to discovering crashed WWII aircraft and returning the remains to their families for proper burial. To lose a loved one but have no body is a terrible thing, I am told.

Waldo.Pepper
08-31-2006, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Haigotron:
i just read his book, i would really like to see this show...too bad i live in canada :'(

I too live in Canada. But if you are a determined nutcase, like myself - then there are ways.

Posted by YEMC-PP-GB to newsgroup alt.binaries.multimedia on 08/30/06.

Go get it!