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ausgixxerpilot
02-26-2009, 09:18 AM
I'm curious as to whether the damage model includes the crew?
I've set up quick missions and specifically aimed at the pilots and gunners and haven't once been able to determine if they can be killed or wounded. I _assume_ the pilot can be neutralised as the plane will sometimes become ballistic until it crashes but this could also be due to control damage and I can't recall ever having this result when I've been specifically firing at the pilot. I also can't recall ever seeing visable damage (other than in my own aircraft) to the glass of a cockpit or turret?
When firing on bomber turret positions I have seen a gun cease firing for a short period but they always come back.
Is it possible to attack a bomber's gunners so they can't defend themselves?
Similar to taking out the AAA of a protected target before attacking the primaries.

danjama
02-26-2009, 09:21 AM
Yes you can kill gunners! You will notice the gun stops operating permanently.

jarink
02-26-2009, 09:23 AM
Yes it is possible, though it can be difficult to hit them sometimes. About the only way you can tell is when the rest of the crew has bailed out, the dead crew stay in place.

ausgixxerpilot
02-26-2009, 09:26 AM
Thanks guys :-)
I may know the problem then.
I usually only target the crewmen with rifle-caliber guns as anything bigger is likely to damage other stuff.
Could it be that rifle-caliber stuff has difficulty getting sufficient penetration?

X32Wright
02-26-2009, 09:27 AM
At other times the only way to know is for the Human pilot to tell you after you down him that you got his gunner first http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This specially happens in COOP http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ausgixxerpilot
02-26-2009, 09:38 AM
It hadn't occured to me that online pilots would know this for sure!
Thanks :-)

X32Wright
02-26-2009, 09:42 AM
Yeah for planes wiuth rear gunners the game would say:

REAR GUNNER WOUNDED

then later http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

REAR GUNNER KILLED

in four engine bombers, the tail,top and waist gunners would also be indicated if they are wounded or killed.

rnzoli
02-26-2009, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by ausgixxerpilot:
Similar to taking out the AAA of a protected target before attacking the primaries.
Possible, but altogether a very bad idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The best use of your ammunition is to empty it on the target, while evading the AAA or the rear gunners firing angles.

Instead of attacking gunners, just kill the pilot, and then ALL gunners stop firing at the same time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

ausgixxerpilot
02-26-2009, 10:07 AM
I agree it's probably a poor use of ammo :-)
I was using it to fine tune my aiming and I got bored with aiming at the engines all the time :-)
Is that correct that killing the pilot stops all the gunners from firing?

X32Wright
02-26-2009, 10:15 AM
yeah its an old game bug

b2spirita
02-26-2009, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by jarink:
Yes it is possible, though it can be difficult to hit them sometimes. About the only way you can tell is when the rest of the crew has bailed out, the dead crew stay in place.

Or if you have mods you can sometimes see the crew slumped over... if you get close enough obviously.

DKoor
02-26-2009, 10:59 AM
Rarely any thing in game gets me satisfied more than when I kill the gunner on bombers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .
Yeah I hate them so much http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Romanator21
02-26-2009, 05:26 PM
In the He-111 the Gunners and crew will slump over in their positions if you kill them. However, this doesn't happen in any other plane, go figure. I tried to set Highgore=1, but this didn't change anything, so it must be a bug. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

jamesblonde1979
02-26-2009, 05:35 PM
I'm pretty sure the Ju-88 and Betty have slumped crew in certain positions. Actually I know I have seen a rear gunner in a Stukas do it too, vanilla version, obviously it happens with the mods.

ROXunreal
02-26-2009, 05:41 PM
I distinctly remember hitting the tail gunner positions in B-17's or 29's with several 20mm cannon rounds along with bursts of machine guns on more than one occasion, and they would still keep firing. I do recall one picture showing the glass on the B-17 tail gunner position withstanding a 20mm round, but I also remember showering it in the game with no effect on the gunner.

I_KG100_Prien
02-26-2009, 06:03 PM
My favorite way of shutting down gunners is to rake the fuselage from stem to stern with 20mm. Usually as part of a high-speed head on from above.

RPMcMurphy
02-26-2009, 08:20 PM
Cool. A thread about tailgunners.
Well, I have never been real good at getting tailgunners before they start hitting me unless its a D-3A or some similar plane with no belly gunner and I can sneak-up under from behind but then the pilot usually pulls up and allows his gunner a clear shot at me. I found that its good to make high speed passes from the front or side. It seems like gunners have long-range and are very good marksmen. I'm not sure if I have ever killed one while the enemy plane was in straight and level flight,and for me its difficult as hell BEING a tailgunner as well.
One time while I was flying as rear gunner in an IL2 I was shooting at a BF-109. I got the 109 to smoke, but he hit my IL2 bad enough to kill my pilot, so I bailed out. I made a parachute landing and ran through some woods to a farmhouse as the Germans were looking for me. I noticed I was near a grass Airfield surrounded by trees where some Luftwaffe He-111s and other planes were being kept. I waited until dark and then I snuck around through the woods and I managed to gain access to one of the He-111s parked near some trees in the dark as the airfield was quiet and nobody saw me. Once inside the He-111 I spent the night learning the controls and I waited until sun-up. When the sun came up I fired up the engines and, leaving them idling, shot the hell out of anything and everything with the right side waist gun and also the top turret gun. I shot-up some German fighters parked there and a convoy of trucks that was approaching. I caused alot of chaos and destruction. Then I got back into the cockpit and throttled up flying out of there under a hail of bullets and taking hits but I got out of there anyway.
Later, about twenty miles away, my He-111 ran out of fuel and I was forced to belly-land near a river behind some trees. I hid under a train bridge as the Luftwaffe was looking for me.
I snuck over to a train station and decided to steal a motorcycle but the station was attacked by my own Air force and everything was destroyed and I was nearly incinerated. I then hitched a ride on a friendly tank that was mopping-up in the area; it was a T-34 and part of a small convoy. I was only a passenger on board the tank. As we were on our way to a designated link-up area we encountered a V-2 missile base that was being guarded by three Tiger tanks. We started taking fire and the German tanks started shooting us up pretty bad but my tank commander had the good idea of just shooting the V-2 missile that was sitting on the launch-pad near those Tigers and when we did that it must have set-off the rocket's warhead because it blew the hell out of the Tigers and everything in that general area but we were far enough away to survive the blast.
After the battle, all was quiet and smoldering ruins were all that was left of the Tigers and the launch-pad. Our fellow tanks had been destroyed by the Tigers and we were the only surviving tank. We moved on alone. On the way to the link-up area we were attacked by a lone JU-87 Stuka. It set our tank on fire and I was the only one able to get out of the tank alive. I ran and hid behind a nearby farmhouse. The Stuka was trying to kill me, but to my relief it was pursued by an LA-5 and it was shot down. I was then signaled to try to make it to a nearby river where a Russian flying boat was waiting near the shore.
I got on-board the plane and I was flown to safety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUkyANarxrE

Bearcat99
02-26-2009, 10:05 PM
In many cases the gunners are so accurate that they n ail you before you can get them.

WTE_Galway
02-26-2009, 10:30 PM
Some positions are more vulnerable than others.

The ju88 pilot seems to be particularly prone to fall over dead at the first sign of gunfire from head on or above.

horseback
02-28-2009, 04:22 PM
You're far safer trying to take out a Terminator T-1000 who is armed with a 20mm Gatling gun than an Il-2 AI gunner armed with a flintlock pistol.

I have done a number of test over the years, and my best advice is to take your shot from behind below and to the side at approximately 150m greater than your normal convergence. The higher the speed of your approach the better, and the sooner you hit the bomber, the sooner you can swerve away from the gunners' return fire.

However if you insist on following through with your madness, know this: you must hit the EXPOSED portions of the ai gunner at least three times to kill him, preferably using silver bulletts dipped in garlic. Hitting his gunns will not disable his weapon, notr will riddling his vicinity with HE shells (unless of course, this causes the tail to fall off). I simply don't believe that his unexposed torso 'exists' in the sense that a real gunner's would.

cheers and good luck

horseback

ausgixxerpilot
02-28-2009, 04:48 PM
I got some screenshots of two 20mm shells hitting the cockpit of an IL2 with no effect at all on the crew :-)

Sirrith
02-28-2009, 05:46 PM
Yes I remember that happening a LOT when I shoot at gunners, and not just with the il2, and not just the cockpit :P

Uufflakke
03-01-2009, 06:05 AM
It definately is possible to kill pilots and gunners.
Some examples:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/BG01-1.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/BG03-1.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/BG07-1.jpg

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/BG12-1.jpg

ausgixxerpilot
03-01-2009, 06:20 AM
Thanks for the pics :-)
Are they from the original game or mods?
I've never even seen blood.

Aaron_GT
03-01-2009, 06:52 AM
The best option in the game and WW2 is to not bother shooting a gunners but concentrate on downing the aircraft.

E.g.: head on, hitting the pilot, or taking out engines of fuel tanks.

To reduce the chances of being hit by return fire come in at high angles and high speed. It takes longer to set up but is much safer, and again is what was done in WW2 very often.

IL-2 gunners are too accurate due to various factors. As I understand it this is partly to offset the fact that you can't have massed formations of aircraft in combat boxes which would make anti bomber work too easy.

The gunners have advantage such as being able to see through cloud, in the dark, through bits of the plane, and not being affected as much my G, etc, plus general accuracy (although you can tweak crew experience). On the other hand they start firing too early and waste their ammunition, although if you are flying a bomber you have to use that as a substitute for them warning you of the fighter at 5 o clock.

ausgixxerpilot
03-01-2009, 07:04 AM
I agree, the aircraft is the target.
I explained earlier why I was shooting at the crew and wondered if it were possible to kill them :-)

Uufflakke
03-01-2009, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by ausgixxerpilot:
Thanks for the pics :-)
Are they from the original game or mods?
I've never even seen blood.

Blood is a mod. Just like this one:

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh195/Uufflakke/Blood01.jpg

horseback
03-01-2009, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
The best option in the game and WW2 is to not bother shooting a gunners but concentrate on downing the aircraft.

E.g.: head on, hitting the pilot, or taking out engines of fuel tanks.

To reduce the chances of being hit by return fire come in at high angles and high speed. It takes longer to set up but is much safer, and again is what was done in WW2 very often.

IL-2 gunners are too accurate due to various factors. As I understand it this is partly to offset the fact that you can't have massed formations of aircraft in combat boxes which would make anti bomber work too easy.

The gunners have advantage such as being able to see through cloud, in the dark, through bits of the plane, and not being affected as much my G, etc, plus general accuracy (although you can tweak crew experience). On the other hand they start firing too early and waste their ammunition, although if you are flying a bomber you have to use that as a substitute for them warning you of the fighter at 5 o clock. Now you've gone and tripped my trigger.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">In real life, hitting an airplane from another airplane with a turret or flexible gun was the most difficult feat in WWII aerial combat, period.</span> Standing, sitting, squatting, kneeling or laying down on a platform moving through the air at over 100 mph and aiming is extremely hard. Now add the problems of deflection to the rear up, down and to the sides and the task becomes near impossible, even in smooth level flight.

The ai gunners are beyond inhumanly accurate, even at the Rookie level <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">as long as they have an AI pilot. </span> A human pilot adds a great deal of uncertainty to the firing solution, because he doesn't fly as though he is on rails.

Fly as a gunner, and you'll see that the ai piloted planes are not subject to turbulence or even the impact of enemy rounds until the aircraft has lost control surfaces or has broken up.

The original game engine was conceived as a single plane simulation of the Sturmovik for a mainly Russian market; you can imagine what the sales would have been if the true difficulties of a gunner sitting on a sling or stool in an aircraft bouncing and swaying though the air while he tries to shoot down a fighter with a headon silhouette less than the size of your average mid sized sedan from more than two hundred meters away.

The Il-2 and its aircrew are a national icon in Russia, so anything that diminishes its legend would be close to treason. The result is that defensive aerial gunnery is grossly overmodelled for both the player and the ai.

The only way aerial gunners had a chance against fighters was to throw up as many rounds as possible in the general direction of the attacker from as many aircraft as possible, and hope for the law of averages to work in your favor.

Even then, the fighters almost always came out on top, because they could aim their fire accurately from a greater range. In reality, you could approach within 100 meters of a single bomber or attack craft with near impunity; a formation capable of mutual support was a bit more of a challenge, but most of the time, the odds were on a lone fighter's side even then, especially against two seaters with a rear facing flexible gun, particularly if the gun was rifle caliber.

Any bullet from a lone bomber that struck a vital part of an attacking fighter from over 50m away is the very definition of a Golden BB.

In-game, and particularly offline, real life historically accurate tactics won't work, and in the case of fighter vs bomber, are absolutlely turned upside down. Given the limits of the game engine, which was intended for computers considerably less capable than generally available today, that is almost inevitable, and one has to adjust.

Trying to duplicate the feats of your favorite fighter pilots using their preferred tactics is not possible in this game (or any other available right now). Make sure you have ai wingmen to divert some attention from yourself, and make your attacks at high speed from a none level angle, the more extreme the better.

While the ai gunners can be killed, it is simply unreasonably hard to do so, so forget that as a strategy. It is far safer to kill the plane.

cheers

horseback