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View Full Version : Having trouble shooting down F4Us w/ Zero? Me neither.



georgeo76
11-15-2004, 07:26 AM
I'm seeing a lot of posts about the F4Us 'uberness'. I can't comment on that, not a pilot or an engineer like most of the ppl who post here. What I can tell you is that as-is, the Corsair can be consistently beaten by Zeros of comparable year.

1. @ Co-E, the Zero has the advantage. Well, most of the time. If your both going really fast, the F4U has some options.

2. Yea the Corsair can turn well, but not as well as the Zero, not even close. If you find a Corsair turning w/ you, it's your own fault. Keep your speed down. Always try to use climbing turns, chandelle, and spiral climbs. Never follow a spiral dive!

3. Never follow the Corsair into a dive!!! Keep your altitude and re-engage @ an advantage

4. If he runs, let him! Don't try to run down a Corsair, it won't work. Instead start climbing. That way if he turns around you can cancel his speed advantage w/ your hight advantage. Sure he can get away, but I consider a bug-out a victory.

5. the Zero's armament is more than enough to crack the F4U. But you have to be conservative. @ close range, a 1 second burst into his wing or engine can dispatch a Corsair. Avoid the temptation to peeper him as he runs away.

6. Hight Hight Hight. This is easy because the Zero can climb so well. If you find yourself below a Corsair, your in trouble. But still avoid the temptation to try a BnZ if an enemy is far below you. Always attack as he tries to climb up to you.

7. Never go head to head! Never go head to head!

8. Avoid no-cockpit/Externals servers. The Corsair has awful rear visibility, while all zeros have excellent all around vision. Don't participate in an arena that negates this advantage.

9. Don't think that you only win when he explodes. Allow him to run when he's damaged. You are most exposed when your tiring to finish off an opponent as his buddy lines you up. Remember that any control damage makes carrier landing almost imposable and even if he manages to land w/ serious damage, your often awarded w/ a kill anyway. Point *****s die more often!

10. Be careful about prolonged engagements and multiple boogies. Remember, that if your in trouble you can't run.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-15-2004, 07:37 AM
Umm,... Georgeo76's Ten Commandments for Zero pilots?

Heheee, j/k. Good read, thanks m8. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kasdeya
11-15-2004, 07:38 AM
Great advice. I learn new things everyday.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by georgeo76:
10. Be careful about prolonged engagements and multiple boogies. Remember, that if your in trouble you can't run. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif
Oh yea, I hate it when I get multiple boogies and the ole lady can't set a date! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

georgeo76
11-15-2004, 07:47 AM
LOL Kasdeya

You also should take extra special care to avoid Boogie Nights! No one wants Dirk Diggler on their six!!!

Kasdeya
11-15-2004, 07:55 AM
OH Hell no!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif That aint right Fiend. That aint right.

M_S_W
11-15-2004, 08:03 AM
Actually if your rig can handle it, the corsair's mirror is excellent on a full real server so that you can see behind you quite well. I have it located on a convenient button so that I can periodically turn it on when I want to see if some zero or Ki is sneeking up on me.

Biloxi72
11-15-2004, 08:07 AM
Good post and actually mostly what i did flying the zero in the cfs2 days. Here though i fly the corsair and fly knowing this info. I dont fear the zero because i know its limits and what it can do better then my corsair. Now I get really nervous when i see the ki 84 above or at my altitude. That plane was lethal in CFS2 andits still lethal now. That is the only axis plane that i have no confidence against of all the japanese planes. I am sure the ki 61 and the ki 100 upon patch will add to my worries.

Aero_Shodanjo
11-15-2004, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RufShod:
Good post and actually mostly what i did flying the zero in the cfs2 days. Here though i fly the corsair and fly knowing this info. I dont fear the zero because i know its limits and what it can do better then my corsair. Now I get really nervous when i see the ki 84 above or at my altitude. That plane was lethal in CFS2 andits still lethal now. That is the only axis plane that i have no confidence against of all the japanese planes. I am sure the ki 61 and the ki 100 upon patch will add to my worries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean the N1K2J George? AFAIK the original installment of CFS II isnt including the Hayate.

Biloxi72
11-15-2004, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aero_Shodanjo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RufShod:
Good post and actually mostly what i did flying the zero in the cfs2 days. Here though i fly the corsair and fly knowing this info. I dont fear the zero because i know its limits and what it can do better then my corsair. Now I get really nervous when i see the ki 84 above or at my altitude. That plane was lethal in CFS2 andits still lethal now. That is the only axis plane that i have no confidence against of all the japanese planes. I am sure the ki 61 and the ki 100 upon patch will add to my worries. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean the N1K2J George? AFAIK the original installment of CFS II isnt including the Hayate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh sorry i mostly flew the 1% built planes and that had the ki84 in it. The george was good plane though it was too fast and black outs were common in cfs2. I agree that the mirror in the corsair is a real help other wise we would be in serious trouble on level flight of being jumped.

geetarman
11-15-2004, 10:02 AM
Wow! An intelligent post about how to shoot down planes in a Zero and survive.

Bravo! Nice change of pace from, "The game is ruined! Yank planes are shooting me and my school friends down in droves. This can't be right! Change everything!"

Chuck_Older
11-15-2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by georgeo76:


10. Be careful about prolonged engagements and multiple boogies. Remember, that if your in trouble you can't run. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's how they got Werner Voss- he couldn't escape

Kootenai
11-15-2004, 10:17 AM
I'd like to add that those big gull wings of the Corsair make great targets. If I can get close enough for a shot, I find it easier to quickly do mortal damage to the Corsair than to other allied fighters. Climb in from slightly underneath (in his blind spot) or at modest deflection from above if he's turning and aim for the wing root. The geometry of the wing gives you a lot of room for error. Anything that misses the wing root is likely to hit that big fuel tank in front of the cockpit or the engine.

BSS_Vidar
11-15-2004, 10:32 AM
Very good post,
I don't find fighting Zekes a problem in my trusty "Bent-winged-warrior", because I am quite familiar with the Zekes handleing. But I did get run down by a A6M5c in a 450 MPH dive last night. Something was wrong there. He never should have had any kind of closure on me.

As for the Ki-84, it was not in CFS2, nor is it the George ;-). But the Ki-84 issue in this game is a JOKE. 84's need to be toned down, or banded IMHO.

Gunny124
11-15-2004, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
Wow! An intelligent post about how to shoot down planes in a Zero and survive.

Bravo! Nice change of pace from, "The game is ruined! Yank planes are shooting me and my school friends down in droves. This can't be right! Change everything!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, amazing aint it. Somebody actually learned how to fly a bird before screaming and crying about it.

fordfan25
11-15-2004, 11:26 AM
nice post.

BlitzPig_DDT
11-15-2004, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by georgeo76:


10. Be careful about prolonged engagements and multiple boogies. Remember, that if your in trouble you can't run. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's how they got Werner Voss- he couldn't escape <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course he was also over extending himself with "one more flight" as those guys were wont to do. And it still took something like 7 planes to get him and he downed a few and damaged all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

crazyivan1970
11-15-2004, 11:37 AM
indeed

LeOs.K-Ande
11-15-2004, 11:38 AM
@BSS_Vidar:Why is the KI-84 a joke? Can you explain thank you.

georgeo76
11-15-2004, 11:48 AM
No please don't. We've already covered that ground ad infinitum and I was trying to talk about something new.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeOs.K-Ande:
@BSS_Vidar:Why is the KI-84 a joke? Can you explain thank you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LeOs.K-Ande
11-15-2004, 11:54 AM
Rgr that. No need to answer. let´s just let it be

BSS_Vidar
11-15-2004, 12:12 PM
I flew both.

Over 3 hours in a Corsair... 60 points

switched sides...

2 sorties in a Ki-84b... 1000 points

No one could touch me. I felt like I was cheating. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

faustnik
11-15-2004, 12:18 PM
Why let it go? The Corsair is given very generous turn and climb rates in the FB model. The Ki-84 is also modeled in a similar fassion. So, the Japanese have one plane that's not a piece of cake to shoot down and it gets whined at.

Here's another translation of the uber Ki-84 whine:

"Oleg the Ki-84 is overmodeled becasue I can't shoot them down in my Corsair as easily as Ben Alfleck shot down Zeros in the movie Pearl Harbor. I want to be the online Ben Akleck."

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jeez, its great to have one plane you can fly the F4U against and not feel like your cheating.

georgeo76
11-15-2004, 12:57 PM
Noooooooooooo!

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc5.jpg

faustnik
11-15-2004, 01:02 PM
Sorry Georgeo. You made a good initial post on Zero tactics. I appreciate your effort and skill as anybody flying Zeros against F4Us is up against a superior aircraft. I have seen a few do this very well.

RedDeth
11-15-2004, 01:26 PM
guaranteed to win tactics in corsair which zero cannot counter.

1. have a wingman. if 2 corsairs meet 2 zeros outcome will always be a win for corsair.

2. stay fast. zero is slow.

3. snap shoot the zero. dont turn with it. if zero turns then go vertical staying directly above it and watch him bleed his E then hammerstall and fall on him as hes low and slow.

4. if zero comes in behind you shallow dive.if zero counters by climbing you climb also.

5.use your mirror. and always pan around while checking six. a spotted zero is not a threat, even if above you.

6. it only takes one millisecond burst of a couple 50s to slow down a zero immensely.and its already a slow plane.

7. dont climb away from a zero. just extend away. or if it has speed advantage do the shallow dive .

8. repeat, rinse, and wipe the zeros engine oil off your windshield as a properly flown corsair will never be shot down by a properly flown zero.

9. NEVER

"remember corsair is a brand new plane.everyone and their dog is testing its strengths and weaknesses in dogfighting.that will lessen in time and people will fly it more like doras and k4s, two planes the zero cannot touch.p.s. if a zero wants to follow up high the corsair above 8500 meters with supercharger stage 3 becomes superman. i had a dora, zero and ki84 trail me up to 9k and turned on them and easily shot all 3 down in a short stint.if id have dove it would have been curtains for me"

KGr.HH-Sunburst
11-15-2004, 01:48 PM
LOL fighting zekes ,ive yet to be ever in danger by that slow **** paper thing
just one rule in a F4U =400kph+ and ur golden ,the only dangerous zeke is when hes higher but that goes for any plane in that regard lol
how to get the zero down is another easy part ,just look angry at them and they fall apart burning

now the Ki-84 is atleast a fighter with some options although P51s are just as fast on the deck and corsairs can turn with you ,but to say its uber ..nah not more then the allied counter parts

FF_Trozaka
11-15-2004, 01:57 PM
Excellent post Georgeo

S!

Korolov
11-15-2004, 01:58 PM
I must be the only one who thinks the A6Ms are better than the Ki-84.

Fiend is giving away all my secrets. Fiend, you PIG! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

georgeo76
11-15-2004, 02:42 PM
Yea Koro, I think your the only one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Corsair only has 3 tricks, really. Here's how to beat them:

1. BnZ: the F4U has an alt advantage, and things look grim. your only hope is to lure him into giving up his advantage, into friendly fighters, into friendly flak. The best trick is to give him an excellent shot, let him come in nice and pretty, then @ the last moment (1km or so) break or split S. Most pilots will peruse what they think is a good shot until it's too late.

2. Extend, head-on, rinse and repeat: The F4U runs away, gets 2 or 3 km away, turns around and tries again. This is easy to deal w/. Remember what I said earlier about climbing? well, you are climbing and the Corsair turns into you, you should have a slight alt advantage. OK, don't fly towards him! position yourself perpendicular to his flight path. Now he starts to try and lead you and begins to loose his smash. Ok, as he draws near slowly turn away from him (he thinks your frightened http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Get him on your 7 or 5 o'clock, and break when he gets in range (1km).

3. Sniper: any Corsair pilot who is a good shot can dispose of you quickly and unexpectedly. The only counter is to never give him a shot, not even a poor shot. This means no head-ons, never extend out front, and don't break early to give him that deflection. Always break as he closes to 1km, any earlier and he'll cut the corner and take the deflection.

Korolov
11-15-2004, 03:15 PM
1)The Corsair can avoid this defensive maneuver by simply staying high and fast. The alternative you have is to extend away and hope he'll waste his altitude in order to gain speed to catch you.

2)The Corsair in this paticular incident should do a shallow high speed climb, which will negatate any altitude advantage the A6M acquires behind it. The A6M can counter by diving under and rolling in the headon.

3)Breaking late is just as dangerous as breaking early. Same thing as 2, you force a headon but make the shot all but impossible with rolling scissors and force the Corsair into a dive - the A6M can take advantage of this for a short while as the Corsair can either continue diving, level out or go verticle.

ICDP
11-15-2004, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
guaranteed to win tactics in corsair which zero cannot counter.

1. have a wingman. if 2 corsairs meet 2 zeros outcome will always be a win for corsair.

2. stay fast. zero is slow.

3. snap shoot the zero. dont turn with it. if zero turns then go vertical staying directly above it and watch him bleed his E then hammerstall and fall on him as hes low and slow.

4. if zero comes in behind you shallow dive.if zero counters by climbing you climb also.

5.use your mirror. and always pan around while checking six. a spotted zero is not a threat, even if above you.

6. it only takes one millisecond burst of a couple 50s to slow down a zero immensely.and its already a slow plane.

7. dont climb away from a zero. just extend away. or if it has speed advantage do the shallow dive .

8. repeat, rinse, and wipe the zeros engine oil off your windshield as a properly flown corsair will never be shot down by a properly flown zero.

9. NEVER <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, never say never. Actually 1 on 1 if both planes are flown properly by experienced pilots the chances are noone will win.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
"remember corsair is a brand new plane.everyone and their dog is testing its strengths and weaknesses in dogfighting.that will lessen in time and people will fly it more like doras and k4s, two planes the zero cannot touch.p.s. if a zero wants to follow up high the corsair above 8500 meters with supercharger stage 3 becomes superman. i had a dora, zero and ki84 trail me up to 9k and turned on them and easily shot all 3 down in a short stint.if id have dove it would have been curtains for me" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well considering that the F4U in PF is capable of slightly over 700kph (435mph) at 9200 metres that wasn't a hard thing to do. The Corsairs rated top speed is 671kph (417mph) at 6066m, yet it reaches 20mph faster than that at over 3000m higher alt. The F4U can reach the same speed as a P51 at 2000m higher altitude, IRL the P51 was superior at higher alt than the F4U. Don't take my word for it though, go try it for yourself and then try claiming the F4U is modelled well in PF.

LuftLuver
11-15-2004, 04:22 PM
Great initial post!

I find the F4U vs A6M fights to be some of the most realistic of the entire sim. What happens meshes very nicely with historical accounts.

In contrast, the Ki84 is a joke. The Ki84 is exactly like the first Hurricane release. Anti-gravity plane deluxe. No wonder the axis players continually attempt to sweep this issue under the carpeting. They want to maintain this cheat for every last moment possible.

I'm happy to say that I have only gone down once to a zero in PF since its release and he took me while I was sleeping. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Otherwise, upwards of 25 have fallen to my gull wing beauty. Seems right on the money to me.

ICDP
11-15-2004, 05:03 PM
If anyone wants a trak file of a F4U1D speed test I can easily provide it.

Tested under the following conditions.

Crimea map.

50% fuel, default ammo. Climb from 7500m to 9200m. Full power + WEP and 120% mixture. Full difficulty used (apart from no cockpit to take TAS readings).

Speed attained 735kph (456mph) - this is almost 30mph faster than the listed F4U1 top speed and over 3000m higher than the rated top speed altitude.

P.S at no time did the engine overheat during the test.

ICDP
11-15-2004, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LuftLuver:
Great initial post!

I find the F4U vs A6M fights to be some of the most realistic of the entire sim. What happens meshes very nicely with historical accounts.

In contrast, the Ki84 is a joke. The Ki84 is exactly like the first Hurricane release. Anti-gravity plane deluxe. No wonder the axis players continually attempt to sweep this issue under the carpeting. They want to maintain this cheat for every last moment possible.

I'm happy to say that I have only gone down once to a zero in PF since its release and he took me while I was sleeping. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Otherwise, upwards of 25 have fallen to my gull wing beauty. Seems right on the money to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find it funny that people like you are very quick to bash the Ki84 uberness, an opinion I mostly share BTW. Yet you have the gaul to claim that the F4U is "right on the money" (your quote). Are you happy that the F4U can reach 456mph at 9200m, do you overlook the fact that it can climb some 20-30% faster than it could historically? (see this thread).

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=3791024932

How hypocritical can some people be that they will turn a blind eye to obvious performance errors that suit them but cry foul when it doesn't. Are you that biased that you will accept a Corsair that can climb much better than it should, can fly much faster than it should and at much higher altitudes than it should?

The F4U is one of my favoutite aircraft, I was looking forward to flying it in PF. Instead I find myslef not flying it because it is obviously way overmodelled.

It has very tame stall and spin characterisitcs (completely contradicts the real aircraft).

It can climb faster than it should by a large margin, it should be very close to Fw190A5 climbrate according to official USN tests (see the chart posted by Col. Kurts on the first page of the above mentioned thread).

It reach 456mph at 9200m !!!! way overmodelled in top speed.

So frankly, no it isn't "right on the money" it is way overmodelled according to real test documents and real performance data.

Sorry if this seems like a personal attack but I hate to see obviously biased opinions being promoted as some sort of fact.

S!

MK2aw
11-15-2004, 05:36 PM
One of the few post I have seen lately that can actually teach something to the veterans. Your number 4 is a great tip. I can't wait to try it out when the patch comes out (I am patiently waiting to play when the patch comes out....)

It sounds simple enough but not something that is instictive (climb when he runs...love it, in fact I am going to use it tonight when I fly a Mig 17 against Phantoms in Wings over Vietnam....)

Mk2aw

ICDP
11-15-2004, 05:58 PM
Some further testing, at 6066m I was able to achieve 711kph (listed top speed is 671kph) using the following conditions.

Crimea map, midday.

F4U-1A

50% fuel, default ammo. Climb from 5000m to 6066m (approx). Full power + WEP and 120% mixture, supercharger setting 2, full difficulty used (apart from no cockpit to take TAS readings).

It seems that when compared to widely available data the F4U is overmodelled in speed by a fair margin, espcially at high altitude.

These tests are very easy to duplicate in QMB. Not even the most ardent F4U fans can claim that these numbers are in any way close to real F4U1 performance figures.

RedDeth
11-16-2004, 01:06 AM
georgio you dont want to play the climbing game against a corsair. if you keep climbing while he flys away and climbs youll end up in the corsair kill zone. at 9k your plane will be a flounder and unable to dive away also. unable to climb fast unable to get a shot off. never climb a zero with a corsair unless your on the corsairs tail very close and can get shots on him.

you wont find any zero wingmen up high either. your only safety is staying in clouds t and b ing waiting for your ki84 reinforcements to bail you out.

zeros cannot fight corsairs. unless the corsair chooses to give up every advantage he has by slowing down to turn tightly.

ICDP
11-16-2004, 02:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
georgio you dont want to play the climbing game against a corsair. if you keep climbing while he flys away and climbs youll end up in the corsair kill zone. at 9k your plane will be a flounder and unable to dive away also. unable to climb fast unable to get a shot off. never climb a zero with a corsair unless your on the corsairs tail very close and can get shots on him.

you wont find any zero wingmen up high either. your only safety is staying in clouds t and b ing waiting for your ki84 reinforcements to bail you out.

zeros cannot fight corsairs. unless the corsair chooses to give up every advantage he has by slowing down to turn tightly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, you keep quoting how great the Corsair is, you keep stating that if a Zero climbs to 9k it will be easy meat for the Corsair. It is not just the Zero, any fighter in the game will be easy meat for the UFO Corsair at high alt (contrary to a real WWII F4U1). You are aware that at higher altitude the Corsair was nowhere near as good in real life, the P51, P47 and Ta152 should have a big advantage. In PF it will easily outfly ALL aircraft at high altitude, even the P47, P51 and the Ta152. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that it is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overmodelled in ALL areas, you obvisouly want your UFO to remain untouched as you actually think it is "right on the money". I suppose your happy that the Corsiar is 40 (FORTY!!!!) mph too fast and that the Zero's are 20-25mph too slow.

Please tell me how a fighter can get faster the higher it goes over its optimum altitude?. At 6066m The real F4U1 was rated at 671kph, in PF it reaches 711kph (fastest piston engined fighter in the game at that alt). It gets even more UFO powers as it gets higher and you kick in stage 3 of the supercharger, at 9200m it is happily flying along at 735kph (456mph).

So please stop giving bad advice on how to fight an X-Wi ...sorry F4U1, it is not based on real data which dissqualifies anyone who flies it from giving advice. LOL the only thing missing from the F4U1 is a hole behind the cockpit for R2-D2.

P.S. Oleg has been informed of these errors, so at some stage it will have its superuberness removed. You self proclaimed Corsair aces will have to rely on skill to win (if you have it), you cant rely on your "not so secret" UFO technology.

At least acknowledge that something is wrong with the F4U, test for yourself in QMB (use 120% mixture) or you will forever be labelled as a biased whiner.

WUAF_Badsight
11-16-2004, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Why let it go? The Corsair is given very generous turn and climb rates in the FB model. The Ki-84 is also modeled in a similar fassion. So, the Japanese have one plane that's not a piece of cake to shoot down and it gets whined at.

Here's another translation of the uber Ki-84 whine:

"Oleg the Ki-84 is overmodeled becasue I can't shoot them down in my Corsair as easily as Ben Alfleck shot down Zeros in the movie Pearl Harbor. I want to be the online Ben Akleck."

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Jeez, its great to have one plane you can fly the F4U against and not feel like your cheating. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
WORD !

WUAF_Badsight
11-16-2004, 02:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ICDP:
How hypocritical can some people be that they will turn a blind eye to obvious performance errors that suit them but cry foul when it doesn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
but its LuftLuver

what else do you expect from him . . . .

WUAF_Badsight
11-16-2004, 02:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
8. repeat, rinse, and wipe the zeros engine oil off your windshield as a properly flown corsair will never be shot down by a properly flown zero. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
exactly

ICDP
11-16-2004, 02:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ICDP:
How hypocritical can some people be that they will turn a blind eye to obvious performance errors that suit them but cry foul when it doesn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
but its LuftLuver

what else do you expect from him . . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aah... I am new here and was naive enough to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for the heads-up Badsight, I will stop trying to have a rational debate with the guy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DIRTY-MAC
11-16-2004, 03:44 AM
Isnt it said that the Corsair will be toned down
both in handling and speed,
The Zeros will get higher top speed
but I think it is just the early ones that will get it
dangerous,
By the way I dont think the Corsair is frightening, not at all,
their easy meat

nakamura_kenji
11-16-2004, 06:13 AM
I agree corsair hard opponent but it possible i managed kills in ki43 against corsair online even poor amarment.

I find ditch last tactic that sometimes work got nothing else, play dead, throw plane in to spin ^_^ hopefully he fall it for and think you go down not follow, need altitude though to recover but work twice for me where otherwise i die if not this do

georgeo76
11-16-2004, 07:00 AM
Yea RedDeath @ 9K the F4U owns anything, but we all know DF rarely get that high. I usually cruse @ 4K in DF while looking for bandits and almost always find myself comfortably above the compitition.

Yes Climbing dose work. It works becuase the F4U cannot see very well what your doing when he turns tail and runs (the most popular tactic by far). It works because the Zero climbs very well. It works becuse for the corsair to re-engage, he must speed some smash to get up to you (180degree turn plus the climb). I understand that if the corsair extends w/ a shallow climb he can negate any advantage this manuver affords the Zero. But @ least the zero is @ co-alt when the F4U turns around and not scooting atop the waves.

The main reason I brought up the climbing tactic is because I see zeros online trying to follow the corsair, often diving in a futal attempt to catch up.

I find it extreemly easy to get a hight advantage over a corsair becuse @ the first sign of trouble they dive away. Once I have an advantage of 1K, the F4U cannot touch me. If he tries to climb up to me, I've got him right were I want him.

Now I know what your going to say. "A good F4U pilot won't fall for your tricks, and won't do the stupid stuff you've mentiond". Fair enough. I'm not talking about the ideal corsair pilot, I'm talking about the pilot I meet online. Yes, proper energy tactics should keep the F4U out of the Zero's gunsight. But most pilots will abandon advantage @ the first sign of frustration, impatience, or the illusion of an easy kill.

Biloxi72
11-16-2004, 07:32 AM
I think the initial post is still great and his tactics will work if the corsair pilot does not follow his rules. Yes the corsair can turn with a zero for a few seconds if the speed is not allowed to drop to low as to allow thecorsair to keep its advantage. Yet Geo has stated that his tactics are against pilots who get greedy and try and turn fight a zero.

As for the Ki84 i read the plane was that good in design, this game shows it. It also has been toned down since its inital release. Before it would just take as much punishment as a Jug. Now it is way more weaker and with good shooting you can cripple it or destroy it realtively quick. I also agree it is a good counter to the US mid war planes. Dont forget the next evolution for the corsair was the F4u-4 which arrived in force in Early 1945. That plane could hanle any japanese plane available at that time. The ki84 should be able to have an edge over the corsair because it was designed to counter this and other mid war planes.

I love these tactics please gentlemen give out more tips I really am learning a lot on these planes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

mortoma
11-16-2004, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeOs.K-Ande:
@BSS_Vidar:Why is the KI-84 a joke? Can you explain thank you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think he means that he thinks the KI-84 FM is a bit on the optimistic side. I can't really speak for him but that's what I gather. I would have to agree with him if this is the case. I mean come on, was the KI-84 really such a super weapon? I don't have any stats on it but I'd think that if it was in RL as it is in this sim, it would be much more well known than it is. Anyting I've read about them seems to suggest that the American pilots really didn't have that much trouble with them. I don't know, I have to be suspicious about an aircraft that is without flaw as a fighter and performs perfectly, and is nearly unbeatable.

p1ngu666
11-16-2004, 09:08 AM
corsair can turn with a zero at normal speeds atm :|

japanease have only 1 late war fighter, ki84... rest are really no better than eariler ones, or only a smidge..

corsair more stable than last zeros imo.

the best zeros, are early ones 21 and land version, and 5 series, 5b being the nippyest. 5c gives higher top speed and more guns and protection, but its accel much slower, more stally etc. corsair and hellcats will easily out manover it...

62 maybe better than 63, i dont know tho :\/

zero cant pass 300mph sl with any version either :\

p1ngu666
11-16-2004, 09:10 AM
oh, and elivator stiffen up at speed easily, not sure if thats correct. alirons did, but not sure about elivator. they are also smaller than american elivators, so should be better at highspeed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

darkhorizon11
11-16-2004, 10:34 AM
Yeah I saw this coming a mile away before PF was released. People would complain how awesome the F4U is and how it can shred Zeros.

The truth though is that you can still get the best of an F4U with a Zero if you exploit his weakness.

Never get into a contest where you have to out run, catch up, out climb, or out dive him, you'll never win. Stay below 9000 he'll or dominate you. Force him to turn and try to avoid the deck. If you can down to low where you can't escape he'll simply outclimb you and then dive back down and you won't be able to catch him.

More often when I fly the F4U this is how I wreak havoc. Luckily Zeros have about the same amount of armor as the fuel tank on the old Ford Pintos. All ye need no is get in close, don't waste pot shots at him when you can wait a few extra seconds, even if your going to blow by him in some cases a round in the right place (not even the cockpit) will do him in.

The other day I was flying against some rookies in QMB and I felt like I was single handed dismantling the IJN. Eight Zero kills, my new record. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

dragonhart38
11-16-2004, 11:13 AM
Flying the Corsair. If you have a Zero on your six you can execute a steep dive. He won't be able to stay with you and will typically peel off banking left or right. What I have found effective in some situations is while diving away and getting good distance from the zero I wait for him to turn in a certain direction. When he commits I haul back on the stick and go into a steep climbing turn in his direction with full WEP. No while that zero can climb I can sometimes easily catch him as I have a lot of energy I can use. Come up from behind and below quickly and hose him with my 6 50's. If I don't get him on the first pass I can roll over, dive away and try it again.

RedDeth
11-16-2004, 11:22 AM
ICDPP you are seriously deranged dude. im not arguing whether corsair is modelled to the acutal plane that flew in ww2. im discussing with georgeo about how the corsair dominates in all categories except turn rate against a zero. were discussing tactics about a game we play. not about real life statistics which btw have nothing to do with half the planes in this game.

ICDPP if your only complaint is how the corsair isnt correct speed above 9k then i say OLEG did a fantastic job. if that irritates you then i have done my job .

now go troll somewhere else ICDeadpeople.

p.s. corsairs and jugs were able to far exceed their RATED top speeds btw. the mechanics could and did regularly hot rod up jugs AND corsairs to speeds far in excess of what is the minimal rated for these birds. so yes a corsair could do the speeds irl that it is capable of here.

ICDP
11-16-2004, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
ICDPP you are seriously deranged dude. im not arguing whether corsair is modelled to the acutal plane that flew in ww2. im discussing with georgeo about how the corsair dominates in all categories except turn rate against a zero. were discussing tactics about a game we play. not about real life statistics which btw have nothing to do with half the planes in this game.

ICDPP if your only complaint is how the corsair isnt correct speed above 9k then i say OLEG did a fantastic job. if that irritates you then i have done my job .

now go troll somewhere else ICDeadpeople.

p.s. corsairs and jugs were able to far exceed their RATED top speeds btw. the mechanics could and did regularly hot rod up jugs AND corsairs to speeds far in excess of what is the minimal rated for these birds. so yes a corsair could do the speeds irl that it is capable of here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, you keep saying it dominates above 9k not me, I also showed how it is 40kph faster than it should be at its rated altitude. The fact is it should NOT dominate in climb, it didn't have the stellar climbrate that it does in PF. So all your BS talk of using its great climbrate are bogus because IT SHOULDN'T HAVE A GREAT CLIMBRATE.

You are obviously a moronic biased corsair fanboy, you hate the fact that only noobs would dare to fly the plane and state "it seems right on the money". You complain about the Ki84 but the Ki84 was never EVER as overmodelled as the F4U1 is in PF.

EVERY SINGE POINT YOU HAVE MADE REGARDING TACTICS IN THE F4UFO IS INVALID AS IT IS WAY OVERMODELLED.

RedDeth
11-16-2004, 01:10 PM
icdp i am not saying corsair has a great climb rate. it doesnt.k4 has good climb. and hf spit. mistake number one

i am not a corsair fanboy. i like the k4,spit9,jug, stang.but i know the corsair is better than the zero IN this game and in real life. mistake number two.

i dont complain the ki84 is overmodelled. i believe the exact opposite. ki84 is accurately modelled to real life. except above 6k altitude where performance should drop off. but in dogfights it should dominate. mistake number three.

mistake number four is ASSuming im discussing real life attributes of planes. im not. i thought i spelled that out but here goes again. i am discussing a game. and facets of a GAME with another gamer. i am not engaging in mindless dialogue about how fast a real life corsair is at 9000 meters.let me repeat this. i am NOT discussing any facet of any real plane. i am discussing tactics in winning a game called pacific fighters. i could care less what real life statistics are as they wont change the game one iota. if you cant change it then dont dwell on it.

mistake number five for you is getting into an arguement with anyone in this forum as you seem to have much less information than any poster ive yet seen. in fact i will make a bold statement.

YOU HATE CORSAIRS. if you dont then you must be manic depressive? i dont know. have a nice day

ICDP
11-16-2004, 01:40 PM
Nope, I don't hate Corsairs but I do hate morons like you.

Don't have a nice day

ruxtmp
11-16-2004, 01:43 PM
Dragonhart38
Off topic but my son wants one of those P-51s you have in your sig for Christmas. Where do you purchase them from?

LilHorse
11-16-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
mistake number four is ASSuming im discussing real life attributes of planes. im not. i thought i spelled that out but here goes again. i am discussing a game. and facets of a GAME with another gamer. i am not engaging in mindless dialogue about how fast a real life corsair is at 9000 meters.let me repeat this. i am NOT discussing any facet of any real plane. i am discussing tactics in winning a game called pacific fighters. i could care less what real life statistics are as they wont change the game one iota. if you cant change it then dont dwell on it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not gonna take either side of this debate. But I will say this about the above part of your post; real life statistics ARE supposed to matter here. Because this is supposed to be a SIM not merely a game. And yes, I realize that your PC cannot truly deliver the RL experiance, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I know. But insofar as the present day PC is capable it is supposed to faithfully reproduce the actual aircraft's performance capabilities.

If this merely becomes a matter of gamers discussing facets of a game then why bother even making them look like the aircraft they're supposed to be? Why not just have Crimson Skies and be done with it.

The fact is the real life statistics DO change this sim (roll rate for the P-47 anyone?). This information is supposed to have relevence to the FM and those who make an informed case as to why something should be changed are, thankfully, listened to by 1C.

Korolov
11-16-2004, 01:52 PM
I was researching the Zeke the other night and found some interesting info, thought I'd share:

From "Complete Book of Fighters" By William Green and Gordon Swanborough

About the A6M3, which should have a tailhook and be otherwise identicle to the A6M2-21, but with a different engine:

"With the 68th Reisen, manually-folded wingtips were introduced, 740 with this feature being built as Model 21s. the two sub-types being similar in other respects and carrying an armanent of two 20mm and two 7,7mm guns. A further development, the A6M3 flown in June 1941, discarded the folding wingtips, thus reducing wing span by 3ft 3.3 in (1m), and adopted the Sakae 21 engine providing 1,130hp for take-off. A total of 343 was build as Model 32s before the folding wingtips were reinstated, production continuing as the Model 22, and, with long barreled cannon, as the Model 22-ko, a further 560 being build between autumn 1942 and summer 1943."

Additionally, info on the A6M5 series:

"This was represented by the A6M5, or Type 0 Carrier Fighter Model 52, which flew in the summer of 1943. Based essentially on the A6M3 with a similar Sakae 21 engine, the A6M5 differed primarily in having thrust-augmentation exaust stacks and a revised wing with heavier-guage skin and new, non-folding, tips. The A6M5-ko [A6M5a], deliveries of which began in March 1944, featured belt- rather than drum-feed cannon and still heavier guage wing skinning. Built in parallel was the A6M5-Otsu [A6M5b] with armor-glass, automatic fire extinguishers and a 13,2mm gun in place of one of the two 7,7mm weapons. The A6M5-Hei [A6M5c] omitted the remaining 7,7mm gun, but had two additional 13,2mm weapons mounted in the wings (increasing total armanent to three 13,2mm and two 20mm guns), armor protection for the pilot and an additional self-sealing tank behind the pilot. The A6M5-Hei flew in November 1944, but only 93 were build. One example was build wuth a Sakae 31-Ko engine with water=methanol injection and self-sealing wing tanks as the A6M6-Hei, and the final production model of the Rei-sen was the A6M7, or Model 63. This also employed the Sakae 31 with water-methanol injection, the five-gun armanent of the A6M5-Hei and some structural strengthening in order to carry a 551lb (250kg) bomb. The A6M7 flew in May 1945, series production commencing the same month."

dragonhart38
11-16-2004, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ruxtmp:
Dragonhart38
Off topic but my son wants one of those P-51s you have in your sig for Christmas. Where do you purchase them from? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found the picture on the web but I checked into it further and see links below. Somewhat in keeping with the content of this post, they also plan to do a corsair.
Cheers!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19022&item=3165823550

http://www.goodtimesarehereagain.com/

Saburo_0
11-16-2004, 04:54 PM
Georgo76 & Korolov, Very good reading, thanks for sharing. Hard to keep threads on about Japanese planes on topic, too bad. But your posts have been copied/pasted & saved. good reading, keep it up please!

Any advice about cowl flap settings or engine management would be appreciated.

Nakamura Kenji, ah a Hayabusa pilot! S! I hope we get the Ki-43 II & III someday. and the Ki-44. I'm quickly becoming a big Nakajima fan. They built some great aircraft.

Mortoma, just because you never heard of the ki-84 doesn't mean it wasn't a great plane.

Korolov
11-16-2004, 05:09 PM
Regarding the radiator and engine management, for early models like the A6M2 and A6M3, leaving the radiator full open and flying at 80% throttle is enough for most situations. You can fly at 97-100%, but generally I like to keep the engine cool for when I need it. The A6M5s and later seem plenty fine running with full open radiator and combat power with little trouble.

Since they really can't get anywhere fast, I rarely bother to close the radiator and prefer instead maximum cooling.

gates123
11-16-2004, 05:23 PM
By the time the KI-84 hit the scene the japs didnt have too many good pilots left (sound familiar). Its a great plane that matches well with late war US crates. I can't stand people that complain about their beloved gull wings getting spanked by Ki's and then resort to it being overmodeled with of course nothing to back up their claim. Get in one or get over it! Too the thread starter...good post.

Korolov
11-16-2004, 05:29 PM
I don't see the big deal over the Ki-84 myself. The Hellcat pounds it up, down, left and right in just about every regime availible. Throw in the fact that the Ki-84 will put you into a coma if you even think about making a turn at moderate speeds, and I prefer one of the late-war A6Ms over the Ki-84.

Saburo_0
11-16-2004, 08:14 PM
having just discovered how fun tracks can be, I wonder if anyone wouldpost one or be willing to e-mail me one ?

RedDeth
11-16-2004, 09:45 PM
gates123 regarding the fact near wars end there werent many jap pilots left nor german...there was a reason for this. american and british pilots shot most of them down.

in american and british planes . p.s. everyone the planes the japs and germans were flying that were shot down all war by americans and british were actually japanese and german planes. yep.... all those uber duber planes of the axis... LOST. shot down...made mincemeat by american and british planes.


have a wonderful evening

Charos
11-16-2004, 09:58 PM
RedDeth I think those Russian's in Russian Built planes may have shot a few down as well.