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cueceleches
01-10-2005, 04:25 AM
Hi!

In the Western Front, many Bf 110 night fighters were fitted with a weapon/tactic called "Schr├┬Ąge M├╝sik". This consisted on installing a 20mm cannon in the aft part of the aircraft, for the rear gunner/radar operator. This gun pointed upwards.
The tactic was to slip under the bomber undetected and fire the gun from 50-70m between two engines of a wing. A few rounds were suffcient to make the bomber burst in flames and explode. Most of the crews who survived an attack of this kind never knew what hit them, believing it was a Flak round.
Bomber Command suffered many losses to this clever tactic.

My question is if anyone knows if Schr├┬Ąge M├╝sik was also used in the Eastern Front against the Pe 8s?? IÔ┬┤ve been seeking info in the web about the subject but found no info...

Thanks a lot!

cueceleches
01-10-2005, 04:25 AM
Hi!

In the Western Front, many Bf 110 night fighters were fitted with a weapon/tactic called "Schr├┬Ąge M├╝sik". This consisted on installing a 20mm cannon in the aft part of the aircraft, for the rear gunner/radar operator. This gun pointed upwards.
The tactic was to slip under the bomber undetected and fire the gun from 50-70m between two engines of a wing. A few rounds were suffcient to make the bomber burst in flames and explode. Most of the crews who survived an attack of this kind never knew what hit them, believing it was a Flak round.
Bomber Command suffered many losses to this clever tactic.

My question is if anyone knows if Schr├┬Ąge M├╝sik was also used in the Eastern Front against the Pe 8s?? IÔ┬┤ve been seeking info in the web about the subject but found no info...

Thanks a lot!

Heavy_Weather
01-10-2005, 06:23 AM
yeah i've seen footage of this on the History channel, dont know if they flew in the East though. good question.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
01-10-2005, 06:35 AM
im pretty sure there wernt that much nightfighters if at all on the eastern front ,simply because the VVS didnt do night bomber raids or had heavy bombers unlike what happend on the western front where there was a daily bomber day/night campaign going on thus no need for night equiped 110s

but pls feel free to correct me if im wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jeroen_R90S
01-10-2005, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cueceleches:
This consisted on installing a 20mm cannon in the aft part of the aircraft, for the rear gunner/radar operator. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although I can't answer your question, AFAIK at least He 219s were fitted with both a forward and an upward firing Revi so the pilot could aim his Musik. I don't know if this was also the case with other planes like the Bf 110 and Ju 88, though.

Jeroen

HotelBushranger
01-10-2005, 08:03 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Glad you offered lol.

The Polikarpov Po-2 (U-2VS) was used in light bombing attacks on aide camps, stores, etc.
Obviously not the massed bomber campaigns seen in the ETO, but hey, you said 'night bomber raids', didn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
01-10-2005, 08:50 AM
the russians did to raids, but not to the same degree as raf i think
raf sent or could send 100's of aircraft a night over

F19_Olli72
01-10-2005, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
im pretty sure there wernt that much nightfighters if at all on the eastern front ,simply because the VVS didnt do night bomber raids or had heavy bombers unlike what happend on the western front where there was a daily bomber day/night campaign going on thus no need for night equiped 110s

but pls feel free to correct me if im wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there was at least one german nightfighterunit in Finland.

Edit: seems there was a unit of Bf110s and 109s at Malmi.

From interview with V.Pokela:
"
-I suppose you didn't do much night flying?

Then in May I flew at night, right through a big swarm. And before I could bring myself around, it was gone. Nowhere to be seen.

-A bomber swarm?

Yes.

-Impossible to find too, I suppose?

Yes.

-Except for these, the Finns didn't do much actual night missions?

No, and they didn't get into the night fighter activity either.

-There were 110's and 109's from a German night flying squadron?

Yes, at Malmi airbase. "

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-PokelaEnglish.html

JG53Frankyboy
01-10-2005, 09:44 AM
some sidenotes

-the Bf110G-4 (the nightfighter version of the Bf110G) used 2 MG-FF as "Schr├┬Ąge Musik".

- the Po-2(U-2) night hunter can be found here
http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugzeuge/focke-wulf/fw189.htm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

- less than 80 Pe-8 were ever build !

- the nightfighter pilots didnt like the MK108. this weapon made to muche dammage , and at the short firing ranges at night this caused damage on the own plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KarayaEine
01-10-2005, 09:50 AM
I don't think the VVS had truly dedicated night fighters like the British had. The U-2 raids they flew at night (AKA the Night Witches) were more nuisance type to disrupt morale and sleep rather than to effect any tactital or strategic advantage.

Schrage Musik was really developed to take down British night bombers, like the Lanc.

Johann

Whatsmypassword
01-10-2005, 10:09 AM
I remember Kozhedub wrote in his memoirs how he examined the air field in Eastern Germany full of abandoned Bf-110s (with radars) in late 1944 or early 1945.

Soviet night bombers

U-2 is quite often mentioned in the memoirs of German soldiers. Just imagine thousands of U-2s hanging over the Eastern front every night and making several sorties a night. They switched off the engines before the attack ... the silence ... and ... bo-oo-om .... a dozen soldiers are dead. U-2 was not less a dealy aircraft than Il-2, used efficiently and was actually much feared.

Obviously, Bf-110 even with radar was useless against U-2s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://militera.lib.ru/h/timohovich/11.jpg

Heavy_Weather
01-10-2005, 10:37 AM
the Russians indeed fly night missions over Finland using the Pe-8. dont know if 110's seen action there though.

cueceleches
01-10-2005, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
the russians did to raids, but not to the same degree as raf i think
raf sent or could send 100's of aircraft a night over <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact, the RAF put on the night of 30/31 march 1944 785 bombers in the air, most of them Lancasters and also Halifaxes. It was the Nuremberg raid. The bomber stream once over Germany was huge. Sitting ducks for the night fighters, as it was a clear night with half moon and no clouds nor mist. A true tactical disaster for Bomber Command.

p1ngu666
01-10-2005, 11:14 AM
yep, in may ways they where lucky that that didnt happen more often :\ battle of berlin was the worst tho, very heavy losses, imo harris had gone too far with that, and his obsession with destroying cities :|

in april 43 there was 13 raids involving lancasters, only 3 of those raids had less than 200 aircraft (109,178,160)

july 44, 26 dates listed, couple have multiple targets tho and it only shows ops in which more than 50 lancs flew

p1ngu666
01-10-2005, 11:24 AM
oh id say the average is around high 200's low 300's per op/night.
and a lancasters bombload could be 2x as effective as a b17's (bigger more varied