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LLv34_Stafroty
03-22-2005, 02:43 PM
how many "hit hit points" there is in plane? like in wing, i assume there is aileron, wingtip and from center to root section, which all have their own DM. so every part can take certain numbers of hits/damage, like some 20 hits from .50cal or 5 hits from 20mm. but, isnt that low hit area number bit too low. i mean, when i hit wing with high caliber cannon with AP round, it tears wing off always, no matter if i shoot that round on wing at high angle, fom above, in real, it should make only hole in wing, if not hit anything really critical. now it tears wing. but, what if wings have much more those hit sections which all of them can take their own amount of damage before there is hole left or such, so, wings would not snap off so easily from gunfire.

it would help in bit of issues with DM, like HE damage, it would allow HE rounds to damage bigger amount of those hit boxed while AP rounds damages only one hit box. depends of course the angle where the hit comes.

like now some said that every part has its armor value and strengt value, strengt goes down from every hit it takes, damage amount differs from ammo/gun/range is used. He rounds doesnt much care about the range while other rouds do. so, armor value is subracted from ammo penetration value, it armor is more than penetration value, round doesnt go any further, if it is bigger, it continues to next section in wing.
(more about ammo damage value and hit box strenght value, if AP style of round is used, it should not be able to disable hit box totally, cos, it makes only a hole in it, so, some damage only while He is bit different style of damaeg, no clean hole, rippin it apart, but no much penetration capability..)
so anyway, hard to explain but i hope some of u get the idea what i mean?? do you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


if you think you get the idea, tell me what you guys think about it?

Fennec_P
03-22-2005, 05:28 PM
I don't think it is that simple, where each part has 'hit points'. Maybe in original IL-2, but not now. Well, of course hit points are still there, but for many more objects than just the main sections; lots of internal components.

For example, in wings. There are actual hitboxes for the spars. Hitting the spars will make the wings come off, but hitting the wings themselves will not. Hitting the main wing will damage it, with the consequent performance hit, but to knock it off, you must strike the structural members.

The same is true for the fuselage. It you look in old development updates, you can see pictures of the damage model, and fuselage struts are present.

This is why sometimes a few hits can knock off a wing or fuselage, and other times, it takes many more.

There are differences between AP and HE shells modelled. AP damages only what is struck, but HE affects a wide area (if you use arcade mode, you will see new 'fragements' spawned from where the HE shell explodes, damaging all around it).

For example, one time I watched in arcade mode a HE MK108 hitting the enemy cockpit, explode on the control panel, and kill the pilot with fragments.

And high caliber AP round doesn't always blow things off. I have seen many times the shell hit the target, and go through, not hitting anything important. Like, hitting the enemy with 37mm AP in a non-critical spot, like trailing edge of the wing. It doesn't do anything. Like, in the Stuka.

Then sometimes I hit with a few 50cal and, wing folds off, because I hit the right part. Like, one time, shot off bf-190 wing with a single M2 bullet, shooting from the front at high closure. Didn't believe it until I checked user STAT.

You can even see the bullet go through, if you shoot at a plane that is on the ground. Hit the wing or something, and you will see the bullet kick up dirt when it hits the ground under it.

The distance that the round penetrates seems to be related to the KE of the bullet on impact, and some toughness value (plus the effects of any armoring elements in the bullet path. For example, the machine guns on the P-38 protect the pilot by stopping bullets).

In any case, the DM seems to incorporate a lot of interstnig elements already. I'm looking forward to BoB, which Oleg says will have even more, like structural damage reducing load limits and so forth. And more hit locations, like coolant radiators, more engine parts, and I think he even said you can puncture tires.

Werre_Fsck
03-22-2005, 10:58 PM
What I think of it...

no matter what the beautiful theory behind the DM is, it's porked beyond recognition.

All planes are too tough (making realistic tactics on german side impossible with anything but those horrible 108 mortars).
LaGG's are WAY too tough (making realistic '41 campaigns impossible).
Some planes have ahistorical weak spots.

Patch 4.0 won't do much difference unless they look into DM's in general (and fix the **** MG-151/20).

LLv34_Stafroty
03-23-2005, 12:01 AM
and somehow, it looks and feels like AP rounds always release all the KE they are keeping, to the part they hit.

AndyHigh
03-23-2005, 02:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Then sometimes I hit with a few 50cal and, wing folds off, because I hit the right part. Like, one time, shot off bf-190 wing with a single M2 bullet, shooting from the front at high closure. Didn't believe it until I checked user STAT.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,
So it was bf-109, right? Which part of the wing did you hit? Doesn't sound very realistic to me. There's seem to be this myth around that 109 was made of paper. Cooler maybe, but the fe. fuselage was able to stand even a 40mm AA hit and plane could still land with the damage.

I wouldn't say that DM is overall too weak, depends of the part and the plane. Some VVS fighters and many medium sized bombers are really too tough. B-25 needs almost entire ammoload of 109's 20mm nose cannon, and it can sometimes fly for ages while burning.

If fighters are generally made weaker and bomber gunnery isn't made any harder , it would make attacking bombers even more suicidal than its now. I watched yesterday how three attacking fighters were downed by single lightly armed bomber (only one or two 7.9mm MGs). They can hit you at impossible ranges, say over 700m while you're flying at 3-4 a clock high/low. In RL it was more of an exception to able down attacker with such arms even in close range, now in this game its a rule that gunners will hit you.

tigertalon
03-23-2005, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Werre_Fsck:
All planes are too tough (making realistic tactics on german side impossible with anything but those horrible 108 mortars).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of best statements I have read lately on these forums. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LeadSpitter_
03-23-2005, 07:59 AM
comeon werre german dms are some of the toughest in game.

the early 109s e f g2 take light hits but the g6 to k4 take massive hits same with 190s and ta152s. Same with the stuka bf110 condor ju88 etc Nothing compairs to the 190 manuverability high speed making them the best props in game always able to kill "explode any planes bomber twin engine or single engine in one burst" and have the ability to always bnz and out run all enemy ac with exception of the p80.

then planes like the 190 you guys say they flame to easy but the tail fire instantly goes out immediately after 3-4 seconds of fire under .20 range.

Look at the me262 you can lite up both engines and they automatically go out with enough power to keep top speed with no effect.

Just wait and see the new patch how dms fm and ballistics are.

Why dont you guys use your knowlegde for ac complaining about allied acs not matching up to thier 100 fuel fully armed data charts, half the allied planes done even come close to historical data with ingame 25 fuel and IAS TAS speed conversion.

I always felt all weapons are much to weak online but ping effects this game so much unlike other games especially online and people from around the world pinging as high as 300-500.

I find in servers I ping 30-40ms its almost exactly the same as weapons strenght as offline play which are pretty **** effective.

Thats why i dont really fly in CHNDOF, fb's grennadich, cz ah dedicated, ross games and other overseas servers because planes take almost triple damage or more, and hits on my screen are really missing and i dont ping to bad there 150-160ms.

Then coops like crazyivans which pings spike so drastically 40-500ms the server runs perfectly smooth which i dont get and shots are equal to offline effectiveness. I think thats a problem with his isp tho. Im only about 3hrs away from his house in nj.

The other thing i find off is the hitbox size of control cables, looking with arcademode=1 one wing hit usually cause rudder elevator and aileron cables snapped ad we can completely fly with rudder alone and land fine. I think they should change the cable hit boxes to the control surface areas so when a rudder aileron or rudder is shot off the plane then cables should be snapped.

Also the instant explosions need to be a rare occurance in one pass. Even 2 7.62mm on the 109s or ki43s have the ability to explode the p40 p51 spit and hurricane in 1 burst of fire to the engine, engine fire then instant explosions in less then 3 seconds.

We did tests on engine fires and explosions the russian planes last for about 10-15 seconds and can be put out 8 seconds in a dive without killing pilot no oil and no broken gunsites.

The 109 lasts 5 seconds on fire and can be put out and still able to aim and fight afterwards with oilspash but is very difficult to aim.

the ki61 is worst of all even one tail hit will cause a completely blinding oil splash in which you cant aim,

japanese brit and american have the worst oil splashes in game then german 109s and russian have no oilsplash over gunsite giving such a huge advantage along with their dms and long range lazer accurate cannons past .60 range

Siwarrior
03-23-2005, 03:28 PM
Hi
I don't know much about guns but what is wrong with the Mg151/20?

carguy_
03-23-2005, 03:37 PM
Funny you lose so much time to post trash,Leadspitter.

The schemate of DM is somwhere in the old pre-FB development update screenies.

LeadSpitter_
03-24-2005, 06:27 AM
One mans trash is anothers gold, go take some tracks and watch them in 2x speed and the little timer is on the bottom right hand corner of the screen you can count right? Count engine fire time in slomo.

go make some other willi wombat names carkid and try harassing me. You couldnt even get a bronze medal in a special olympics il2 tournament.

btw whats trash if you read my post, prove me wrong with tracks rather then a insult which is not even funny.

carguy_
03-24-2005, 07:06 AM
Not only I think you post trash.You make up a theory,say you`ll prove it but next thing I see you have truble with doing it.

First thing I don`t participate in DF tournaments.My flying skills are worth nothing if I can`t contribute to accomplishing a mission that has other targets than killing the enemy.

Moreover I do not take the game seriously.It is just a game for me.Biggest $ I spent on it was the actual price of all those IL2 sequels.What?Do I need to prove myself,do I have anything to prove here to others?Pffft,I`m having fun.

PS.Have you heard of anything like 'onus probandi'?