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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:31 AM
Hello chaps-wonder if anyone can tell me what the best convergence settings are for the guns, i understand what it is-i just dont know exactly what a best all-round setting might be.
Also, I know that to make a tighter turn you decrease throttle ,but by how much?, i mean do you drop it completely
or just say 20% ?
thanks in advance for any help you can give me on this,

Cheers
Neil (GotNoWittyName)

Once more with feeling

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:31 AM
Hello chaps-wonder if anyone can tell me what the best convergence settings are for the guns, i understand what it is-i just dont know exactly what a best all-round setting might be.
Also, I know that to make a tighter turn you decrease throttle ,but by how much?, i mean do you drop it completely
or just say 20% ?
thanks in advance for any help you can give me on this,

Cheers
Neil (GotNoWittyName)

Once more with feeling

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 11:57 AM
I usually use a gun and cannon convergence of 250m. It gives you excellent firepower over reasonable range.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 12:33 PM
The question on turns really depends on your speed when entering the turn, and the stall characteristics of your mount, not the throttle setting.

One of the things I have found is nothing helps you in a dogfight more than altitude, speed and a lots of experience with your favorite plane.

One of the best technical answers to your question can be found in the book MS put out to accompany CFS2, which was written by Jeff Van West. He states that:

"To measure the effectiveness of a turn, we need to consider three items: load Factor, turn rate, and turn radius.

Load Factor is how many Gs the wing is experiencing in a turn. In a level turn the load factor goes up with angle of bank. In a level turn with 30 deg. angle of bank, the wing supports 15 percent more weight than when not turning, so the load factor is 1.15. At 60 degrees, the wing supports twice the weight of the airplane, so the load factor is 2. Any increase in bank causes the load factor to rise rapidly. A level turn at 70 degrees of bank has a load factor of 3.

Turn radius, which is the measure of the radius of the circle an airplane draws in the sky as it turns, is measured in yards or meters. The smaller the circle, the better the turn radius. When two planes pass and turn nose-to-nose, the one with the smaller turn radius gains angular advantage.

Turn Rate, which describes how quickly the airplane can change direction, is measured in degrees per second. An airplane with a turn rate of 20 degrees per second could turn 360 degrees, or a complete circle, in 18 seconds. When two airplanes pass and turn nose to tail, the airplane with the better turn radius will gain angular advantage.

For any given fighter, the best combination of high turn rate and low turn radius is acheived at that fighters cornering speed (Vc). You should memorize Vc for whichever plane you're flying..."

Jeff's book only deals with the planes that came with CFS2, but here is a representative example:

A6M2 Zero Vc=164 knots
A6M5 Zero Vc=186 knots
N1K2 George Vc=175 knots
Wildcat Vc=178 knots
Hellcat Vc=151 knots
Corsair Vc=219 knots
P-38 Vc=192 knots

Fly your favorite plane as much as possible (practice, practice, practice). Learn its flight characteristics and try to figure out it's Vc. When turning, try to match Vc to the maximum extent possible, and go easy on the controls. Pilot technique is a very big factor in turn performance, so try not to jerk the stick erratically, as it will drastically increase turbulence over the wing and may send you into a spin.

Hope this helps.

All the best, Don

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 12:53 PM
The convergence doesn't hurt the results much in a typical nose-mounted armament, but in wing-armed planes, both being too much closer than convergence distance, and being too far from it, will hurt your plane's ability to do maximum lethal damage in a given time.

Therefore, try to keep the convergence of wing-armed fighters to your most practical range of preference. I my case, I definately choose a convergence distance between 100~150m, both for cannons and machine guns. I hate spraying around.

However, in case of the slower wing-armed planes, such as the Brewster or the I-16, the chances are, you'll never get within 100m of any other plane in most cases. In those specific cases, you may want to set the conv. distance a little further out, maybe about 200m.

.....





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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 01:06 PM
Turning hard burns off energy, which is often a bad thing. If attacking, rather than close the throttle to acheive optimum turn rate, nose up, gain a little altitude then turn and regain your speed out of the turn. I use weapon convergence of 180m.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 01:23 PM
About turns..

What pacettid posted above is an excellent material overall, but it is very much theoretical and will not explain anything about practical management of turn speeds and radius - take due note that my comments are not intended for crticism, in the aspect that frankly, nobody can just adequately explain it with words.

In practical application, the turn performance of the plane is actually very highly influenced by throttle management - those who know how to manage their throttle, can easily out-turn an I-16 with a Bf109F-4, a Yak-3 with Fw190A, a Bf109 with a P-47 and etc etc.

In most theoretical analysis, turn fights are assumed to be flat turns, with no alt loss, situated at a single altitude and kept there - in those conditions, theoretically, a plane that has worse pure turn performance against the other can never win.

However, in reality, the turn fights vary in alt, speeds, and flight paths, and I don't think anyone can fully explain it for you to grasp with one post. So, for an example in the most common cases of a plane with worse turn performance out-turning a plane with better one:

Usually, a sustained turn fight at certain altitudes tend to become something that resembles two planes spiralling downwards in a turn, sort of like following the etchings on a screw. Why that happens is because, the two planes are each controlling their turn radius, and turn speeds, by descending down a spiralling path.

Even if a certain plane turns very good, and the other does not, at high speeds, there is rarely any practical difference in turn performance due to the fact that the inertia of circular movement, high G-loads, reduced elevator efficiency all works against a plane's turn. So, typically a plane with worse turn performance, if ever in danger of being exposed to a turn fight, seeks to raise the average fighting speeds by a lot. He will start turning, with the nose under the horizon, so his planes goes into a turning-dive(spiralling).

Let's imagine a Fw190D-9 that is jumped by a Yak-3 at higher altitudes. The Yak pilot is confident, in that he has an advantage in maneuverability, as well as advantage in energy. The D-9 goes into a spiralling dive, and the Yak-3 follows the D-9. Now, what happens is the D-9 has many options to control both his turn speed and turn radius.

If the Yak-3 follows the D-9 without paying attention to the throttle settings, the D-9, while in that spiralling situation, can cut throttle to idle, possibly with one or two notches of flaps, and what will happen is the D-9 will speed down, and his turn radius will instantly tighten.

In that moment, even though the Yak-3 has better turn radius than the D-9, he will be out-turned by the D-9 because his speed is too high. It is hard to explain, but because the speeds are high, the decrease in the speed will let the Fockewulf almost turn his nose instantly towards the tail of the Yak-3, while the turn radius of the Yak-3 keeps on widening, due to the pilot not paying attention to his throttle setting.

...

The above is but only one example how a worse turning plane can out-turn a better one in certain situations. In an actual turn fight, the nose pitch of the plane, angle of the bank, throttle settings, initial speede before entering a turn fight.. all these factors play a vital role - in truth, managing a good turn fight is actually every bit a difficult task to do as managing "E" - in fact, a turn fight is essentially just another type of 'E' fighting. There are many more examples how a turn can be managed, and I'm afraid there's no explaining it - you'll just have to figure it out through trial and error.



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Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 01:33 PM
i use a convergence setting of 200, this seems to work really well for me.

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 02:05 PM
Convergence is a personal thing.For me it really does depend on what aircraft I'm flying.For example if I'm in my usual mount a Hurribus Mk Ia, I will set the convergence at no more than 150 metres because of it's weak armament.Conversely (my big word of the day) if I'm in a well armed aircraft such as a FW 190 a5, I'll set the convergence to about 300 metres.
It's all a matter of finding the right convergence that suits your individual flying style the best.The advice I can give is experiment, you'll find the right range for you soon enough.

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In memory of 'The Few'
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Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 02:06 PM
Nice posts guys!

My convergence sttings change depending on the plane I'm flying & sometimes the mission. For example when flying the I16 tip 18 I have the 1st set of nose mounted mgs set to 300 meters (they are mounted close together so even witha aconvergence of 1000m they will be hit close to where I am aiming) & the wing mounted guns to 100 (they are only .30 caliber so you need to get close to do much damage.

I can use the nose guns for relatively long range shots at the cockpit & engine of turning 109s, while saving my ammo in the wing guns for when I can close with someone.

With planes like the P40 with wingmounted guns it's a good idea to set each group of guns to s slightly different convergence to have effective firepower over a range of distances. This is also historically accurate.

While many will advocate setting convergence to 100 m it is also possible to get kills at greater distances with aircraft like the 190 with a lot of firepower (using the mgs & wing root mounted cannon-not the outside guns.)

Happy Hunting!


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"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 03:17 PM
Wait? How do you set varying convergences for weapons? I only know how to set cannons, machineguns, and rockets. I haven't noticed an option which will allow me like on the P-40 to change each sets convergence.

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 04:14 PM
Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Wait? How do you set varying convergences for
- weapons? I only know how to set cannons,
- machineguns, and rockets. I haven't noticed an
- option which will allow me like on the P-40 to
- change each sets convergence.

I don't remember on P-40, but on P-47 the 8 MGs are switched by 2 groups of 4. The cannon button will fire the internal 4, while the MG button the external 4 (or viceversa?).
Thus, I believe you can set a different convergence on external and internal MGs, considering them "cannons" and "MGs" (or viceversa?) on the Plane configuration panel.

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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 04:22 PM
Guys-im truley grateful for the time and energy you took to explain this to me-its not been wasted, thankyou for the succinct way you all put it across. I see that I shall have to choose a favourite plane (ive been trying them all), I have an aversion to the yaks because everyone seems to fly them, but well see.....thanks ever so much again...mmm now off to experiment
All the best
Neil

Once more with feeling

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 04:53 PM
For Dog Fight convergence I use 200 meters for the MGs and 100 meters for the cannon(s).


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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:08 PM
For the plane I almost always fly which is the P-47 I use a convergance of 200. If I fly a plane that has cannons I use 275.
S!
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XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:13 PM
Maybe i'm wrong on the P40 but on the p47 where you have two sets of guns you can set the convergence for each i believve. (haven't tested come to think of it & at work now s....)

Also i think the mg convergence on the FW190A is for bothe the mgs & root mounted cannon which fire off the same button. The "cannon convergence" is for the wing guns only I think.
Anyone care to confirm or enlighten me on this ??

Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Wait? How do you set varying convergences for
- weapons? I only know how to set cannons,
- machineguns, and rockets. I haven't noticed an
- option which will allow me like on the P-40 to
- change each sets convergence.
-
-
-
-



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"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
09-04-2003, 05:17 PM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- For the plane I almost always fly which is the P-47
- I use a convergance of 200. If I fly a plane that
- has cannons I use 275.


In a plane without cannons the cannon setting is for the other set of MGs.
I still leave it at 200 MG and 100 cannon while in the P-47 because it gives me a good spread of fire.




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