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View Full Version : Please we need a Spitfire.



XyZspineZyX
06-01-2003, 04:02 AM
As you know the Russians recieved Spits on the Lend/Lease program.

XyZspineZyX
06-01-2003, 04:02 AM
As you know the Russians recieved Spits on the Lend/Lease program.

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 03:59 AM
I believe it's coming...when I cant say exactly.

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XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 04:11 AM
Noooo.... We need a Fokker D.XXI, the fins had them.



(so did the danes, but I won't use that as an argument, since it would categorise me as one of those wanting to fly and whine about what we had)

jk.

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 09:47 AM
I too, eagerly await the spit!

-"The only way to be sure, Is to load the full mag when playing russian roulette"-

-Unknown corpse-

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 11:40 AM
yes,spitfire is a good plane ,we need it in FB

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 11:44 AM
yes,we need spitffire,so much

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 12:29 PM
You really want the Spit? hmmmmm You know how crappy the Fw190 is (patch might fix this - crosses fingers in hope) Spit IX and tha A-5 were basically equals so this means the Spit will be crap as well.

I could not bare to fly such an abomination and an insult to such a famous a/c.

**** beware the charge of the rhinos ****

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/nutkins-clifftopchase2.jpg
http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/copic-finalmission2.jpg

RichardI
06-02-2003, 03:25 PM
So you want a spitfire?
You want it to be modelled correctly?
Not likely in this game IMO.
I'd rather have no Spit than have one that will be eaten alive by LAGG's and YAK's....

<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 03:27 PM
No, we need an I-15!

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 03:50 PM
all western planes will have their problems in this game...
they were better at high alts but here that doesn´t count....

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 05:50 PM
lol!

A spit coming in FB?
Spit Vs FW 190??

I would love to know how Oleg will get out of this one!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Do unto others before they do unto you"

Message Edited on 06/02/0304:50PM by Uberduper

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 05:57 PM
Uberduper wrote:
- lol!
-
- A spit coming in FB?
- Spit Vs FW 190??
-
- I would love to know how Oleg will get out of this
- one!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-

Yes, for sure./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

We will have to wait for the "new" FMs before making any comments though. Time will tell./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

**** beware the charge of the rhinos ****

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/nutkins-clifftopchase2.jpg
http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/copic-finalmission2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 06:29 PM
Spitfire was a very capable aircraft and will shine in FB. FW after it'll get its historical climb rate will be dangerous too.

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XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 06:41 PM
I really hope so!

I just have a feeling the spit will be a ufo and the FW190 will stay the same.

I just think that if the 190 was going to be changed it would have been in FB after IL2 orig.

Even if the performance of the 190 is fixed in the patch we will still be stuck with the poor visibility.

"Do unto others before they do unto you"

ZG77_Nagual
06-02-2003, 06:42 PM
Mkxiv clipped 3d model done - cockpit under way but have not heard from the creator 'fieval' in awhile. Stump for it in the il2center forums

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 06:43 PM
well, historically, the Spit was beter than the Ha, ha, hurri.
The last one is the UFO in FB...

The spit=> the new uberplane?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-02-2003, 07:01 PM
Uberduper wrote:
- I really hope so!
-
- I just have a feeling the spit will be a ufo and the
- FW190 will stay the same.



hmmm... i think youre right. it propably will take all the fun out of those historic battles.

this game is not historically accurate so we shouldnt expect too much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-03-2003, 02:17 AM
I have complained some in the past, but let's have a little faith. Maybe FW-190 will be improved after patch, I truly believe it will.

Another thing to keep in mind, and this is important, is that BnZ planes like the FW-190 were better in groups as opposed to one on one's. In groups speed becomes a huge advantage when you have a wingman that can chase down your pursurer, alone you must fly far enough away to turn around and simply do another head-on. This will be important to remember with P-51 as well. It won't be a great 1 vs 1 plane but in say 4 vs 4 it should be awesome. I think people would find planes like the FW-190 more effective if they flew with wingmen, and I don't think many people take this into consideration. That said, the 190 certainly has its problems and I hope it is improved after patch. But even if it is it will not be a great 1 on 1 plane, planes like that and P-51, Tempest, etc. will always be better in multiple plane combat. Just a thought.

I really don't care about the Spitfire either. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Beauty isn't she?

http://www.brewsterbuffalos.org/yoj/pictures/006.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-03-2003, 06:24 AM
Think the lend-lease AC were spit 9's during 1944. What's this about a clipped wing ubber model?

XyZspineZyX
06-03-2003, 09:40 AM
We don't really need the LF XIV series... but it may come, so the good work isn't for nothing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Spits we need are Mk. V and IX as they actually flew in VVS. I can't wait the forward visibility BTW /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .


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<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Seit &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("March 20, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*-24));document.write(count);</script> Tagen<sup>*</sup> gibts Il-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 05:46 AM
i want spit.

Clipped XIV i think might be pretty uber, roll more than anything but a 190, turn better than the german planes, with a large climb rate, i think it would be right up there with la9 and 109K.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 07:19 AM
we dont need historical accuracy if it spoils ppls fun ... we need Hellcats & Corsairs & KI--100s & Spitfires ...

you ppl seem to think LESS planes is more fun ...

online in a DF , we want all the Great WW2 fighters ...

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 12:09 PM
JUST LIKE
http://211.144.101.209/isapi/project1.exe?Pic=WarbirdLegends0013.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 12:28 PM
Personally I think the only Spits that should come are - as said - the V and the IX. They served on the EF and they have a place here.

Badsight - I strongly disagree. I don´t give a rats *** about dogfight servers and I do not want to see time and ressources wasted for planes that have no place in FB (read - that took part in operations simulated by the available maps). I´d take a few map addons for the EF (Demyansk, Kholm and Velikie Luki etc) over a Hellcat of Zero any day.

But as most of them are 3rd Party developments I won´t say a bad word about the makers. I´m just not interested in seeing Maddox Games being talked into doing them just because a handful of players here find them "KeWl" *rolleyes*

---------------------------
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Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

Message Edited on 06/04/0312:29PM by csThor

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 12:41 PM
we dont need spit in game, nor some others planes which didnt exsist in those east front combat areas in big numbers. ´but sure we are gonna get em because of markets of the game, wonder that why they didnt implent them before release...
personally dont want those planes in this.

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 12:49 PM
Strafnaya, is 1200 Spitfires a big enough number for you? You should check out some of the numbers for VVS a/c that are in the game.

**** beware the charge of the rhinos ****

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg
http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/trudgian-holdingthe2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 01:19 PM
The Spitfires delivered to Russia were, AFAIK, deployed for the defense of Moscow...and saw very little action actually.

So no, we dont NEED a Spitfire. It might be interesting to have one, but people should be aware that it's more a catering to the western front crowd than a historical necessarity.

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 01:43 PM
And how much action did those single and double digit produced VVS fighters see?

Spitfires were also over Berlin and there is a Berlin map is there not?

**** beware the charge of the rhinos ****

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg
http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/trudgian-holdingthe2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 06:02 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- The Spitfires delivered to Russia were, AFAIK,
- deployed for the defense of Moscow...and saw very
- little action actually.


IIRC, the VVS used the Spitfire Mk V in Crimea or the Kuban area.



We few, we happy few, we band of Würgerwhiners...
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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 06:10 PM
Yeah what about the twelve I-16 with 20mm guns, you encounter them a lot for such a rare a/c!

Have you tried the suicide dive bomb attack on the Marat in single missions? Guess what your up against...Excatly those rare 20mm polikarpovs will make sure you will not return alive from sinking the Marat!

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 06:21 PM
I dont think that's quite comparable. At least these russian types did serve at the eastern front, and are variants of more common planes.

I simple dont like people going around claiming we "NEED" western aircraft in this sim. If you like them, and say you want them, no worries, but to stipulate that an eastern front sim would be incomplete without a Spitfire or Mustang is kinda alternate history.

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 07:26 PM
well, i can't remember how many times that was said... you want a particular plane in fb? do it yourself, and present it to 1C team...

personnally i prefer to have the team working on bug resolution rather than working on new planes.. and don't tell me graphists are unemployed, there are graphical issues as well...

and they are already working on the next games also...

new planes are to be included because someone took the time to do it...

you want a spit, do it, or if you can't, try to find someone who can and convince him to do it...

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 07:28 PM
Better remove the Berlin and Hungarian maps then, Nowi.

**** beware the charge of the rhinos ****

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg
http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/trudgian-holdingthe2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:12 PM
Salute Nowi

You need to do some research.

Spitfires saw more combat service with the VVS than all of the following aircraft.

B1
Mig 3U
Yak 9K
PE-8

The 1300 + Spitfires which saw service on the Eastern Front were present in greater numbers than the following types:

Brewster Buffalo
Fiat G-50
109GAS
109K4
190D9

Most Spitfire IX's saw service as Air Defence Units, but Spitfire V's saw front line service in the Kuban, Crimea and at Leningrad.

They should be included.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:23 PM
I support the Spittfire for one reason only, to see its forward visibility and compare it to FW190.

Bring it on.

XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 10:49 PM
I really want a spitfire in FB also, along with a flyable lancaster would be sweet, especially if we get the ju88 and bf110

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter


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XyZspineZyX
06-04-2003, 11:35 PM
As far as I can tell from researching it. Russia never got the XIV. That appears to be the first one we're getting.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>

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XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 04:26 AM
we want western aircraft for good reasons

1) Forgotton Battles is the best prop flight sim so far .... waste of time flying anything else

2) we love the Spitfire & Corsair & Hellcat & Zero cause they were the greatest prop fighters of WW2
you who dont want them can delete them or not DownLoad them or not fly them... but saying we shouldnt have them is NARROW MINDED & SELFISH.... you people amaze me at your unwillingness to see them here ... it would be sooo cool !!!!! these forums are populated by real mean spirited argumentative gamers



.

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 07:47 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- You really want the Spit? hmmmmm You know how crappy
- the Fw190 is Spit IX and tha A-5 were basically equals
- so this means the Spit will be crap as well.

There's a difference between 'equals' and 'flies the same'.

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 07:49 PM
NuFoerki wrote:
- all western planes will have their problems in this
- game...
- they were better at high alts but here that doesn´t
- count....
-
Ah - we'll be ok with a Typhoon then! And the Tempest
was no slouch down low either.

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 08:02 PM
We need a Spitfire Mk XIV!!!!!!!!!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 08:16 PM
Aaron, both a/c had an advantage over each other at different points in their flight, Neither dominated over the other, hence equals. If the Spit IX kicks the Fw190s butt, or the reverse, in FB, then one of the FMs is not correct. And, all know the FB Anton has problems, as of now./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (the new FMs might correct this problem) So to be true to RL, the Spit will have a crap FM.

I am not holding much hope for a correctly modelled FM for the Spit IX or any of the other Mks being modelled. One only has to look at the FB P-47 and the wealth of data available to model its FM correctly. What did we get?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

More care has to be taken in modelling the FM of 'western' only a/c. Just too much knowledge out their.


AaronGT wrote:
-
- MiloMorai wrote:
-- You really want the Spit? hmmmmm You know how crappy
-- the Fw190 is, Spit IX and the A-5 were basically equals
-- so this means the Spit will be crap as well.
-
- There's a difference between 'equals' and 'flies the
- same'.
-




Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 08:24 PM
i bet the tempest and typhoon wouldn´t rock either, aaron. fast yes but so are the current german ones...

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 09:52 PM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:

- The 1300 + Spitfires which saw service on the
- Eastern Front were present in greater numbers than
- the following types:
-
- Brewster Buffalo
- Fiat G-50
- 109GAS
- 109K4
- 190D9

Salute Buzzsaw,

You need to do a lot more research.

1, No 1300 Spitfires on the EF, esp. not at one time. The use of Spitfires was limited, and VVS pilots did not like them because of their poor reliabilty.

2, There were a lot more 109K-4 and 109G/AS built than the number of L-L Spits the USSR received.

-
- They should be included.
-

No doubt about that, a Spit with a historical flight model (there are plenty of Russian test about Spit9LF performance) would give us a great opportunity to break Priller`s record.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 11:08 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Aaron, both a/c had an advantage over each other at
- different points in their flight,


That was basically my point. If there are issues
with the physics model, that disadvantage the 190,
then there is no reason to suppose, given that
the Spit IX remains competitive with the 190A5
by being good in some areas, that the physics model/FM
will mean that the Spit IX will be disadvantaged
in terms of its FM in the way that some feel the
190 is.

- Neither dominated
- over the other, hence equals. If the Spit IX kicks
- the Fw190s butt, or the reverse, in FB, then one of
- the FMs is not correct.

To really test that you'd need human pilots, flying
online, both knowing the aircraft well. The AI is
a bit dumb so I wouldn't trust a test to the AI!

- I am not holding much hope for a correctly modelled
- FM for the Spit IX or any of the other Mks being
- modelled. One only has to look at the FB P-47 and
- the wealth of data available to model its FM
- correctly. What did we get?

That might be an a case of it being a late, and
insufficiently tested addition, or an issue with
the physics model that might yet be fixed, so I
am not so pessimistic. It seems the FM does better
with relatively light fighters, and the earlier
Spitfires fit this profile, so the earlier ones
at least should be fine with the current FM/physics.
But Oleg alluded to a physics model change, so that
might correct things at the heavier end where
the P47 and 190 sit. I suppose we'll have to wait...

I hope this does work out, since the Tempest will
be at the heavier end of the spectrum, let alone
the Mosquito, etc.

XyZspineZyX
06-05-2003, 11:12 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
- 1, No 1300 Spitfires on the EF, esp. not at one
- time. The use of Spitfires was limited, and VVS
- pilots did not like them because of their poor
- reliabilty.

Was that because they were inherently unreliable
in the climate they were used in in the USSR, or
because they were rather worn out aircraft? (I notice
that some of the Hurricane IIs supplied to the USSR
were rebuilt Hurricane Is that had seen service
in the Battle of Britain).

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 10:12 AM
Salute Isengrim

Please try to back up your comments with actual facts.

The following Spitfire types were shipped to the Soviet Union beginning in late 1942:

143 Mk Vb's

1188 Mk IX's and Mk IX LF


They saw service throughout the rest of the war.

On May 1st 1945, the following Spitfire types were still in service with the VVS:


Mk Vb: 11

Mk IX: 848


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 11:49 AM
i would have to go along with mean spirited aswell,why cant we have a bit of artistic licence when including a/c in the add ons,this is by far the best prop sim ive ever played and would be a shame not to included some of the most awe inspiring aircraft ever built!
if you want historical accuracy then ignore the aircraft you dont fancy seeing but dont shout down the rest of us,who believe it or not use the FB vehicle as a launch pad to fight other arenas,

we at tangmere are making some great BoB style missions using FB a/c and are utterly enjoying it,after thats what a game is all about enjoyment!


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 01:21 PM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:

- 1) Forgotton Battles is the best prop flight sim so
- far .... waste of time flying anything else

No disagreement here.


- 2) we love the Spitfire & Corsair & Hellcat & Zero
- cause they were the greatest prop fighters of WW2
- you who dont want them can delete them or not
- DownLoad them or not fly them... but saying we
- shouldnt have them is NARROW MINDED & SELFISH....
- you people amaze me at your unwillingness to see
- them here ... it would be sooo cool !!!!! these
- forums are populated by real mean spirited
- argumentative gamers

IMO you misunderstand my intention. What I strongly disagree with is the priority many gamers seem to place on the western AC. Oleg wrote once that - even if the whole 3D model and suficient flight model information are supplied by 3rd Party - it still takes up a lot of work top include the plane into th game (somewhere in the relation of 30% 3D Model and 70% coding work). I do not think it would be

a) wise

and

b) acceptable

to have Maddox Games work on new planes exclusively and not concentrate on curing errors and bugs or adding gameplay improvements.

Of course I understand that a fully functional Complex Engine Management or correct flightmodels for all planes are not that important to the dogfighter crowd (I hardly saw other planes than the usual late-war Monsters when I had the nerve to join a DF server) - but for offline campaign and for serious online COOP flying this is of greatest importance. I would prefer to see the time spent in making wrongs right instead of adding planes that won´t see use in most parts of the game.

And yes I am in that way a little "narrow-minded" but I think DF servers aren´t worth joining at all since they are merely Quake/Doom/whatever deathmatches relocated into Il-2 FB. And this is not my cup of tea. Just my 0,02 Euros ...


---------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-0001/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg (http://www.lwskins.de.vu)
Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

Message Edited on 06/06/0301:23PM by csThor

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 01:33 PM
IJG54_Nowi wrote:
- I dont think that's quite comparable. At least these
- russian types did serve at the eastern front, and
- are variants of more common planes.
-
- I simple dont like people going around claiming we
- "NEED" western aircraft in this sim. If you like
- them, and say you want them, no worries, but to
- stipulate that an eastern front sim would be
- incomplete without a Spitfire or Mustang is kinda
- alternate history.

Adding the Ta-152 would be more of altering history if you ask me.

&lt;script>var avatar='http://www.opzolder.net/dsa/forum/f2.gif'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=avatar</script>

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/images/322.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:03 PM
i want too spit,a4 was better as spit5 and match for spit9

and not only bnz, 190 could too doghfight against spit

maneuver is not only turn

i will see how oleg this manage


Message Edited on 06/06/0306:32PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:18 PM
csThor wrote:
- WUAF_Badsight wrote:
-
-- 1) Forgotton Battles is the best prop flight sim so
-- far .... waste of time flying anything else
-
- No disagreement here.
-
-
.......

Totally agree what you said and love your skin site with many great work skins.

http://www.chnace.org/bbs/attachments/PWLI_Guncam2.gif


It's Real, It's Fun.

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 04:57 PM
Well I want the Spitfires because they are great aircraft and I cannot fly them anywhere else. Many people will play FB with the Spitfire who might not otherwise play, and that makes it worth 1C's while to implement them.

I agree that online arenas are Quake with aircraft. An online war that simulates real war from a pilot's perspective as closely as possible would be much better.

Philips CDRW

"Yoke Whiners"
The First of the One

Posting vacuous messages since 2002

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 07:31 PM
AaronGT wrote:
-
- Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-- 1, No 1300 Spitfires on the EF, esp. not at one
-- time. The use of Spitfires was limited, and VVS
-- pilots did not like them because of their poor
-- reliabilty.
-
- Was that because they were inherently unreliable
- in the climate they were used in in the USSR, or
- because they were rather worn out aircraft? (I
- notice
- that some of the Hurricane IIs supplied to the USSR
- were rebuilt Hurricane Is that had seen service
- in the Battle of Britain).
-

No, the Soviets received brand new aircrafts. I believe it was the Soviet climate and conditions, couypled with some of the design faults of the Spits. They used engines with carburrators, and their carburator air intake was located right under their engine, in the nose, only centimeters aways from the ground - not the best idea for Russian steppes, with so much dust, dirt blown by the wind. In the desert the British tried to protect against this with some rather bulky air filters attached to the nose, but I can`t see any of those on Spits with the Red Star. Probably this being the root of the problem, as the Soviets complained about the engines short serice life.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 08:16 PM
Salute Buzzspawn,

You have stated that 859 Spitfires were used by the VVS in 1st May 1945. That up to 70 Squadrons.

Please state those Squadrons or larger units in first line service using Spitfires, so we can believe your statements that lack a solid background of sources.

I hope that the proper understanding of the meaning of 'FIRST LINE UNIT' on your part will not put you in difficulties.

Otherwise, approx. 7500 G-6/14/AS/G-10, K-4 and Dora-9 were built. To my reckoning, that is more in some ways than the few hundred Spitfires in Soviet service. Nevertheless, I fully agree we need the Spitfires with correct a flight model.

Regarding squadron service, 65% of all Bf 109 type daylight fighters with First line units were of the G-6/14/AS/G-10, or K-4 types on 31st January 1945.


- Salute Isengrim
-
- Please try to back up your comments with actual
- facts.
-
- The following Spitfire types were shipped to the
- Soviet Union beginning in late 1942:
-
- 143 Mk Vb's
-
- 1188 Mk IX's and Mk IX LF
-
-
- They saw service throughout the rest of the war.
-
- On May 1st 1945, the following Spitfire types were
- still in service with the VVS:
-
-
- Mk Vb: 11
-
- Mk IX: 848
-
-
- RAF74 Buzzsaw
-
-
-
-
-



http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 11:29 PM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:
- Salute Isengrim
-
- Please try to back up your comments with actual
- facts.
-
- The following Spitfire types were shipped to the
- Soviet Union beginning in late 1942:
-
- 143 Mk Vb's
-
- 1188 Mk IX's and Mk IX LF
-
-
- They saw service throughout the rest of the war.
-
- On May 1st 1945, the following Spitfire types were
- still in service with the VVS:
-
-
- Mk Vb: 11
-
- Mk IX: 848
-
-
- RAF74 Buzzsaw
-
Interresting figures but do you have some info about the combat record of the Spit in the VVS ?

I sought some articles about it and I didn't find much except that some of the soviet spits operated on the southern front against romanian units (Cantacuzino was once shot down by one of them).

XyZspineZyX
06-06-2003, 11:30 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
- No, the Soviets received brand new aircrafts.

I'll bow to your knowledge on Spitfires. (I know
that some Hurricanes supplied were new, some were
really old soldiers).

- from the ground - not the best idea for Russian
- steppes, with so much dust, dirt blown by the wind.
- In the desert the British tried to protect against
- this with some rather bulky air filters attached to
- the nose, but I can`t see any of those on Spits with
- the Red Star.

Sounds like they should have sent the trop versions?

I suppose there might also have been an issue with
short service life due to unfamiliarity with the
engine? (just as if the USSR had sent a load of I-16s
to the UK in BoB, if they had been allies then).

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 01:03 AM
Yeh Spitfire would be great.

Also a Mosquito would be great.

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 03:49 AM
Salute Isengrim

Go back and re-read my post. I did not say Front line.

At the end of the war, all Spitfires active were in service with PVO. None were in service with front line units.

The reasons were as you stated, ie. the Spitfires were more difficult to maintain and service, due to the engine design, and additionally, the fact they required higher octane gasoline to develop their maximum horsepower. Their landing gear was also quite fragile which added problems with the rough fighter fields in Russia. (Similar problems with the 109G2's landing gear led to it being replaced by the 109G6 with its more durable, but heavier gear)

Earlier in the war, Spitfires did see Frontline active service in the Kuban and in the Crimea, 1943 being the year they were most used. Most of these used were Mk V's with the addition of some Mk IX's. Spitfires certainly did not see the amount of Frontline service as did the Hurricane, but nevertheless, they were active, more so than many aircraft as I have mentioned.

Even those units with the PVO had to deal with German bombing raids.

In regards to your comment regarding numbers of G6's etc., I would suggest you go back and re-read my post. I only mentioned K4's and D9's and I stand by my comment that more Spitfires were active on the Eastern Front than those types.


Salute RAF74 Buzzsaw



Message Edited on 06/07/0302:50AM by RAF74Buzzsaw_XO

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 04:19 AM
S! Buzzsaw,

Before you get yourself in trouble. You did mention 109GAS. That could mean the G6A/S.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 08:15 AM
Salute Buzz

You are right, I mentioned the 109GAS. And I stand by my comment that it was used much less than the Spitfire on the Eastern Front.

109GAS were almost exclusively reserved for Staffel engaged in the interception of high altitude B-17 raids, and were not assigned in any numbers to Staffel on the East Front.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 08:28 AM
all these considerations about presence in numbers of an aircraft on eastern front is irrelevant...

if none of you have understood yet, oleg include planes that are available...

someone made the bi1, so we had the bi1 (operational use?)

someone made the go229, so we will have the go229 (same as bi1)

someone made the zero, so we will have the zero (much operational use, but not on the eastern front)


i wonder of much time it will take you to realize that it is not by trying to convince oleg that a plane saw much more action during world war two that he will make it for a future patch... but it could be for the next sim...

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 12:14 PM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:
- Salute Buzz
-
- You are right, I mentioned the 109GAS. And I stand
- by my comment that it was used much less than the
- Spitfire on the Eastern Front.

But you have already admitted that the Spitfires didnt see any serious frontline service with the EF. In fact, they were a thousend kilometer behind the front, not seeing any action in other than Kuban... their existance dont show up in the LW`s kills...

On the other hand, by early 1945, 65% of the LWs Bf 109 type fighters were of the high altitude ("AS") ones.

Knowing all that, its very funny that still state that the Spitfires were "much more common" than the 109GAS types. Wishful thinking I guess.

Again, for you information, approx. 7500 were built of the types you mentioned. This is 7 times more than the total number of Spitfires the Russians received, and in fact TWICE the number of the Spitfire LF MkIX the British produced in total.


-
- 109GAS were almost exclusively reserved for Staffel
- engaged in the interception of high altitude B-17
- raids, and were not assigned in any numbers to
- Staffel on the East Front.
-

Sorry, you are wrong in this. As usual, you make sweeping statements without checking wheter they are wrong or right.

At least one frontline Gruppe on the EF was issued with G-6/AS (can look up which one was it exactly), and since you mentioned 109GAS, we can count the G-14/AS as well (a G-6/AS in everything but name...), of which again very significant numbers were produced (more than 1800). Including the G-10, with it`s even better capabilty high altitude engine is fair as well, and it was without doubt widespread on the eastern front.

But even if we look at only the 109K, alone of that already almost twice as much were produced than the number of Spitfires the Russians received. And, unlike those, it saw widespread frontline service.

Still, despite their rather limited participation on the EF, I am very much in support in introducing of the Spitfire, even those types which didnt saw any frontline service on EF, and were very limited use even with the RAF (namely the Mk.XIV). We simply need these classic airoplanes, esp. as it`s a great chance to finally have them with a historical flight model rather than the FM/DM based on generalisations or oral stories we see in other sims.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 12:57 PM
What I wish:
First, get patch for FM & DM;

Second, get addon planes for really used in East front line.

Third, get some planes for fun.

http://www.chnace.org/bbs/attachments/PWLI_Guncam2.gif


It's Real, It's Fun.

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 01:38 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
--
-- 109GAS were almost exclusively reserved for Staffel
-- engaged in the interception of high altitude B-17
-- raids, and were not assigned in any numbers to
-- Staffel on the East Front.
--
-
- Sorry, you are wrong in this. As usual, you make
- sweeping statements without checking wheter they are
- wrong or right.
-
-
- At least one frontline Gruppe on the EF was issued
- with G-6/AS (can look up which one was it exactly),
- and since you mentioned 109GAS, we can count the
- G-14/AS as well (a G-6/AS in everything but
- name...), of which again very significant numbers
- were produced (more than 1800). Including the G-10,
- with it`s even better capabilty high altitude
- engine is fair as well, and it was without doubt
- widespread on the eastern front.
-
- But even if we look at only the 109K, alone of that
- already almost twice as much were produced than the
- number of Spitfires the Russians received. And,
- unlike those, it saw widespread frontline service.
-
-

Did you not see the word 'almost'? That one EF Gruppe would make the use of the a/c >>'almost'<< exclusive to the western front.


Production numbers from reliable sources required.

Prien/Rodeike has:

G-6/AS - 686 (May-Aug '44)

G-14/AS - ~1000 (from July '44)

K-4 > ~ 1800 (from Oct '44)
______________
total - ~3500


Since Germany was the front line (east and west) in '45, any German a/c that went up could be considered to be fighting over the front, east and west.

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 06:01 PM
Isegrim

Surely the Spitfire has more right to be included on the EF than the Ta152../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 06:32 PM
yeah, and more than the pony /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 07:52 PM
tekboyHK wrote:
- JUST LIKE

Very nice picture of the Spitfire, it is on my desktop.

MOST WANTED PLANE
http://home.wxs.nl/~elzer033/images/planes/t_Spitfire_1.jpg (http://home.wxs.nl/~elzer033/images/planes/Spitfire_1.bmp)
please feel free to click on the picture.

Flight Sims Forever!
http://home.wxs.nl/~elzer033/images/dutch-bf109.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 09:53 PM
Salute Isengrim



Did I mention G14?? No.

Did I mention G10?? No.


Second point: The question of how many aircraft the Germans produced is not germain to the discussion. In fact, the Germans produced many more 109K4's than there were pilots to fly them. There were many lying around in replacement depots at the end of the war. There were many others sitting for lack of fuel. The limited output of the Training schools were the major impediment to the Luftwaffe increasing the size of its pilot pool.

For your illumination:

From Official Luftwaffe Records, average monthly numbers of Fighter Aircraft OPERATIONAL which were stationed on the East Front:


Sept-Dec '43: 412


Jan-May '44: 411


June-Oct '44: 364


Source: O. Gr¶hler, "St¤rke, Verteilung und Verluste der deutschen Luftwaffe im zweiten Weltkrieg", Milit¤rgeschichte 17, pp. 316-336 (1978).

Please compare the above figures with the numbers I gave for OPERATIONAL Spitfires.

And yes, most of the Spitfires saw service with PVO, but that is not the issue, and not the point I made.

Third, Luftwaffe Staffel were assigned areas to patrol and fronts right up till the end of the war. Very seldom did those assignments include service on both against the Soviets and the Western Allies.


RAF74 Buzzsaw





Message Edited on 06/07/0308:54PM by RAF74Buzzsaw_XO

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 10:27 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:

- At least one frontline Gruppe on the EF was issued
- with G-6/AS (can look up which one was it exactly.

Could you find out which unit that was? I've been wanting to know the answer to this for a long time.

I/JG54^Lukas
He 162A-2 Cockpit Modeler

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 10:51 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:

- Adding the Ta-152 would be more of altering history
- if you ask me

Oberfeldwebel Josef Keil, the only pilot to score 5 victories while flying the Ta 152, claimed his last victories on 21 April, when he shot down two Russian Yak-9's over Berlin. Walter Loos shot down 4 Yak-9's over Berlin as well, and Willi Reschke claimed two Yak-9's over Berlin. All of the these pilots were aces flying with Stab/JG301.



I/JG54^Lukas
He 162A-2 Cockpit Modeler

XyZspineZyX
06-07-2003, 11:47 PM
JG54_Lukas

That's three pilots flying the Ta152. How many more were there?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 12:22 AM
who cares how many? we have the 3d model, we will have the plane... you want a spit in the game? find a 3d model instead of whining... shouldn't be so hard, i saw one myself as a work in progress... i know also of a potez 631, of a breguet 690, and much more...

i really don't care for spit, and hearing you whining again and again desserves your cause instead of serving it...

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 12:32 AM
I was curious, that's why Lonely Postman. You sound like the whiner to me. I want all the planes.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 02:27 AM
you want all the plane? go for cfs, open architecture, you can add all the plane you want...

personnally, i wait to have a corrected game... i won't complain if additionnal planes are added as well, but i don't wait for any of them...

and i will surely not whine here to have a plane... If i wanted a plane that badly, i would get 3dstudio max and begin to try myself...

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 02:32 AM
rgr Thor ... point taken ... its true the online community mostly fly only the most effective DF planes but online coops are excellent fun as well , i try to make my coops with a wide range of planes / objectivs... IMHO 60% of online pilots seem to me to be ego jockys who are out for a ego stroking point score & will do anything for more points as well .... ie NOT fun fights or fair challenges

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 03:10 AM
Hoarmurath

Your a funny guy. You should read more posts before you put your mouth in gear. You don't have a clue about what i'm all about, but yet, your telling what to do. I'm really not interested in what you think I should do, so please keep it to yourself.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 03:19 AM
Careful Buzz, that is a Eupi your talking to and they, especially some, can't do no wrong on these Ubi forums.

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 08:28 AM
Milo - what's a "Eupi"?

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 09:31 AM
you want your spit?

go there, help them, support them...

http://www.il2center.com/Forums/viewforum.php?f=1

there you'll find the people that are working on all kind of 3D models in the hope they will one day be included in the game.

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 11:34 AM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:-
But you have already admitted that the Spitfires
- didnt see any serious frontline service with the EF.
- In fact, they were a thousend kilometer behind the
- front, not seeing any action in other than Kuban...


lol; so let me fight them/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/messerflugsig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 12:23 PM
MiloMorai wrote:

- Did you not see the word 'almost'? That one EF
- Gruppe would make the use of the a/c >>'almost'<<
- exclusive to the western front.



yeah sometimes one or two words can make the difference. >>almost<<, >>pretty sure<<...

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 12:56 PM
Still waiting for the reason you say "pretty sure" the 915 number is incorrect, NuF. Opinion does NOT 'cut it'. Are you incapable of backing up your 'opinion' with some hard data/facts? Seems so.

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 01:14 PM
not many,but from ratio was it great part from the luftwaffe 45

i believe 67 was build

when only 80-100 plane could operate 45,because lack of fuel,was ta-152h not little part

ta-152 and me262 was certain prefer to get fuel


BuzzU wrote:
- JG54_Lukas
-
- That's three pilots flying the Ta152. How many
- more were there?
-
-
- Da Buzz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- <center>
-
<img
- src="http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberli
- n.jpg">


Message Edited on 07/03/0310:31PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 01:18 PM
milo, snoopy told you to stop your spam. take it to pm or do something usefull.

stop disturbing the community with you envy_fights, please.

---------------------------------------



under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 01:58 PM
Better put into practice what you preach NuF.

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 02:40 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Better put into practice what you preach NuF.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Old habits die hard.

One more try, do not argue in this forum take it to PM

<fontsize=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community FAQ (http://mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)
<fontsize=2>Hunter82's Tech Pages (http://mudmovers.com/tech/tech_pages.htm)

XyZspineZyX
06-08-2003, 04:34 PM
Skalgrim

Thanks for the info. I knew it wasn't alot. I'm looking forward to the Ta152. We should have some good high altitude birds soon.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 10:15 AM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:
- Salute Isengrim

Salute Buzzspawn

-
- Did I mention G14?? No.
-

Did you say 109GAS? Yes. Was the G-14/AS the same thing as G-6/AS? Yes.

-
- Did I mention G10?? No.
-

Irrevelant, it had the same performance as "109GAS", it had similiar high altitude engine etc.


It`s just another of your everyday partisan attacks on these boards.



-
- Second point: The question of how many aircraft the
- Germans produced is not germain to the discussion.
-

Good for a joke. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Let`s see, it`s irrevelant how many K4s were produced, just because alone of that plane almost twice as many were built than as many Spits the Soviets recieved. And that ruins Buzzspawn`s version totally.


- In fact, the Germans produced many more 109K4's than
- there were pilots to fly them.

In fact, you have no idea of that. You don`t know how many were on the frontline, you don`t know how many pilots were assigned to them, but you make your usual sweeping statements, just like as you did in the case with "no single G-6/AS ever assigned to the EF". That was wrong, too.



- There were many
- lying around in replacement depots at the end of the
- war.

Yep, there was plenty of supply of them, factories produced them in hundreds every month - if there was such an abundance of them, one just wonders how could they be rare?

Soviet Spitfires saw no combat service by the time the planes you mentioned entered service.

-
- Please compare the above figures with the numbers I
- gave for OPERATIONAL Spitfires.
-

No, you gave numbers for the surviving Spitfires of the original LL batch, whihc were rotting in Soviet hangars a thousend kilometer away from the frontlines.

You were asked to supply which units ACTUALLY flew them in late 1944 - you couldn`t answer. 800 operational Spitfires would means 70 fighter squadrons.

List them.

You evaded that part the last time, for obvious reasons. It`s another blanket statement.


-
- And yes, most of the Spitfires saw service with PVO,
- but that is not the issue, and not the point I made.
-

The fact that they did not see combat is not an issue to how widespread they were? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


-
- Third, Luftwaffe Staffel were assigned areas to
- patrol and fronts right up till the end of the war.
- Very seldom did those assignments include service on
- both against the Soviets and the Western Allies.
-

This is just the usual sweeping statments of yours, similiar to those which dropped you into the poo you are in right now.

That`s the usual case with you, you make some bombastic statements with very little research or actual knowladge on the subject, based on your beliefs/preconceptions, then you are corrected, but instead of admitting you got something wrong, you just work yourself even deeper into the sh*t.

So, I patiently await your numbers for the K-4s, 109G with AS engines, D-9s etc. and Spitfires with their actual combat units.


http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 12:00 PM
well my preconception/belief is the the best fighter of

WW2 had the word " Spitfire " in front of its name ....

should it matter how many were in russia ? we are getting

the Zero ! this is the best Prop fighter game made so

far ...... why not have all the best WW2 era fighters in

it ?? btw if its done half right the Spitfire will own all

others !!! ..... btw ... fly FB , its a waste of time

flying anything else !!

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 12:29 PM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:
- well my preconception/belief is the the best fighter
- of
-
- WW2 had the word " Spitfire " in front of its name


You are whining again. Spitfire? I love it too. but I think there are something more important than add some aircrafts for your fun.
I think you'd better do something would be better tha whining here.

-
- should it matter how many were in russia ? we are
- getting
-
- the Zero ! this is the best Prop fighter game made
- so

Janpanese Fans collect many many great information for ZERO, so do it by yourself now.


-
- far ...... why not have all the best WW2 era
- fighters in
-
- it ?? btw if its done half right the Spitfire will
- own all
-
- others !!! ..... btw ... fly FB , its a waste of
- time
-
- flying anything else !!
-
-

So go ahead for CFS2 or CFS3, there are some great Spitfires, which are really great indeed. if you really love Spitfire.



<img src=http://jackly.cpgl.net/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=19249>

It's Real, It's Fun.

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 12:32 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:

-
- Did you say 109GAS? Yes. Was the G-14/AS the same
- thing as G-6/AS? Yes.
-


That is not what was said in this thread, one you even posted in. http://pub131.ezboard.com/fallb*utwarfarefrm31.showMessage?topicID=2777.topi c

*: replace with an 'o' since UBi bad word checker is useless


-
- Good for a joke. Let`s see, it`s
- irrevelant how many K4s were produced, just because
- alone of that plane almost twice as many were built
- than as many Spits the Soviets recieved. And that
- ruins Buzzspawn`s version totally.
-
-

There was only ~1800 K-4s built. That is only 38% more than the number of Spits recieved by the Soviets.



"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 12:46 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
--
-- Did you say 109GAS? Yes. Was the G-14/AS the same
-- thing as G-6/AS? Yes.
-
- That is not what was said in this thread, one you
- even posted in.
-

Your reading comprehension again...?


-
- There was only ~1800 K-4s built. That is only 38%
- more than the number of Spits recieved by the
- Soviets.
-

"..almost twice as many..."

Reading comprehension troubles, eh, Milo?

Besides it hardly changes anything. Buzzspawn stated the Soviets had more Spits than K-4s available. This is wrong. End of story.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 01:10 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- MiloMorai wrote:
--
-- Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
--
---
--- Did you say 109GAS? Yes. Was the G-14/AS the same
--- thing as G-6/AS? Yes.
--
-- That is not what was said in this thread, one you
-- even posted in.
--
-
- Your reading comprehension again...?
-

quote of Butch2k:
" The difference being that the G14 had MW-50 while the G6/AS did not."

The addition of MW50 in the G-14 while the G-6 does not have - major difference,


-
--
-- There was only ~1800 K-4s built. That is only 38%
-- more than the number of Spits recieved by the
-- Soviets.
--
-
- "..almost twice as many..."
-
- Reading comprehension troubles, eh, Milo?
-
-

38% is "almost twice as many"/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Now if it was said 80-90% then sure, but not 38%./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-09-2003, 03:23 PM
MiloMorai wrote:

-
- quote of Butch2k:
- " The difference being that the G14 had MW-50 while
- the G6/AS did not."
-
- The addition of MW50 in the G-14 while the G-6 does
- not have - major difference,


Read again. Many G-6/AS had MW-50. Thwe question in that topic is wheter they had it in April. Knoke`s diary suggest that at least some of them had.

For your information, Butch himself also said that they were equipped with MW50, modifing the already existing the GM-1 piping etc.

It`s all there, one just have to read.

---
--- There was only ~1800 K-4s built. That is only 38%
--- more than the number of Spits recieved by the
--- Soviets.
---
-
- 38% is "almost twice as many"
-
- [cut 3000 smileys]
-
- Now if it was said
- 80-90% then sure, but not 38%
-

Hmmm, Buzzsaw claimed some 800 still in Soviet hands in 1945. Now I wonder, how does ~1700 K-4s compare to that? 1700 divided by 800.

My reckoning is that it`s twice the number. But that`s just an opinion.



http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 05:44 AM
well saying that the best WW2 fighter has become a whine has it ?
quote " think there are something more important than add
- some aircrafts for your fun."

rjr , thats what the first patch is all about .....

but we should still get more planes tho & thats what the 2nd & 3rd patches are going to be about .....

btw the best fighters in WW2 had the word " Spitfire " in front of their name
btw ... fly FB ... its a waste of time flying anything else
btw Mc777 , what happened to your avatar ?? uit was soo cool having a small section of a DF track as it .... if i knew how to do the same i would , it looked great !

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 06:23 AM
LOL, were there 1800 K-4s around from day one of manufacturing and still around in flying condition in 1945? Most were smoldering wrecks.

cut 3000 smileys? What ever you say Issy.

At the time of my post, Butch had not added to the thread./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 07:27 AM
bitorus wrote:
- As you know the Russians recieved Spits on the
- Lend/Lease program.

ok ... ... ... so?

<center>

http://www.geocities.com/warhawk530/AVG.jpg


'It is Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 08:41 AM
nt = No Text

<img src=http://jackly.cpgl.net/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=19249>

It's Real, It's Fun.

XyZspineZyX
06-10-2003, 08:45 AM
WUAF_Badsight wrote:
- well saying that the best WW2 fighter has become a
- whine has it ?
- quote " think there are something more important
- than add
-- some aircrafts for your fun."
-
- rjr , thats what the first patch is all about .....
-
- but we should still get more planes tho & thats
- what the 2nd & 3rd patches are going to be about
- .....
-
-
- btw the best fighters in WW2 had the word "
- Spitfire " in front of their name
-
- btw ... fly FB ... its a waste of time flying
- anything else

Enjoy it by yourself.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
-
- btw Mc777 , what happened to your avatar ?? uit
- was soo cool having a small section of a DF track as
- it .... if i knew how to do the same i would , it
- looked great !
-
-
-
The original avatar is too large and be warned by web-master, so changed to the small one - A little pig. I make it use Imageready, it's easy for you.



<img src=http://jackly.cpgl.net/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=19249>

It's Real, It's Fun.

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 06:58 PM
Anything for a good Spit. A desert MkV, or a Mk IX, or a MkI. Or how about a PR Spit? Turn and burn. The airplane Bob Hoover called, "a real gut-fighter." A must.

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:51 PM
No.We don't need a Spitfire - WE NEED LOADS OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:56 PM
The spitfire is definatly the plane i would like next, to fly along side the hurricane.

Can't wait to setup some 109 190 plane sets


Right now the most fun online seems to be with the p40 p11 b239 have some great fights

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:58 PM
I'll would love to kill loads of P-51's with a Spit XIV or F.24!!!

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 04:24 PM
visit this thread - last known pictures of the Spitfires in development

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zdkiy



http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 12:52 AM
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/FBspitfire.jpg




http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 08:40 AM
sobolan wrote:
- well, historically, the Spit was beter than the Ha,
- ha, hurri.

actually the hurricane was a better turner than the Spitfire ..... just

give me my Spitfire & ill wipe the smug ,climbing away to safty, smile off of FW & BF pilots

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 05:28 AM
may we meet again in my new aimed bf109 s77th-brook http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 05:29 AM
All it takes is a volunteer to model it.

You, perhaps?

<center>
http://members.verizon.net/~vze2cb22/KosSig.gif

America: #1 military...#15 in literacy...
Because right wingers run our military
and leftists run our schools!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 06:40 AM
Forgotton Battles is a very Flexible Sim guys, there is a place for the Spitfire and the Zero in FB, because of that.
Especially when you consider that the Sim is expanding into other theatres of the War.
Example Why do we need a Spitfire and a Zero when they never met in Combat.

The Spitfire and the Zero met in Combat over the Owen Stanley Ranges in Papua New Guinea in the South Pacific during WW2, because the New Guinea Campaign dragged on for a couple of years.

There are many different Historical Aircraft Match ups you can create for your Forgotton Battle.
One of the best things about FB is its flexability.

S!

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 06:50 AM
The Mediterranean would be a great place to intoduce the Spit.

<center>
http://members.verizon.net/~vze2cb22/KosSig.gif

America: #1 military...#15 in literacy...
Because right wingers run our military
and leftists run our schools!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 07:47 AM
True Cossack, but you can recreate almost any area of WW II already in FB.
The Sim became very flexible when the developer made it possible for the Fans to create their own skins.
Look how easily we are able to re create the Pacific via the New Guinea campaign, already in FB.

To be Honest we hardly even had to try in doing so, the irrepresable un stoppable fans of all theatres of WW II did most of the work for us.

I am currently researching to find the Actual Squadron who flew the Spitfire over New Guinea actaly to create Coops there as well.

Incidently I am not Anti Med, we Host the JG77 Online Group we have also been looking forward to the Med, JG77 was heavily involved in the Med and was the last Luftwaffe Jagdgeschwader to be withdrawn from the Med along with Elements of JG4 in June 1944 for defence of the Riech Duties.
So after June 1944 there where no German fighters any where in the Med.

On the other hand we see big potential for Pacific recreations right up till August 1945, in regards to Axis fighters in FB.

S!



Message Edited on 07/08/0307:08AM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 09:01 AM
Guys,

If you've not seen these yet/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.il2center.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=1812


ATB

Biggs

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 10:15 AM
1700 or 1800 K-4? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Is that not to optimistic? I have figures of 700 K-4 deliverd by April 45.

Units equipped or partly equipped with K-4 by 8.February 45.

III/JG3
III/JG4
I/JG27
III/JG27
II/JG53
III/JG53
IV/JG53
II/KG(J)6
II/KG(J)27
II/KG(J)55

So take an average strenght of theoretical 30-36 a/c (what is very optimistic by that stage of war) you have in best case 300-360 Bf109K-4 posted at Luftwaffe units.


http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu es une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 10:35 AM
Well Prien/Rodeike say 534 delivered by 30 Nov. 1944, with ~1200 more by wars end.


KIMURA wrote:
- 1700 or 1800 K-4?
- Is that not to
- optimistic? I have figures of 700 K-4 deliverd by
- April 45.
-
-

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 10:47 AM
Seems the numbers varying a little from sources to sources, but that's not very surprising because of the difficult and confusing situation in Germany by 1945. But it seems to hypothetical to me discussing about figures of produced a/c which were never delivered to front line units. That makes very little sense, that's to far off./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Keep in mind those units which I posted were apointed date 8.Feb.45. There were sure further deliveries I didn't list yet.

Add some Gruppen of: JG51, JG52, JG77.

But even with those Jagdgeschwader fully equipped with K-4( was it surely wasn't the case) you will hardly hit the 700 a/c mark. There are also further figured of 856 K-4 produced at Regensburg til end of 44. But what use on those a/c if don't post them at operational units? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu es une tªte carée comme un sale boche!"



Message Edited on 07/08/0311:37AM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
07-08-2003, 08:51 PM
We need a flyable Po-2 because there were more women in the Soviet Union than Spitfires in the UK... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It would be nice to have Spits in the game if only to hear the howls about how some widget or other didn't work or the airspeed was off by the square root of pi at 3,124 feet inside a thunderstorm. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Seriously, if it can be put in, great. Far be it from me to tell others how to enjoy the sim!

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 05:47 PM
Ah.. sure I have no problem with Spitfire but it troubles me that FW190 will stay the same and I bet Spitfire cockpit is going to be excelent when it comes to visibility.. ! So i'm hoping that if we do not get 190 cockpit fixxed, then Spitfire cockpit visibility should also be cramped!

I have high expections for the patch...

<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez2.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 06:29 PM
Should be interesting to compare the FB Spitfire IX to the results found here

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit9.html


example: Spitfire IX, BS. 543, Merlin 66

Rate of climb at Sea level 4620 ft/min (23.5m/s)

Rate of climb at full throttle
height in M.S. supercharger gear: 4700 ft/min at 7000 ft. (23.9m/s)

Rate of climb at full throttle
height in F.S. supercharger gear: 3860 ft/min. at 18,000 ft (19.6m/s).


The Spifire IX with 150 fuel

Max. rate of climb in M.S. gear (radiator flaps open) :5080 ft/min up to 500 feet (25.8m/s)
Max. rate of climb in F.S. gear (radiator flaps open): 4335 ft/min at 11,400 feet (22.0m/s)
Max. rate of climb in F.S. gear (radiator flaps shut): 4750 ft/min at 11,400 feet (25.1m/s)


The 109G-6 is in trouble./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Even the K-4 will have a hard time climbing away.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-09-2003, 08:41 PM
Hmm...

Berlim Map...allies had bases in western germany by that time...spitfires flew as FiBos...why not in the Berlin area?

=> even the "not EF related" XIV fits in /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.chrissi007.de/jabog32)

Online unterwegs als I/JG68Toryu

Come As You Are !

http://www.jg68.de.vu