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View Full Version : Tempest vs. FW190D-9 (44) what am I doing incorrectly?



sukebeboy
09-27-2006, 06:11 PM
I had a bad night last night. Got shot down 4 times in a row by D-9s and only got in position to get a shot off twice.

Now if they had a good altitude or speed advantage, I wouldn't mind so much but 3 of the 4 fights were pretty much the same. We shot past each other in level flight, head-on, at an altitude of 2500 metres or so.

Reading the data on hardball's Aircraft viewer, I'm under the impression that the Tempest should be able to outclimb and outturn the D-9 but loses out in top speed and overheats more quickly.

After the initial pass, I pulled up and over in an Immelmann while, in two cases, the D-9s did a sharp climbing turn to the right and we'd end up scissoring back and forth while slowing descending towards the deck. In the third fight, the D-9 also went up and over, but the end result was the same. In two cases, after scissoring, trying to cut the other guy's turn with banking climbs and dives, I came out the loser. In the third case, I tried to out climb and extend at about a 15% slope, but he was able to catch me and riddle me.

What should I be doing?

In the last case, there were two D-9s so instead of avoiding the head on, I went straight in at the first one and got hits on him (put him out of the fight but he was able to get back to base. I got an a/c destroyed credit in game, but not on the stats page), I then cut prop pitch, closed radiators and went like a bat out of hell for the clouds down below and then for my base. I got caught about 500m from by base and got riddled.

Kuna_
09-27-2006, 06:53 PM
FW-190D is generally fastest aircraft on late war servers, only few aircraft have similar capabilities. The P-47, Mustang and P-51. P-47 except in flat turn doesn't have any major advantages if any over FW-190D, P-51 because of ridiculously low climb abilities and doggy acceleration is out of question in close combat, while Mustang beats FW-190 in close combat.
To summarize: best two aircraft to match FW-190D in 1 v 1 combat are Tempest and Mustang Mk.III.

But, you were saying that FW-190D actually outmanouvered your Tempest which is really funny. In such fights FW-190 (any late type) simply can not match Tempest.

Sometimes I even outmanouvered Bf-109s too with Tempest. Magnificent aircraft.

Anyhow for ANY kind of relevant help on what exactly did you do wrong there you should have posted your track. Everything else is hear-say, shots in the dark.

mynameisroland
09-27-2006, 06:59 PM
Tempest is porked, try flying Mustang III or P51D instead. D9 is just too good <span class="ev_code_RED">in the hands of a decent pilot</span> . imo

VW-IceFire
09-27-2006, 07:01 PM
Don't fight the Tempest...and it won't fight you. You should be able to pull tighter and turn quicker over a short period of time. If you start pulling for a long time (greater than 90 degrees) then both planes are pretty even in any manuever. Make your manuevers short and sharp. Dora and Tempest are about as evenly matched for performance in all aspects as you'll find in this sim. But both require energy advantage to properly defeat the other. If you're defensive then the advantage is hugely in his favour...if your offensive then its in your favour. Its not as even as if you're two turn fighters locked in a turn.

SithSpeeder
09-27-2006, 10:41 PM
Got track?

I learned an important lesson about fighting D9's...don't try to scissor with them (superior roll rate). In a Spit +25, I was getting out scissored and after about three turns he went from being in front of me to being behind me and killing me (3 or 4 times in a row...very frustrating!). I asked for advice from MOH_Apollo--he simply said do a slow climbing turn and he can't keep up with you.

Sure enough, next time around when he was on my six, I climbed in a gentle left turn and he couldn't bring his guns to bear. My E continued to increase until he fell away, that's when I rolled in and pounced. He tried one more time with the same result. He stopped after that, claiming the "Uber +25 was overmodelled" (which may or may not be true).

I'm not sure if it would work in a Tempest. Maybe get a bud to try it with you in a room?

EDIT: OK, IL2 compare (old version) shows that the TempestV is completely outclassed by the D9 in Max TAS, ROC, Max ROC vs Alt, and Turn time. Pick a different plane (Spit IXs seem to do better in many things except top speed)?

* _54th_Speeder *

HellToupee
09-27-2006, 11:27 PM
D9 climbs quite a bit better, especially above 2000meters where tempest climb falls off. Temp turns faster at lower speeds, in dives they generally pull away from you with ease tempest feels very slow in dives.

sukebeboy
09-27-2006, 11:36 PM
This is what I found. The few times where I would begin outturning him, he'd climb at at a faster rate than me and turn turn that height into speed and get on my 6.

As for diving, I find that I can generally catch a D9 in a steep dive by cutting prop pitch to 75%. If the dive remains shallow, he generally picks up speed faster.

faustnik
09-28-2006, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by sukebeboy:
This is what I found. The few times where I would begin outturning him, he'd climb at at a faster rate than me and turn turn that height into speed and get on my 6.

As for diving, I find that I can generally catch a D9 in a steep dive by cutting prop pitch to 75%. If the dive remains shallow, he generally picks up speed faster.

That matches with what I've seen from the Dora end of that fight. The D9's climb ability gives it the advantage in vertical maneuvers. I think all the Tempests that I ended up in 1 on 1s with online made the mistake of entering a vertical DF. It's sounds like you did the right thing by trying to lure the Dora into a horizontal turning fight. Don't feel bad about it though, with the model of Tempest that we have in PF, you should be fighting Fw190A8s or at best A9s. We don't have the version (as far as power levels) that saw a lot of combat against Doras.

WOLFMondo
09-28-2006, 02:08 AM
I think you need to set your hard deck height. 2500m is not a good height for a Tempest. I don't know about this sim but IRL the Tempest V Series I w/Sabre IIA at 9lbs is best at 6000ft and 18,000ft. It looses allot of power in between but at those heights your faster than the Dora.

Can't add much more than has been said. I would say don't ever getinto a rolling manouver with a Dora, nothing can match it.

Scen
09-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Got track?

I learned an important lesson about fighting D9's...don't try to scissor with them (superior roll rate). In a Spit +25, I was getting out scissored and after about three turns he went from being in front of me to being behind me and killing me (3 or 4 times in a row...very frustrating!). I asked for advice from MOH_Apollo--he simply said do a slow climbing turn and he can't keep up with you.

Sure enough, next time around when he was on my six, I climbed in a gentle left turn and he couldn't bring his guns to bear. My E continued to increase until he fell away, that's when I rolled in and pounced. He tried one more time with the same result. He stopped after that, claiming the "Uber +25 was overmodelled" (which may or may not be true).

I'm not sure if it would work in a Tempest. Maybe get a bud to try it with you in a room?

EDIT: OK, IL2 compare (old version) shows that the TempestV is completely outclassed by the D9 in Max TAS, ROC, Max ROC vs Alt, and Turn time. Pick a different plane (Spit IXs seem to do better in many things except top speed)?

* _54th_Speeder *


Apples and Oranges my friend. The Spit +25 with it superior climb and turn ability can't be compared to the Tempest we have in the game.

Against the D9 as someone else mentioned keep him more in the horizontal and remember you're shooting the best 20mm in the game. You scratch his paint he's going to lose a lot of his performance.

I agree with another comment that was made. The Tempest vs the D9 is a very tough match up.

JG27_CaptStubing

Kernow
09-28-2006, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
EDIT: OK, IL2 compare (old version) shows that the TempestV is completely outclassed by the D9 in Max TAS, ROC, Max ROC vs Alt, and Turn time.
Yes, the old IL-2C did indeed show that, but that was for the old AI Tempest. The newer version shows they are a lot more evenly matched.

The best height for the Tempest is just over 2000 m or about 7000 ft. This coincides with the sc gear change on the Dora, which is a low point in performance, so the Tempest can outrun the Dora at around this altitude, but only by a little. Below about 5000 ft the Dora is faster, but again, not by much.

Although the Tempest turns a bit better the Dora can match it with use of flap. It's only in a sustained turn under 200 mph with combat flap that the Tempest finally outturns the Dora. According to IL-2C it can also outturn the later 109s under the same circumstances. But slow, horizontal turn-fighting is a last resort - or should be.

They're very closely matched below 10 000 ft. Tactical advantage and SA are everything.

p1ngu666
09-28-2006, 06:04 PM
in combat, the tempest requires u to drive it like u stole it.

Kernow
09-29-2006, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
in combat, the tempest requires u to drive it like u stole it.
And use 'WEP' as standard not an emergency setting. You can't get anywhere near climb power without the WEP on. WEP & 90/90 gives climb rpm and boost and you won't o/heat with rad 6. Makes sense as the climb/combat power setting had a 1 hour limitation. At speed you won't o/heat at that setting with the rad closed. Even the infamous Tempest o/heat at max power is about right; you can go about 5 mins from applying full power to getting engine damage, and the emergency power setting had a 5 min limit. I think the problem is that most other aircraft are modelled a little more sypathetically. Nevertheless, if you save emergency power for emergencies and refrain from melting your engine just to get a shot, then you generally have enough time to escape. Without WEP, 100% pp merely gives you the rpm (3150) recommended for 'flying at reduced speed' (Pilots' Notes).

I've asked before, but I'll waste my time again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif: what is WEP supposed to be on the Tempest? As far as I can tell the real Tempest attained max power simply by putting propellor speed control and throttle fully forward. No magic switches.

One other thing, if the real WW2 Tempest (or Hurri) had an ASI calibrated in knots, why the hell did they write the Pilots' Notes in mph?

whiteladder
09-29-2006, 04:09 AM
Simple thing often over looked is the respective fuel states, hauling round 50% fuel while the other guy started with 25% can make a difference.

Might not be the case here but worth bearing in mind.

robban75
09-29-2006, 06:35 AM
The D-9's performance is seriously hampered between 2000 and 3000 meters, lacking 20-30km/h in top speed, and several m/sec in climb rate, due to a bug that's been present for quite some time now.
The Tempest is 10-15km/h too slow between 2000m and 6000m, so that should make the D-9 bug less noticable, but the Tempests climb rate is 400-900ft/min too fast between sea level and 10,000m. It only matches real life climb rates at 4000m.

Overall, they are still quite evenly matched.