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View Full Version : About offline AI dogfight - close in/ B&Z toggle??



pugo3
09-20-2011, 06:08 PM
I made this inquiry some years back when I first purchased Il-2 1946 after flying offline for several months, and thought I'd at least put it out there again seeing that the patches with improvements keep coming! I haven't been able to spend the time on the forum I would like so please forgive me if this has been talked to death already [didn't find it in a search]: Is it possible to include a toggle option in the set up to have the option of close in 'twist and turn' combat, B&Z, or random (with 3-way toggle)? I personally enjoy close in, but I've read enough postings to understand that many live for B&Z. I mostly fight the Japanese fighters as they tend to be the most aggressive and stay in a tight combat, whereas the Russian aircraft seem to be 'runners' and the American P-51 and P-47 are never available for anything except B&Z. While B&Z tactics were frequently used, the imperatives of protecting bombers, or later in the war protecting Fighter bombers and gound columns resulted in the need for the latter to engage rather than fly off and B&Z at their whim.

I've found that if I fight any AI aircraft whose performance is greater than the one I'm flying, it will not engage in classic dogfighting, but always climbs away to begin the B&Z, and my only option is Il-2 'Joust'. This prevents one from ever knowing how the planes compare in close while flying offline. I hope you will consider including this option in the future at some point, as it would greatly increase the quality of the AI offline experience for those wish to see how the aircraft compare in close in fighting while flying offline. Thanks for all the great work, love Il-2 and would love to see this feature in the game.

K_Freddie
09-21-2011, 12:22 AM
If you think of it, the AI is programmed to use it's strengths against yours.. which makes RL sense.

If your target BnZs
===================

If you want the AI to attack you immediately, turn 90 degrees to the AI's flight path - This get's it 'very excited'.

To counter an AI BnZ you can..
a) Try a head on - Not a good idea as the AI never misses in this situation. If you can manage a long distance, accurate shot and a quick turn out, good, but it never works well.

b) Turn away from the AI and as it attacks, go into an ever-tightened turn so it just cannot get a bead on you. At close range it'll break off the attack and go straight. At this point you 'quickly' turn onto him taking a quick burst (You only have time for one shot - make it count). If you hit it, it'll will break off the engagement - follow it until it cannot outpace you and this is when it will start dogfighting. This is not that exciting as the game was over when you hit it first time.


If your target TnBs
===================

Use the AI's tactics above. Never get into a TnB with a Zero (unless you're also in a Zero).

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

RegRag1977
09-21-2011, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by pugo3:
While B&Z tactics were frequently used, the imperatives of protecting bombers, or later in the war protecting Fighter bombers and gound columns resulted in the need for the latter to engage rather than fly off and B&Z at their whim.



Hi Pugo3,

That is not completely correct: AFAIK Pokryshkin greatly improved Russian Air forces tactics by using a BZ type of approach in every possible situation including the covering of ground units.

"Pokryshkin's new tactical method brought changes to the old way, which rigidly outlined the parameters of the mission of providing close air support for ground forces in a specific area during the mission. No deviations in flight were allowed! The aircraft arrived at the specified zone in a tight formation and began to orbit the area at a low speed. The pilots called this "riding the carousel", basically chasing their own tails in the sky. They flew in this pattern, which yielded the initiative to the enemy, on a regular basis. The enemy did not interfere and took advantage of the superiority it offered him: using altitude and the speed it provided, he swifly attacked these Soviet formations, and, as a rule, inflicted heavy losses.

To replace the "carousel", Pokrishkin suggested another combat formation upon a patrol's arrival in the zone of probable encounter with the enemy. This new formation was a "bookshelf" of pairs of fighters deployed towards the sun, one pair above the other (in two to four tiers).
[...]
Pokryshkin also advocated a different approach to the area of combat actions. The patrol should climb to an altitude somawhat above the specified mission altitude, increase speed, and enter the zone of coverage at high speed and slightly decreasing altitude. If there were no enemy aircraft in the vicinity, the aircraft had sufficient momentum to climb back up to altitude. This maneuver had to be repeated over and over until an enemy target appeared. The Airacobras traced an arc in the sky like an immense pendulum, its convex arc oriented to the ground. Using this unique method of coverage, the patroling aircraft were always able of making a lightning "eagle strike" on enemy aircraft."

Dmitry Loza in "Attack of the Airacobras", (p.50).

pugo3
09-21-2011, 12:33 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by K_Freddie:
If you think of it, the AI is programmed to use it's strengths against yours.. which makes RL sense.

I understand the IL-2 programmed AI as you state, my point is that combat situations didn't always allow for such perfectly planned responses, but this aside I am simply suggesting that the option be incorporated into future renditions or patches for one to have the ability to see how a close in fight would go with different combatants. We have all read of these account yet are not able to experience them with Il-2 in its present form, a real loss. And I am well versed in the contrivances one must presently employ to combat the 'Super uber AI' format. My response has been to simply fly against AI that will actually dogfight the aircraft I fight with, and use other Combat Flight simms for those I cannot engage, ie the P-51 and P-47. Just hoping Ubisoft might perhaps think to offer this option.

pugo3
09-21-2011, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pugo3:
While B&Z tactics were frequently used, the imperatives of protecting bombers, or later in the war protecting Fighter bombers and gound columns resulted in the need for the latter to engage rather than fly off and B&Z at their whim.

Hi Pugo3,

That is not completely correct: AFAIK Pokryshkin greatly improved Russian Air forces tactics by using a BZ type of approach in every possible situation including the covering of ground units....





I know of these Russian tactics, above all using their greatly superior numbers and fine late war fighters to full advantage. And I have read of late war, final months P-51 pilot accounts, where he related how he stayed up high and swooped down and right back up, certainly the correct action for a war almost over and no real need to look for any combat that gave any advantage to the enemy.

My suggestion is simply to allow one the opportunity to compare the aircraft in close in dogfight encounters, which as I described are not available if ones opponent AI aircraft's performance is greater. My statement regarding the imperatives was directed more to the Western front situations - combat accounts abound on both sides describing exhaustive close in 'twist and turn' battles, yet we are not able to ever know this with the present AI bias for B&Z.

As I stated, we are left with a Flight simm more appropriately named, "Il-2 Joust", with the very unrealistic additions of overamped AI with modern computer aided gunsights - becomes tiresome very quickly. A toggle option would be a great thing for many of us who feel as I do. Just a request, no offense meant, the game is a great combat flight simm even as it stands.

pugo3
09-21-2011, 01:04 PM
If your target TnBs
===================

Use the AI's tactics above. Never get into a TnB with a Zero (unless you're also in a Zero).

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have no trouble with Zeros in TnB, actually a relatively easy kill, whereas the Oscar is FM as a Tiger! I find the Japanese late war fighters the most rewarding for close in, as they engage and are fun, 'why-I-fly' fights for me. The Oscar is a real fun mix it up AI for anyone looking for close in challenge.

K_Freddie
09-21-2011, 04:02 PM
I think the AI in most games are 'dumbed down', so encouraging (another adjective would be 'Forcing') you to play online (@#$%@#% steam) to encounter RL adversaries. This has it's network and steam problems.

On the other hand for the developers to program AI is beyond their capabilities as this is a field all of its own. IL2 does fairly well in this. It is limited but it's challenging for the newbee, and for the 'ace' - a piece of cake.

A toggle would be good. maybe Team-D might be able to do this

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

RegRag1977
09-21-2011, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by pugo3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RegRag1977:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pugo3:
While B&Z tactics were frequently used, the imperatives of protecting bombers, or later in the war protecting Fighter bombers and gound columns resulted in the need for the latter to engage rather than fly off and B&Z at their whim.

Hi Pugo3,

That is not completely correct: AFAIK Pokryshkin greatly improved Russian Air forces tactics by using a BZ type of approach in every possible situation including the covering of ground units....





I know of these Russian tactics, above all using their greatly superior numbers and fine late war fighters to full advantage. And I have read of late war, final months P-51 pilot accounts, where he related how he stayed up high and swooped down and right back up, certainly the correct action for a war almost over and no real need to look for any combat that gave any advantage to the enemy.

My suggestion is simply to allow one the opportunity to compare the aircraft in close in dogfight encounters, which as I described are not available if ones opponent AI aircraft's performance is greater. My statement regarding the imperatives was directed more to the Western front situations - combat accounts abound on both sides describing exhaustive close in 'twist and turn' battles, yet we are not able to ever know this with the present AI bias for B&Z.

As I stated, we are left with a Flight simm more appropriately named, "Il-2 Joust", with the very unrealistic additions of overamped AI with modern computer aided gunsights - becomes tiresome very quickly. A toggle option would be a great thing for many of us who feel as I do. Just a request, no offense meant, the game is a great combat flight simm even as it stands. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand now what your request is about, and i must say that i find it really interesting: looking at what Ai would do in such situations where it would have to fly very agressively no matter what the plane is.

What would be nice is to see AI sometimes doing the fatal noob mistake of dogfighting with a better turner for instance, at rookie and at average skill level instead of flying straight like zombies waiting to be destroyed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Treetop64
09-21-2011, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by pugo3:
I've found that if I fight any AI aircraft whose performance is greater than the one I'm flying, it will not engage in classic dogfighting, but always climbs away to begin the B&Z, and my only option is Il-2 'Joust'. This prevents one from ever knowing how the planes compare in close while flying offline. I hope you will consider including this option in the future at some point, as it would greatly increase the quality of the AI offline experience for those wish to see how the aircraft compare in close in fighting while flying offline. Thanks for all the great work, love Il-2 and would love to see this feature in the game.

It only make sense that the AI, or a human opponent for that matter, would employ tactics best suited to the machine being flown. BnZ may not be as entertaining, dynamic, or sporting as turn-fighting. However, as long as he's smart enough to not fight by the other guy's rules (someone in machine suited to high-alpha turn fighting), BnZ does allow one to maintain the initiative in the fight.

What the AI does only makes sense in this regard; it flies to it's machines strengths, as others have already stated. Deal with the situation dynamically, instead of wanting to switch on "stupid mode" for the AI...

Besides, what do you think the different AI skill levels are for?

pugo3
09-22-2011, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Treetop64:

It only make sense that the AI, or a human opponent for that matter, would employ tactics best suited to the machine being flown. BnZ may not be as entertaining, dynamic, or sporting as turn-fighting. However, as long as he's smart enough to not fight by the other guy's rules (someone in machine suited to high-alpha turn fighting), BnZ does allow one to maintain the initiative in the fight.

What the AI does only makes sense in this regard; it flies to it's machines strengths, as others have already stated. Deal with the situation dynamically, instead of wanting to switch on "stupid mode" for the AI...

Besides, what do you think the different AI skill levels are for?

As I stated above, I am aware regarding the merits of B&Z and that it was used by all participants. However, it is also true regarding the historical facts I presented re combat imperatives, ie, protect bombers, fighter bombers and troop columns from immeninent and immediate threat, as well as the pilots individual decisions and adrenalin induced aggressiveness at the moment that resulted in classic dogfights. Historical accounts abound re the fact of close in dogfights mode of combat being just as prevalent as B&Z. I am not requesting that the AI not employ B&Z, simply that those of us playing offline might be able to test the aircraft against each other in close in fighting, hence my recommending a 3 way toggle, B&Z, T&B, or random. This is not "stupid mode" as you have said, merely a desire to realize the aircrafts potential if the combat presented itself in this mode as was historically the case.

My experience has been that using the various AI skill levels does not induce the opponent AI to dogfight, merely fly somewhat less aggressively, and it appears to diminish the AI's computer aided shooting. It sometimes goes too soft; they fly by too slow and become a target drone; not what I'm wanting - this would be your "stupid mode" you suggested.

Fly any late war fighter you like against the Ki-43A Oscar, 20 - 30% fuel to speed things up a bit. He'll go after your throat. Now, switch over to an AI P-51 - no dogfight possible at any skill level. This is a great loss, and could be seemingly easily remedied. Again, I simply fly my preference on IL-2 and use other flight simms for the non-engaging AI aircraft on IL-2. Just a request that would greatly improve the AI experience for many.