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WTE_Wombat
01-20-2006, 07:25 PM
Hi guys.

Are there any tables available showing the Corner Velocities of the flyable aircraft?

I've found several conflicting ones for Warbirds but not for any version of IL2FB.

Thanks in advance.

Stigler_9_JG52
01-20-2006, 11:07 PM
Whenever I see people looking to 'corner velocities' in an attempt to wheedle every last bit of performance out of their favorite aircraft (as opposed to learning more general and valuable lessons as basic maneuvering, Situational Awareness and knowing the quirks of your planes AND the enemy plane you're facing at the time)....

I'm always reminded of a quote by a true hotshot American pilot (I think it was Boyd, or Boyington or maybe Yeager), and I paraphrase rather than directly quote...

"You take one of those pilots who flys with a slide rule and put him up against just a good pilot and he'll get his **** kicked every time".

How the hell are you going to win a tough dogfight when your eyes are glued to your speedometer to make sure you stay locked at your corner velocity to make the most efficient turn you can???? What if your turn requires some vertical component to it to get you the position you need to fire or to avoid being fired at? A climb means your speed will tend to be below your perfect corner velocity, and a dive component means it'll tend higher.

I'd think that many other factors will determine what happens in the fight than how often you stayed glued exactly on a corner velocity speed and peformed a PERFECTLY coordinated turn at all times.

Hope you find what you're looking for, data-wise, but I'm just saying... I'd raher know the ins and outs of energy fighting in general, and know the threat levels of every plane within 5 km right now than to be able to recall the exact corner velocity in the plane I'm flying.

WTE_Wombat
01-21-2006, 03:44 AM
Thank you for that incredibly informative put-down.

I'll answer you with a quote, and one that I know who to attribute to:

"Know and use all of the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ***".

Lieutenant Dave "Preacher" Pace, USN, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School Instructor.

Longitude
01-21-2006, 04:48 AM
Stigler:
Which category do you put yourself in, ace?
Numbers man - obviously not.
Or a good pilot?

You certainly are not a gentleman (or maybe you are a girl?).

He who Eat Roots and Leaves just wanted some simple information.

If you cannot share the info with the fellow,
it would be wiser of you to say nothing. As it is now, you have just displayed your rudeness to a fellow enthusiast.

raaaid
01-21-2006, 09:21 AM
you dont need corner velocity with force feeback

the corner velocity of any plane is the exact sweetspot where your joystick starts shaking

Grey_Mouser67
01-21-2006, 09:29 AM
I've never seen anyone post a corner speed chart..I'd love to see one too!

I was told once, corner speed was the speed at which you can turn the fullest without blacking out....the most efficient turning circle.

Tully__
01-21-2006, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
you dont need corner velocity with force feeback

the corner velocity of any plane is the exact sweetspot where your joystick starts shaking
You don't understand the term "corner velocity". Corner velocity (aka best turn speed) is the speed at which the plane turns a full circle in the shortest time when maximum available turn is used. It's usually specified at two speeds, best instaneous turn and best sustained turn. Instantaneous is the speed a which the plane turns the best but is not necessarily able to sustain the turn and speed at the same time. Sustained is the speed at which the aircraft turns best whithout losing speed.

What you're experiencing when your joystick starts shaking is the onset of stall, this can occur at any speed where the aircraft has enough control authority to generate an accelerated stall and is related to control authority, not turn performance.

stansdds
01-21-2006, 09:41 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing such a table. No, not going to memorize it and then follow the exact perameters in a dogfight, but it might be nice knowing what the optimum speed for turns.

raaaid
01-21-2006, 09:46 AM
yes but at least in the game the shaking and the sustained turn speed coincide

i got to out turn four better turning foes using this method in sustained velocity circles

id say that the best sustained turn is achieved in this shaking sweetspot, i get the maximum sustained velocity circle performance with this method

Stigler_9_JG52
01-21-2006, 11:38 AM
Wombat,

That wasn't a putdown, it was just a dose of perspective.

Corner velocity is helpful data, of course, just as much as knowing your stall speed, when you'er likely to snap a plane, how well it dives, etc.

I'm just remarking that I see many others, not just you, who point at corner velocity like it's some golden sweetspot, at the expense of all the other parameters that go into "maneuvering and fighting".

It's all I'm saying.

As for that quote, yeah, that's about half of it. I suppose I was paraphrasing two quotes. There was some guy who said something about agressiveness, I believe, and that's where the "slide rule" comment came into play. He was basically saying he'd rather have a hellbent-for-leather guy flying with him than some guy who knew all the theory and the physics. And we all know how "great" initial tactics and theory were for the US and the Brits right at the beginnnig of WWII. That theory got a lot of guys killed in France, and before Midway. Meanwile, Chennault was initially ignored, and he was the first to figure out how to use the P-40 against the nimble Japanese fighters.

Kernow
01-21-2006, 12:43 PM
I converted the TAS values from the IL2C 1000m turn time graph to IAS and have them available. What raaid says about stick shake may well be correct; I've heard best turn rate for a modern jet (not fly-by-wire) described as pulling to the 'light buffet.'

Nine times out of ten flying at corner velocity is not critical; either you can out-turn your opponent or you can't and that's all you need to know (turning-wise). Sometimes it can help to know whether to avoid or look for a slow speed turning fight (eg 109G-6 can't match Spit IX for best sustained turn, but in a slow speed fight - where the 109 can use combat flap, but the Spit can't - it should out-turn the Spit).

However, there are rare situations where knowing corner velocity and relative turning ability can be useful. The 109G-2 and LaGG-3 (series 29) have very similar turns, but at corner velocity the LaGG can turn quicker than the 109 regardless of what speed the 109 flies. In the past I've used this to win even fights at sea-level in the VP1 server on a few occasions. The 109s presumably expected to win a turning fight (they would win a slow speed one), which is why they entered one in the first place. By holding 300 kph the LaGG can slowly gain on the 109, but pull too hard and you slow down and no longer have any turn advantage. The LaGG gains slowly until the 109 realizes he's losing and tries to run, by which time it's too late and the LaGG gets a shot as the 109 straightens out, or he panics, pulls too hard and stalls into the sea.

Note this is only likely to happen when the fight starts from an even situation (if the 109 is already on your six the extra turn rate is not going to help, as the 109 just pulls harder and bleeds some speed for the turn rate needed to pull lead for a shot). The fight also needs to start at a low altitude so the 109 can't simply dive away. Finally, you need enough time, for if any other enemy aircraft happen along they're sure to shoot you down before you gain on the first 109. Having said all that, it can happen and knowing the corner velocity has helped me on those occasions.

Final word of warning: IL2C hasn't been updated for the last 2-3 patches and since 4.02 I've seen a couple of incredible 'bat turns' from 109G-2s, where the 109 has gone from a position of disadvantge in a steady turn fight to shooting me down in just a few seconds. That was against a P-40M, which, according to IL2C, has a better turn advantage than the LaGG, yet the 109 pulled through an extra ~120 degrees (I was looking across at his top surface, slightly behind his 6-9 line, then after a couple of seconds his nose was on me and in 2 more seconds he was pulling lead and hitting me - all while I'm turning into him at corner velocity). Hack, exploit, bug (or deliberate 4.02 FM change - ~50 deg/sec turn!! - probably not)? I don't know. However, usually the figs from IL2C are a fair guide and I assume these 'bat' turns are unrepresentative, although I think the 109 turn has changed since the last update to IL2C, so I've not tried fighting them this way for a long time.

So, corner velocity, yeah useful info, but there are better ways of fighting. If you like I'll see about putting my numbers into a format that I can post here - but there are a lot of numbers.

Grey_Mouser67
01-21-2006, 01:56 PM
Turning circle...corner speed or turn time is only useful when changing direction (offensive manuever) when you need to do it quickly...if you try to turn "efficiently" with a bandit in gun range on your six, you will likely die.

Turning radius, or instataneous turn, is what most of us are most concerned about...it is about pulling lead or avoiding someone else pulling lead....angles fighting. I see lots of folks talking about sustained turns and which plane can complete its turn in the shortest amount of time etc...turning radius is what allow you to pull lead once your in gun range, turn time allows you to make the most efficient turns when you are not in gun range of someone else....important stuff!

AustinPowers_
01-21-2006, 03:11 PM
Corner speed is connected to instantaneous turn, not sustained.
However the best sustained turn rates will occur near the corner speed.

WTE_Wombat
01-21-2006, 09:21 PM
If you like I'll see about putting my numbers into a format that I can post here - but there are a lot of numbers.


Thank you that will be great and muchly appreciated.

WTE_Wombat
01-21-2006, 09:25 PM
Thanks for the support Longitude and just for info http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif it's Eats Roots SHOOTS and Leaves! I am after all a Combat Wombat! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kernow
01-23-2006, 03:43 AM
You get best climb speed too (sea-level), at no extra cost http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Best climb occurs at a constant TAS, not IAS, so you should reduce speed with height. However, in practice the speed given is close enough at most 'normal' altitudes.

Not everything is included (no figs for some Spit variants, for example). I may also have made some errors. No IL2C figs for P-39D-1, but from Hardball's Aircraft Viewer it seems the D-1 and P-400 are identical and the P-400 is included.

Decode at bottom.

AMERICAN

Carrier Fighters

F4F: 210, 270, 255/245
FM2: 210, 280, 260/250
F4U: 250, 345, 315/305
F6F: 240, 325, 305/290


Buffalo: 205, 280, 260/250

Lightning

P-38J: 270, 345, 340/300*
P-38L: 270, 350, 340/305*

Airacobra

P-39D2: 240, 315, 300/265*
P-39N: 240, 295, 285/255*
P-39Q: 250, 300, 285/255*
P-400/D1: 240, 285, 270/250
P-63C: 260, 345, 330/300*

Tomahawk, Kittyhawk, Warhawk

P-40B/C: 225, 285, 270/250
P-40E: 230, 290, 285/260*
P-40E mod: 230, 290, 285/265*
P-40M: 230, 290, 280/265*

Thunderbolt

P-47D: 260, 350, 320/310

Mustang

P-51: 270, 320, 305/270*

Carrier Bombers

SBD: 180, 230, 215/210


BRITISH

Others

Gladiator: 160, 215, n/a
Hurricane: 220, 250, n/a

Spitfire

Spitfire F.Vb: 220, 255, n/a
Spitfire LF.Vb: 245, 295, n/a
Spitfire VIII: 250, 315, n/a
Spitfire HF.IX: 250, 310, n/a
Spitfire LF.IX: 250, 310, n/a
Seafire F.III: 225, 260, n/a
Seafire LF.III: 245, 280, n/a

JAPANESE

Zero

A6M2: 200, 255, 245/225*
A6M3: 220, 275, 265/245*
A6M5/7: 220, 270, 260/245*

Army fighters

Ki-43-I: 200, 260, 250/235*
Ki-61: 240, 295, 280/260*
Ki-84: 260, 345, 335/315

Bombers

D3A: 190, 205, 185/180

OTHER AXIS

Rumanian

IAR-80/81a: 250, 290, 275/260*

Italian

CR.42: 170, 225, n/a
G.50: 200, 255, 240/230 €" old figs (not included in latest IL2C)

SOVIET

Sturmovik

IL-2 (40/41): 240, 270, 260/245*
IL-2M3: 250, 270, 265/250*
IL-2M early: 230, 265, 260/240*
IL-2M late: 230, 260, 255/235*

Polikarpov

I-153: 175, 235, n/a
I-16 (18): 190, 250, n/a
I-16 (24): 210, 260, n/a

La

La-5: 255, 330, 310/285*
La-5F: 255, 330, 310/285*
La-5FN: 265, 340, 320/295*
La-7: 275, 335, 325/295*

LaGG

LaGG-3 (4): 250, 295, 280/270
LaGG-3 (29): 250, 300, 290/270
LaGG-3 (35/66/IT): 250, 300, 290/260

MiG

MiG-3/3ud: 250, 335, 315/295
MiG-3 AM: 270, 360, 340/320
MiG-3U: 260, 335, 315/290

Yak

Yak-1: 240, 300, 285/270
Yak-1B: 260, 305, 295/280
Yak-3/3P: 270, 300, 285/270
Yak-7/7B: 240, 290, 285/270
Yak-9: 250, 320, 305/290
Yak-9B/D/M: 260, 300, 290/275
Yak-9K: 250, 300, 290/270
Yak-9T: 250, 310, 295/280
Yak-9U/UT: 270, 320, 305/295


GERMAN

Bf-109

Bf-109E-4/4B/7: 235, 280, 280/250*
Bf-109E-7NZ: 235, 290, 290/260*
Bf-109F: 250, 290, 280/265
Bf-109G-2/6: 260, 280, 270/255
Bf-109G-6AS 270, 305, 290/270
Bf-109G-10/14: 270, 300, 290/270
Bf-109K-4: 270, 310, 295/270

Bf-110

Bf-110G-2: 250, 325, 325/275*

Fw-190

Fw-190A-4: 270, 340, 330/300
Fw-190A-5/6: 270, 345, 335/305
Fw-190A-8/9: 275, 350, 345/315*
Fw-190F-8: 260, 350, 345/320*
Fw-190D: 260, 375, 365/330*
Ta-152H-1: 265, 360, 345/315*

Bombers

Ju-87B-2: 180, 245, 235/225*
Ju-87D: 185, 255, 245/240*
Ju-87G-1: 180, 255, 250/235*


DECODE

Ac type: aaa, bbb, ccc/ddd

aaa Best climb speed, kph IAS.
bbb Best sustained turn speed, kph IAS.
ccc Speed at which turn rate with combat flap equals rate in clean configuration, kph IAS.
ddd Best sustained turn speed with combat flap (* denotes better than turn in clean configuration) kph IAS.


Figures apply to only a specific mark where that is specified, eg Ju-87G-1, P-40E mod, otherwise to all sub-variants, eg Ju-87D means D-3 & D-5, F4U means all Corsairs. Although the speeds may be identical, the actual rate of turn / climb may vary for different variants covered by the same entry, eg clipped wing Spitfires match the non-clipped Mk.V, Mk.IX speeds, but the turn rate, in particular, will not be the same. Similarly, the LaGG-3s all share similar figures, but each one performs differently at those speeds. There are many other examples besides Spitfires and LaGGs.

IL2-chuter
01-23-2006, 03:50 AM
"yes but at least in the game the shaking and the sustained turn speed coincide"


If turn speeds are modelled anything like best glide speeds Raaaid is probably correct. A P-47 has a real world best glide of 190mph but in the game it is 120mph, just above stick shake. Climbs used to be just as bad but that was addressed somewhat back in (guessing) 3.04 or so. As a RL pilot I can see there are still many areas that can use improvement and right now best glide speed is near the top for me.

Carry on . . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

WTE_Wombat
01-23-2006, 04:54 AM
Thank you Kernow.

It's very appreciated

Maraz_5SA
01-23-2006, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Kernow:
Best climb occurs at a constant TAS, not IAS, so you should reduce speed with height. However, in practice the speed given is close enough at most 'normal' altitudes.



Are you sure about that?

I thought that best rate of climb was attained at a given IAS. Because best rate of climb is actually attained at a given angle of attack, and angle of attack depends on airflow "perceived" by the wing, i.e. IAS.

Also consider that at, say 3000 m, there is a large difference between IAS and TAS, say if IAS is 250 KM/h, TAS is about 300 Km/h, not something to be neglected.

Unless "normal" altitude for you is around 1000 m, which could actually be your assumption, given the altitude of usual dogfights happening in most servers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maraz

Kernow
01-23-2006, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Maraz_5SA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
Best climb occurs at a constant TAS, not IAS, so you should reduce speed with height. However, in practice the speed given is close enough at most 'normal' altitudes.



Are you sure about that?

... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maraz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty much, yes. I was looking at this a year or so ago and dug out one of my old aerodynamics text books, and I remember seeing a section on climb performance calculations, where it said best climb occurs at a roughly constant TAS. All the pilot handbooks I've seen give a best climb IAS which reduces with altitude - usually quoted as a fixed speed for a certain altitude band.

It's fairly academic really, as it's not possible to constantly maintain the speed accurately if you're looking out enough. Like I said, I use the sea-level IAS at most altitudes. A 'normal' climb is generally to Angels 15-20 and towards the top of that I might reduce the climb speed; above 20k I'd aim to fly a slower IAS to maintain a good climb.

Tully__
01-23-2006, 04:22 PM
I think you'll find that best climb is IAS, though some aircraft manuals specify a slower speed over a certain altitude (usually somewhere from 5000-7000m IIRC). The higher altitude speed was only a small amount slower than the low alt speed, nowhere near enough to account for the change in TAS with increased alt. In fact I suspect for some aicraft that the sea level best climb speed would be below stall speed at higher altitude if it were in TAS.

IL2-chuter
01-24-2006, 03:10 AM
I think technically speaking Vy is measured in CAS and drops with altitude . . . similar to the drop in IAS with altitude. My flight instructer back in '75 said to just hold constant the IAS converted from CAS and it would correct for altitude for you (by "you" I guess I mean "me"). This was for unblown motors that don't normally operate over 8000-10000 ft and would probably work fine in game.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Maraz_5SA
01-24-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
I think technically speaking Vy is measured in CAS and drops with altitude

... but CAS is simply IAS corrected for instrument inaccuracy...

see for instance:
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/aoa.html#sec-ias-aoa

I think that what Tully said makes sense: Vy decreases with altitude (slightly) but this has nothing to do with the IAS drop with altitude (with constant TAS).

Maraz

TacticalYak3
01-24-2006, 11:42 AM
Not one for memorizing lots of data, or keeping it handy while playing. However, been considering corner speeds for some time, which has reinforced the need to convert speed to altitude prior to making a sharp turn.

Instead of memorizing all the data (if you like flying a variety of planes), it is more helpful to generalize the plane sets. Take Russian planes, for example, most turn more efficiently @300-330 km/hr. Keep this in mind when flying Yaks & LAs.

In the end, it's always the same keys that unlock the treasure chest - Experience & Situation Awareness.

Experience, among other things, brings a deeper appreciation of energy usage, and knowing where folks are and likely will be is paramount to success and survival. Knowing your plane and your enemy's ride is all part of the same equation.

TS!

raaaid
01-24-2006, 01:18 PM
yes but do you apply sins and cosins to this data when you have a vertical component?

the key for sustained turn is holding the stick on the sweet spot when it starts shaking

why to memorize the cornering speed when you can obtain it straight away with this method?

"i work for a force feedback company"XD

IL2-chuter
01-24-2006, 01:21 PM
... but CAS is simply IAS corrected for instrument inaccuracy...


That's it exactly.

"Also all the performance parameters ( the "numbers") for an aircraft €" best rate of climb, best angle of climb, best glide angle etc €" require it to be flown at a particular aoa, for that weight, and thus a particular IAS. Or more accurately a particular calibrated airspeed or CAS and that particular CAS does not change with altitude, as TAS does, only with weight." http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule2.html

There's more to it then that . . . anyway.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

oh-rip
01-25-2006, 10:36 AM
Well, "modern" rule of thumb for OK speed in combat: "get to corner velosity and keep it".
They say, you can get most out of your plane when you operate near corner velosity.

I don't know, but I have been told to...

OH-RIP

Kernow
01-26-2006, 12:30 PM
The importance of corner velocity also varies with different aircraft. Looking at IL2C you can see that some ac have a flatish curve where best turn (almost) occurs over quite a wide range of speeds either side of corner velocity (eg, Ki-43, P-40, P-51, Hurricane, Bf-109E), but others have a more pronounced 'point' where turn rate drops off more rapidly as you move away from corner velocity (eg, P-39, MiG-3, Bf-109K).

dugong
01-28-2006, 07:28 PM
I used to have a link to one. I will see if I can find it.

I found something - I don't know what this is but it might be what you want. Whatever it is, I bet it is cool.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/perf.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/%7Epettypi/elevon/gustin_military/perf/perf.html)

idonno
01-29-2006, 03:29 PM
Indicated Air Speed (IAS) is what is read from the airspeed indicator.

Calibrated Air Speed (CAS) is IAS adjusted for installation and instrument error. An aircraft's manual may give certain speeds in CAS, but it would also give the conversion between CAS and IAS, and you would use IAS in flight. I have no idea how this effects in-game performance, since I find it impossible to speculate on how Oleg has handled this in the flight modeling.

Equivalent Air Speed (EAS) is CAS adjusted for compressibility at higher altitudes. As the air's density decreases, it becomes easier to compress. When the air in the pitot tube compresses, it causes the airspeed indicator to show a speed that is higher than the actual airspeed. However, "...with airspeeds up to 200 knots and operating altitudes up to 10,000 feet, compressibility is insignificant" quoted from http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/CAS_EAS.html Even if the sim takes compressibility into account, when it comes to climb, glide, and corner speeds, we can ignore compressibility.

True Air Speed (TAS) is EAS adjusted for the air density decrease associated with increases in temperature and altitude. True airspeed is the speed at which the aircraft is actually moving through the air. If there is no wind, TAS is your speed across the ground.

Normally an aircraft handles relative to its CAS. True airspeed is irrelevant to things like climbing, gliding and turning. True airspeed is how fast any given molecule of air moves across the wing, but in thin air you have to move faster to get the same number of molecules moving across the wing that you would get in more dense air. Since CAS takes the air's density into account, it is the determining factor in how the airplane flys, at least until you're high enough and fast enough for compressibility to become and issue, at which time EAS comes into play.

I realize that a lot of this has already been said here, but I wanted to put it all together.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-05-2006, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Kernow:
*awesome useful data*

Thanks, I'm printing that off right now!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

EPP_Gibbs
02-07-2006, 03:20 AM
It was the experience of many RAF pilots that the best technical fliers, those with a lot of flying experienc, who flew 'correctly' and smoothly and aerobatically were often the first to get shot down...the ones that skidded their planes through the sky erratically, technically flying 'badly', were often the ones to survive.

Do anything smoothly and predictably, and you're turning yourself into a nice steady target. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

EPP_Gibbs
02-07-2006, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by EPP_Gibbs:
It was the experience of many RAF pilots that the best technical fliers, those with a lot of flying experience, who flew 'correctly' and smoothly and aerobatically were often the first to get shot down...the ones that skidded their planes through the sky erratically, technically flying 'badly', were often the ones to survive.

Do anything smoothly and predictably, and you're turning yourself into a nice steady target. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

OldMan____
02-08-2006, 08:47 AM
Just forget Corner Speed! Just go faster! faster and faster!!! If you miss the turn at least you will be in a good situation.


Whith time you can learn to forget the corner too...