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View Full Version : Impossible Stall Recovery - Hurri MkI/II - post patch



XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:22 PM
Hi,

Since the patch, I have been finding it impossible to recover from 90% of all spins while flying the Hurricane MkI and II. (Have not tested in other aircraft)

Height has been in the region of 7-8K (sometimes 10K) so I have plenty of height, speed in stall has ranged from 60 to 210, plenty of variation there, and I have used the correct spin recovery techniques and even gone as far as switching off engine and dropping flaps as was suggested by someone in general disc.

Also, post patch the spins have all been very flat, whereas they were a lot steeper before hand.

My question is this: Is this realistic?

I would have to say no, as I firmly believe you could recover from a spin esp at these heights, although I don't fly in RL, but me Dad (bless him) who is a pilot says it's not realistic. And I believe him over a game

Oh, Im somewhat of an expert on spins as I seem to end up in on quite often :-)

What are your feelings about this? Is it just me? Is the Flight model wrong about spins, should I submit a bug report?

Thank you for all your help,



Cpt-Madcowz
Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:22 PM
Hi,

Since the patch, I have been finding it impossible to recover from 90% of all spins while flying the Hurricane MkI and II. (Have not tested in other aircraft)

Height has been in the region of 7-8K (sometimes 10K) so I have plenty of height, speed in stall has ranged from 60 to 210, plenty of variation there, and I have used the correct spin recovery techniques and even gone as far as switching off engine and dropping flaps as was suggested by someone in general disc.

Also, post patch the spins have all been very flat, whereas they were a lot steeper before hand.

My question is this: Is this realistic?

I would have to say no, as I firmly believe you could recover from a spin esp at these heights, although I don't fly in RL, but me Dad (bless him) who is a pilot says it's not realistic. And I believe him over a game

Oh, Im somewhat of an expert on spins as I seem to end up in on quite often :-)

What are your feelings about this? Is it just me? Is the Flight model wrong about spins, should I submit a bug report?

Thank you for all your help,



Cpt-Madcowz
Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:24 PM
I think we saw, in past, too little number of stalls. I think in reality, a plane is far easier to stall than is depicted in FB 1.0.

I think it's a good move, making planes harder to fly -> seems more realistic for non-RL-pilots. practise, practise, practise and then practise some more /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(oh btw; maybe you get confused between stalls and spins, spins should be very hard to recover from, sometimes even impossible. Stalls however, are far easier to recover from.)



Message Edited on 08/29/0301:26PM by Fresshness

Hunter82
08-29-2003, 12:25 PM
drop flaps,chop throttle, opposite rudder, and depending on height nose down as much as possible.....flat spins are hard to recover for anyone.

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:45 PM
I was always taught to leave the throttle alone. It really depends on the plane and the nature of your spin. Sometimes increasing power will help you break it, other times it will only worsen it. Dropping flaps should only be a last resort (but I have to drop them in P-40M spins). Put in full aileron against the direction of the spin. Also, though I haven't found this necessary in FB, if none of the above will break the spin, rock the elevator back and forth and try to build up and oscillating pitch movement that will get that nose down far enough to break the stall.

Now I gotta go try spinning some Hurris!

-Bill

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:54 PM
I can recover flat spins very easy in the Hurricane with rudder only, even at low level.

I am really happy with my new CH USB Rudder pedals. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:59 PM
I think the most important thing about spin recovery is to execute it IMMEDIATELY. Those 1/10ths of a second you hesistate allow it to develop more fully and make recovery more difficult and time-consuming. Pop that stick and rudder asap.

-Bill

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 01:07 PM
Thanks for your input,

Im ok with stalls, can recover from them easily, and I use them as an evasion technique when under fire (not always intentionally) but its this flat/shallow spin where my plane is slowly dropping from 10K and I can not recover despite using the exact same techniques that Hunter posted.

I agree that the planes seem more realistic to fly now after the patch and it's not the degree of difficulty that I have a problem with, just these spins.

Surely a plane from that height would be able to recover?

Again the evidence from my long suffering father says it would, and when he played the game for the first time this week, he immediately said the flight model was wrong with regards to spins. Now, he has never flown a Hurricane but has flown a large variety of planes.

So, I'm not questioning the difficulty and I in no way want a return to the Hurricane with built in anti gravity drive, but I still think the spin FM is wrong.

thanks for your help,



Cpt-Madcowz
Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 01:18 PM
Funny though. I flew Hurri in 1.0 and it was an UFO. I changed to Axis planes (which were easy to stall and spin) and in 1.1 checked the hurri.
I found it difficult to stall or spin the plane at all (must be due to the experience with these german birds) but stall recovery for every plane seems to be quite easy.

My used technique is: determinde spin direction. Apply ailerons into the direction of the roll or spin, apply reverse rudder. that's it. So far I din't encounter a situation where this didn't help.
Strange...

I was flying the hurri lastly and had no problem (full real settings) but again maybe due to my fear of spinning it I don't encounter the same situation as you.. Got track ?

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 01:19 PM
I'll haveta try the Hurri, so far I've found the few spins I've made easy enough to straighten and I've had to intentionally get into them.

A flat spin is a flat spin. Those are hard to break if you ever do and require different ways than rolling type spins.

For me it is never just make a set move and hold it. I try to change the state of flight/tumble into either what I want or something I can get there from. Slowing down the spin is one of the first things unless it is already slow. To that end I cut the power so as to not add any. Opposite rudder to slow that component. Pushing the nose down hard also works for me in a rolling spin as causing the roll axis to perturb takes a lot of energy out of the spin, like tipping a top or turning a gyroscope does. If you can get a flat spin to waver up and down so the spin axis is waving around then you may do the same thing. Getting the plane to stop spinning however is what I want. From there, if there's not enough speed to fly, I want to be heading downward so I can pick up speed without teh plane wanting to tumble again. I don't try to do more than roll slightly or increase power at that point and once I have speed and some control I am set.

I love when the plane is in a slow, lazy spin with good speed. It is being just over the line and yet having some control and easy to get full control. No good for combat but fun to experience. While there, one overhard maneuver and you find out "what not to do" real quick. How many sims I do remember that you could stop one spin and easily find yourself in another because of not fully recovering speed and control.

A sim where you can get different and full responses during an entire spin evolution and the recovery is somewhat rare. It always used to be canned how the spin went and what you should do. Then the canned stuff was stages where you knew the code was different past certain points, but you had more options for what to do although like in EAW the last stage was always the same (like a top and fast). CFS has lazy spins when I tried but they seemed better modelled. Then there was MiG Alley (very good FM coupled with the best view system I have ever used -- if I could have one wish for IL2 it would be a view system that good!) followed by BoB and now IL2/FB. I feel sure that FB will finish up with a top of the line FM, as perfect as our PC's will allow considering the system load of eye-candy and other elements we also have. The balance of elements after all is more important than the FM alone.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 01:32 PM
Wow,

ok,

I have printed off all the responses here and will try them over the w/end.

It looks like its just me that has more spin than Tony Blair and that I should be able to get out of it (sack Alastair Campbell!!)

Thank you once again for your input and ideas.

regards,


Flying Bovine.
(Spinning into the ground near you)


Cpt-Madcowz
Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

Cpt-Madcowz
Comsa (http://www.comsa.co.uk)



"When the hunter comes, the tiger runs with the deer."

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:45 PM
I did a bunch of spins (left and right) in both the Hurri I and IIc. The plane is easy to get out of a fully-developed spin. It's actually harder to get it into a spin than out of one.

All I can say is practice, practice, practice.

Good luck!

-Bill

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:58 PM
generaly, there should be no need to touch anything except rudder and down elevator. Touching ailerons just worsen situation. Thing is, that most warbirds are tail heavy, and tend to enter flat spin from regular spin on their own. Becouse of tail heavy, plane wont recovery itself. next isua. If u want to enter flatspin from regular one,. u ad aileron imput. Wing is stalled already in spin, but with ailerons u deepen the stall of one wing. Flaps ad drag, and to break out from spin u need airspeed. So full throttle, full oposite rudder, and full down elevator. I never use anything else, and can recovery from 95% of spins, usualy fail becouse of lack of altitude only. U need all engine power to provide as much air flow to rudder as possible, elseway (without airspeed or propwash) its inexective, so no use of touching it.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 02:53 PM
no stall is impossible just go to 0 trottle immediatly and use opoosite rudder and your ou tof a stall instantly in less then a second. with the 190s p39 mig3 and yaks you dont even have to fight a stall just leave the stick centered and the come out of it right away. very lame i must admit but its a beta, it really makes me wonder how they can screw up fms so much. I would like to see bear and the 1% team do reliable testing of all fb aircraft at least they have real concepts of stick pressure, roll rates, elevator effectiveness climb and dive speeds.


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XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 03:48 PM
most stalls are easily recoverable... spins are much harder to recover from... but flat spins are a definite no-no /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

If you get into a flat spin you have lost all air flow around wings which gives you control and you're falling like a nice heavy rock /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif