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View Full Version : HELLDIVER SBD2c?



aminx
10-15-2004, 03:53 AM
for a while the Helldiver was listed as a plane that would be present in the game as AI at launching and later as flyable since the developers have all the documents relating to the cockpit,can anyone give us the status of this plane?
aminx

jeroen_R90S
10-16-2004, 03:54 AM
*BUMP* for SB2C http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jtasker
10-16-2004, 06:17 AM
Helldiver is a cool looking plane.. but to be honest I'd MUCH rather they expend development resources on enabling the Avenger/Kate for flyable mode before bringing out a second divebomber..then work on other things like a Jill and a Helldiver

VW-IceFire
10-16-2004, 07:51 AM
Helldiver is actually torpedo capable. So it'd be a two for one...not that I wouldn't like to see an Avenger and Kate as well. But as a third option...the Helldiver is a great one.

aminx
10-16-2004, 11:43 AM
as you all know the HELLDIVER replaced the DAUNTLESS in late 1942 to become the main dive bomber of the USN fleet and was present in many campaigns and battles all the way up to OKINAWA.I am sure that all the cockpit documentation and other details must be available to the DEV team.It would be nice to hear from them wether it is coming up in a future patch.
aminx

Nimits
10-16-2004, 12:34 PM
Actually, the Helldiver did not start appearing unitl late 1943, and did not fully replace the SBD on fleet carriers until 1944 (SBDs continued to be used on light and escort carriers as well as by landbased Marine squadrons).

BTW, I have never heard of the SB2C actually carrying a torpedo in combat . . .

VW-IceFire
10-16-2004, 01:55 PM
http://www.acepilots.com/planes/helldiver.html

This site (and others) mentions that the SB2C-1C incorporated the 20mm Hispano and torpedo carrying ability. No idea if it was used in combat...that'd be interesting to find out. I presumed that because the addition was noted that it had been used.

It'd be a great plane to have as a later war supplement. In some ways it was more versatile than the Dauntless...(cannon firepower and I think rockets as well as heavy bomb load and -3 had better range).

In the priority of things...Helldiver should come a bit later. But it'd be good to have.

LeadSpitter_
10-16-2004, 02:07 PM
The

Avenger
Devastator
helldiver
b5n2 Kate

are of major importantance to the pacific theater and become flyable. Hopefully they will be in PF or in the first patch as flying being how important they are

Fliger747
10-16-2004, 02:32 PM
Torpedo tests were started on 30 Nov, 1942 at Quonset pt RI. Further tests were made in jan 1943 at newport RI. Further testing was done at Dalgren in May1943!

In summation, the delivery of torpedos at speeds up to 230 knots was satisfactory. However it took 2 1/2 hours to convert each plane to it's new role, which was deemed unsatisfactory and the SB2C never dropped a torpedo in combat.

Plagerized from "SB2C Helldiver", by P. Smith.

VW-IceFire
10-16-2004, 02:49 PM
Ahh excellent...so never dropped a torpedo in combat. A shame...oh well.

Lead...I very much agree with your list.

Snootles
10-16-2004, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Avenger
Devastator
helldiver
b5n2 Kate <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget the B6N Tenzan "Jill", B7A Ryusei "Grace", and D4Y Suisei "Judy". They should, at the very least, be AI. They should eventually become flyable. What sense does it make to do a late-war dive-bombing mission in a D3A "Val"?

icrash
10-16-2004, 05:52 PM
The Helldiver has an internal bomb bay, How'd they rig it to carry a torpedo? The sad part is there is only one left flying. The bright side is at least I got pictures of it.

Fliger747
10-16-2004, 08:21 PM
The photo that I have of one with a torpedo has it slung mostly beneath, with the nose about even with the cowl ring. A special fairing replaced the bay doors so the torp nuzzled into the bay a little.

owlwatcher
10-16-2004, 09:50 PM
My father had served on a CV during the war. He talked of dumping the SB2c over board.
For what reason I do not know.

Fliger747
10-16-2004, 11:24 PM
Often they would 'deep six' one if it had too much damage. Of course some restorer would give a lot of bux for one right now!

Before the parts pipeline got going Hellcats were turned in for new ones for worn tires! The Navy actually shut Grumman's new production line down to get some parts out of them!

After hostiliies ended, the NZ folks dumped most of their Corsairs overboard, as under 'lend lease', ones left would have to be PAID FOR!

609IAP_Recon
10-16-2004, 11:40 PM
There will be only one torpedo carrying aircraft?

aminx
10-17-2004, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Recon:
There will be only one torpedo carrying aircraft? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

there will be NONE!!!!!!!!thats the whole point of my crusade on the forum.thats what you get.
flyable:
BETTY bombs and torps in free patch
BEAUFIGHTER same
AI
KATE (historic and will never be flyable)
AVENGER
there is rumour that the avenger will become flyable in a patch since they have all the docs.
you wont get the following historic essential planes:
DEVASTATOR
JILL
aminx

aminx
10-17-2004, 12:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
My father had served on a CV during the war. He talked of dumping the SB2c over board.
For what reason I do not know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
CURTISS HELLDIVER SB2C DIVE BOMBER
----------------------------------
the plane(never used as torp bomber) was ridden with electro hydraulic gimmicks that caused a lot of maintenance problems and was considered inferior to the more simple and effective DAUNTLESS,and as a matter of fact the Dauntless went on helping the war effort after 1943 in the pacific.
aminx

Jungmann
10-17-2004, 12:14 AM
May have dumped those Beasts overboard because the pilots hated them so much. Fly your SBDs before you start the the Beast-whine. I bet you'll like them.

Fliger747
10-17-2004, 12:16 AM
If the only 'tor******' we get to start is the 'Debilitator', it suggests that this may start out as an 'early war' sim, to be 'continued'. Not such a bad idea really. The sacrificial lamb of Midway may not be such a popular mount. It's use will require better tactics than were used at the real battle! It was effective in sinking SHOHO at Coral Sea, which was a better example of the fabled 'coordinated attack'.

They will come, and I do like the 'Turkey'.

owlwatcher
10-17-2004, 02:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aminx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
My father had served on a CV during the war. He talked of dumping the SB2c over board.
For what reason I do not know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
CURTISS HELLDIVER SB2C DIVE BOMBER
----------------------------------
the plane(never used as torp bomber) was ridden with electro hydraulic gimmicks that caused a lot of maintenance problems and was considered inferior to the more simple and effective DAUNTLESS,and as a matter of fact the Dauntless went on helping the war effort after 1943 in the pacific.
aminx <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think my father rotated off cause he was attached to a air unit. I think the rotation was after the turkey shoot. The early version were poor in performace and the CVs air group compostion was changing forcing the dive bombers out of the line up. These planes may have been Deep-sixed early in there life span.
Most likly newer models were available in the pipe line had replaced the these quickly.

owlwatcher
10-17-2004, 02:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aminx:
[there will be NONE!!!!!!!!thats the whole point of my crusade on the forum.thats what you get.
flyable:
BETTY bombs and torps in free patch
BEAUFIGHTER same
AI
KATE (historic and will never be flyable)
AVENGER
there is rumour that the avenger will become flyable in a patch since they have all the docs.
you wont get the following historic essential planes:
DEVASTATOR
JILL
aminx <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish some information on the statis of both the torpedo and torpedo planes would or could be let out.
Special note; My father got flight time by being a gunner in the TBF.

Not having the torpedo planes really screws up the attacks on ships.
Was hoping to fly alot with the torpedo planes Betty, Kate, TBF ,Jill not very fond of the TBD.
Just waiting now to see what happens when PF comes out and people can say some thing.

IV_JG51_Razor
10-17-2004, 03:13 AM
I'm really concerned that, quite possibly, the TBF was left AI simply because there isn't enough data to make a flyable Kate, and the decision was made in the interest of play balance. If that is actually what happened, then I am very disappointed. If, as some others would have us believe, we will be getting the TBF cockpit in some later patch, then I will be a very happy camper. But if the virtual IJN is to be deprived the Kate due to lack of accurate enough cockpit data, then again, I will be very disappointed. A good modeler could put together a beautiful cockpit of what it MIGHT have looked like, with instruments and equipment that we will see in the Betty, Zero, Val, or Oscar. This devotion to absolute accuracy on Oleg's part, while admirable, sometimes seems to be an expediant he uses to justify which planes he wants to model, and which ones he doesn't - for whatever reason. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

The exact same thing could be said about all of the important tactical bombers left out of FB, such as the Pe-2, or any number of the others whose designation I can't recall just now. And as far as the difficulty involved in creating a multi-crewed plane, given the choice of being able to fly it with AI only gunners, or not getting to fly it at all, like the field mod IL-2, I'll gladly let the AI do the shooting for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

owlwatcher
10-17-2004, 03:22 AM
Without the torpedo planes is really leaving a keystone planes out of the loop.
Was hoping the Pe-2 would show up in PF or a up date.
Just agreeing with you totally Razor.

BigA21
10-17-2004, 10:29 AM
Just wanted to say what an interesting thread.

OwlWatcher, I hope some day you get your SB2C wish,you must be so proud of your Father.
However, I was under the impression that due to Curtiss design teething problems (Maintenance issues, some structural issues), and the SB2C's stability in a dive configuration that it was the opinion of many crews it was not the equal of the Dauntless until the -4 model. Hence the temptation to push the "Son of a BiXX 2nd Class" overboard.

I agree on the importance of the torpedo plane issue in the Pacific Theater. Hopefully this will come along later as indicated. Personally I don't think just one side should have the single engine torpedo bomber and not the other side... to keep the sim "Balanced".

Also as others here have said, torpedo bombing was not so much about the A/C hauling them toward target as much as the advantages of the Long Lance and the disappointment of the Mk13 torpedos.

I am not sure that these torpedo qualities are (or should be) be modeled in PF.
What I am certain of is the COURAGE displayed by the airmen as they went into dive bombing battle with a plane that was a handfull, or as they risked their lives holding steady and slow to deliver a torpedo they were not sure would even detonate.

Salute to your Father, and them all, OwlWatcher.

BigA

Fliger747
10-17-2004, 11:05 AM
The air gunners had an even higher causulty rate than the pilots! I can see why you would want to fly the "Turkey"!

Another tor****** experiment was slinging a torpedo under the F6F. This to my knowledge (needs more research) was never used in combat.

A consideration was pilot training. Just as dive bombing was a specialty, so was delivery of (expensive) torpedos in an accurate manner. Fighter and dive bomber pilots probably had their plates full enough without trying to take on yet another role.

unseen84
10-17-2004, 11:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IV_JG51_Razor:
And as far as the difficulty involved in creating a multi-crewed plane, given the choice of being able to fly it with AI only gunners, or not getting to fly it at all, like the field mod IL-2, I'll gladly let the AI do the shooting for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that. Whenever I'm flying an Il-2 or a Stuka, I always let the ai do the shooting since I never hit anything when I try it. I would gladly take a TBD, TBF, or Kate where the gunners are ai-only.

As for the Helldiver, it certainly needs to be in the game, but I'd give the Jill and maybe the Judy a higher priority. Since the Dauntless did serve throughout pretty much the whole war, it wouldn't be totally wrong to see them over the Marianas in '44. But the Kate and Val need to have their late war replacements, the Jill and Judy, in the game.

adlabs6
10-17-2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
The

Avenger
Devastator
helldiver
b5n2 Kate

are of major importantance to the pacific theater and become flyable. Hopefully they will be in PF or in the first patch as flying being how important they are <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there any confirmation that these planes will be added as flyable? I'd like to know they are if I'm going to buy PF.

icrash
10-17-2004, 05:14 PM
You'd think by now I'd remember to beg/bribe my way into getting cockpit shots of some of these planes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif I had a shot at both the Avenger and the Helldiver. My Nikkon 35MM takes great pics. Maybe next time but not likely on the Helldiver, only one left http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Fliger747
10-17-2004, 05:54 PM
Who has the last one? My SB2C book has photos of CAF in the process of restoring one. I wasn't sure that the one on the Intrepid was a real airplane, looked like a possible mockup.

just turned the page and it happens that the Intrepid plane was a 'replica' constructed by Starr Aircraft of california. There is one on display in Bangkok and also in Athens (Greece)! West Texas CAF has a flying one.

tedinaz
10-17-2004, 06:06 PM
Here's a few links, but the SB2C onboard Intrepid is definetly a shell of some kind:

http://www.sb2chelldiver.org/
http://www.acepilots.com/planes/helldiver.html
http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/pmodels/helldiver.htm

I hope it eventually makes it, it was the last purpose built dive bomber in existence, and outlasted the avenger is Navy service. The last squadrons traded their Helldivers in for Skyraiders just before Korea, but the French and italian navies used them well into the 1950's. Helldivers even flew combat missions in support of the beseiged garrison at Dien Bien Phu.

Hope this helps...

aminx
10-17-2004, 11:26 PM
TEDINAZ
---------

thanks great links, developers take note,with one still flying there is all the documentation needed to develop same as flyable as well.
aminx

IV_JG51_Razor
10-18-2004, 09:49 AM
I don't think we have a problem of lack of documentation on the part of any of the US Navy planes, with the possible exception of the TBD. I'm concerned that, due to a lack of documentation on for the IJN planes, we may not see the TBF due to play balance issues. I sure hope I'm full of beans on this one. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

FF_Trozaka
10-18-2004, 10:07 AM
I really hate to see lack of historical pics and data used as an excuse to not include the kate, which was a very important early war aircraft. Why not use a bit of creative license and make up a cockpit if u have no pic of it. God knows there will be a million IL2 T's flying around imitating the kate in japanese colors. I don't think any of us would loose any sleep flying a plane that had a fudged cockpit.

S!

Troz, admitted kate whiner

aminx
10-18-2004, 11:44 PM
a pic of the HELLDIVER dive bomber

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/hel.jpg
aminx

IV_JG51_Razor
10-19-2004, 01:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FF_Trozaka:
I really hate to see lack of historical pics and data used as an excuse to not include the kate, which was a very important early war aircraft. Why not use a bit of creative license and make up a cockpit if u have no pic of it. God knows there will be a million IL2 T's flying around imitating the kate in japanese colors. I don't think any of us would loose any sleep flying a plane that had a fudged cockpit.

S!

Troz, admitted kate whiner <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahmen Brother!!

SaQSoN
10-19-2004, 06:13 AM
The Helldiver was planned, but later it was postponded in favour of more Japanese planes. It is still on the "to do" list but in the very end of it. As for making it flyable - I don't know. But at least, we have enough reference for this plane.
When you whine about inclusion of anything in the game, bear in mind, that 1C and Luthier's resources (the financial, time and labour ones) aren't limitless.

Eddie_W
10-19-2004, 06:22 AM
Well said, SaQSoN! One thing I think a lot of people forget is that it takes a lot of time (and therefore money) to build a cockpit 3d model, and once that's done, there's a lot of work required to implement it for use in the sim.

BTW - I'm sorry I've not replied to your e-mail about the Ki yet, SaQSoN - it's been a difficult month.

duffys_tavern
10-19-2004, 06:52 AM
While I agree with others that it does take a lot of time and effort to model new add-on a/c, I also believe that it's discussions like this that make it clear which a/c are most desirable. Sure would be swell to take a shot at flying the "Big Tailed Beast".

SaQSoN
10-19-2004, 07:32 AM
Ok, duffys_tavern, so what you want first:
1.Flyable N1K (three versions, including floatplane);
2.Flyable B5N, B6N, TBD and TBF;
3.Or AI only SB2C?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SaQSoN
10-19-2004, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BTW - I'm sorry I've not replied to your e-mail about the Ki yet, SaQSoN - it's been a difficult month. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NP. I was extremally busy myself, working on the first patch. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tater-SW-
10-19-2004, 07:37 AM
I'd vote for more IJN/AF planes myself. Particularly The kate cockpit, and various twin engine jobs (even just as targets, er, AI <G&gthttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tater

aminx
10-19-2004, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SaQSoN:
Ok, duffys_tavern, so what you want first:
1.Flyable N1K (three versions, including floatplane);
2.Flyable B5N, B6N, TBD and TBF;
3.Or AI only SB2C?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FIRST COME FIRST SERVED !!!and i deserve it!!!
Flyable
TORP BOMBERS
1)TBF
2)B5N
3)TBD
to get started,then:
FIGHTERS
4)NK1's then george.
AI
1)Helldiver, later flyable

Please confirm how long it will take you until we can see them in a patch?

regards
aminx

SaQSoN
10-19-2004, 09:15 AM
N1K-1J and J2M cockpits are in works. Externals are ready.
So they probably will appear sooner than others.
As for the date, when they will appear - I don't know. But surely, they will not be in the first patch.
Other mentioned here planes - I don't know. They ARE in the plans, as many others, including AI army bombers and more AI/flyable fighters and also ships, but yet future of the PF itself is still uncertain, so let's not even speculate on this.
That's all for now. Cause I already told you more, than you should know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

icrash
10-19-2004, 07:41 PM
Fliger, guess the announcer said only one left flying http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Hard to say with the noise of the old warbirds and the "explosions" from the bombing runs. The static pic was not that great but the one on take off and a couple of inflights were nice.

Fliger747
10-19-2004, 10:28 PM
Glad that they are flying it! Bet they check it out even better than Airforce One.