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View Full Version : Are the P-47's right now?



Call_me_Kanno
12-25-2003, 09:42 PM
It was my belief, from reading various posts, that the P-47's were improved but still lacked a little bit in roll rate and stalled in turns too easily (300 to 320 kmp).

While in an online session this evening I made mention of hoping the P-47's were fixed in the Feb. addon and I was jumped from five different people about how they were already where they should be.

The only thing I got to go by is what more experinced folk's post. If the concensus is they are where they should be then that's fine with me.

One thing that made me think they were still off some was a post I read here about how the 1C team has decided to use US data for the US plane's instead of Stalin era data that might have been tainted so as to please that person.

I love FB and it is the only sim I have flown in for ages.

S~Kanno

Call_me_Kanno
12-25-2003, 09:42 PM
It was my belief, from reading various posts, that the P-47's were improved but still lacked a little bit in roll rate and stalled in turns too easily (300 to 320 kmp).

While in an online session this evening I made mention of hoping the P-47's were fixed in the Feb. addon and I was jumped from five different people about how they were already where they should be.

The only thing I got to go by is what more experinced folk's post. If the concensus is they are where they should be then that's fine with me.

One thing that made me think they were still off some was a post I read here about how the 1C team has decided to use US data for the US plane's instead of Stalin era data that might have been tainted so as to please that person.

I love FB and it is the only sim I have flown in for ages.

S~Kanno

aerick2
12-25-2003, 10:50 PM
I'm not the most knowledgeable in this area, but from what I've read I would say that the roll rate is indeed lacking. It is my understanding that at high speeds and high altitude, the P-47 could out-fly just about anything-- this is not true in FB, mostly because of the sub-par roll rate.

I mean, just look at what the improvement in roll rate did to the P-40. It went from being kind of a dog that nobody flew to being a fairly formidable (albeit slow) aircraft. I think that an improved roll rate for the Jug would make a world of difference.

Diablo_777_AVG
12-26-2003, 09:33 AM
Kanno....I think most people who fly the Jug will agree that it still isn't quite right. The roll rate at high speed is still very slow and it does stall pretty easy still. Despite all that it's alot better than it was. I seriously doubt it will be made completely right. I'm talking the D-27 model. The D-10 and 22 models roll nice. I fly the D-27 about 90% of my time online. Be gentle with her and keep your speed high. If you ever get someone on your 6 tho it's really tough to get away, even doing a split S and diving. My opinion....there are alot better pilots of Jugs out there than me tho. Maybe they can give ya some advice.

http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig09.gif

Call_me_Kanno
12-26-2003, 01:20 PM
First off thank's for the responses.

I'm going to except the planes as they are and if any fixing need's to be done the the ground crew will have to do it as I have no knowlege of how to.

I've been thinking on it and here's what I've come up with to rationalize it in my mind. Even though the plane's were manufactured according the same specs and on the same assembly lines not all of them are going to be the same. Heat temperance and streching as well as different cooling rates of different metals during welding will cause performance gains and loses. So if my P-47 is not totaly up to designer specs then I got a plane that had some of the above thing's to occur. It is what it is and I have to find a way to use inside of it's capability.

lol...I often use my imagination to get by. Got to, right?

S~Kanno

VW-IceFire
12-26-2003, 03:07 PM
Its much much much closer to being what it should be than before. The energy retention is excellent and the firepower is great. Roll rate on the D-27 is still a bit slow (SkyChimp can probably give the details) BUT...when you fly with 25% fuel it rolls nearly as well as the D-10 does and you still have an hour of fuel.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Eagle_361st
12-26-2003, 05:01 PM
The P-47 has improved since the 1.0 days. Your analogy is pretty accurate, I love the P-47 and it was the main factor for me to defect from CFS/Janes. And I have never regretted it, once you find the proper way to fly it you can own your opponents. Have fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

SkyChimp
12-26-2003, 05:37 PM
The P-47D-27 roll rate is still wroong. You'll need to get useds to that. Oleg knows its wrong, but has no intention of fixing it.

Also, they gotten "twitchier" IMO since the last Beta. Elevator application appears to result in sudden jumps. Before it was smooth.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Diablo_777_AVG
12-26-2003, 06:07 PM
I've noticed that about the twitchess of teh elevators too Skychimp. I jsut thought it was my flying. Seems like it wants to jump into a stall alot easier now.

http://777AVG.com/sigs/sig09.gif

Cajun76
12-26-2003, 06:19 PM
My elevators were twitchy too, until I refreshed my axis curves in game. The values were still set, but after double clicking each one and saving it was just about back to normal. I also still use the modified curves from the old IL2 days.

Pitch:
0 5 10 17 25 33 43 54 71 100
Roll:
0 3 7 15 25 35 50 66 84 100
Yaw:
0 8 19 29 39 51 62 75 86 100

I keep yaw at 100 all the way across, it seems to work the best for my TM TopGun Afterburner with rudder rocker on the throttle. Your mileage may vary. Hope this helps, good luck and

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my JUG!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop right, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tttiger
12-26-2003, 11:53 PM
I agree, the roll rate has been improved but still not enough. I suggest we continue to squeak our wheel (I love it when people say with such assurance what Oleg is going to do or not do. Have a direct line to him, do ya? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

I wish I had some data for comparison with the real deal. Maybe some of you engineering types could at least accurately measure the roll rate of the Jug at various speeds in FB.

Meanhwile here's a bit of anecdote from a history of the 56th FG that's on line:

"The 56th Fighter Group arrived in mid-January, and set up shop at Kings Cliffe airfield. The pilots arrived before their planes, and occupied themselves in military and non-military activities (such as a drunken bicycle race and shooting up the barracks with a .45). But one day, they heard a loud, distinctive rumble in they sky, and they all raced to the windows, as one pilot shouted out "It's a 47!" Their aircraft had arived.

The RAF fliers helped orient them to combat in the ETO, and on one memorable day, (Robert S.) Johnson out-maneuvered a Spitfire pilot,using the Thunderbolt's superior barrel-roll and diving capabilities to get behind the more agile Spitfire."

Now, I'm not going to say every Jug pilot could out-maneuver a Spit but clearly the Jug was famous for its quick roll rate, on a par with the Corsair.

We ain't there yet but it's sure a better ride now.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

12-27-2003, 12:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is my understanding that at high speeds and high altitude, the P-47 could out-fly just about anything-- this is not true in FB, mostly because of the sub-par roll rate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The roll rate is indeed a bit lacking, but judging from the nuance of this comment I'd say that a lot of people are still going to be disappointed even if the roll rate is fixed.

'Outfly everything' is a very strong word to describe a plane - and also very vague. Just how exactly is the P-47 going to outfly everything if its fast or flies high?

Noticeably, the advantage this plane holds is that the power hardly declines at very high altitudes, typically over 30,000 feet. Does that mean it is going to outturn a plane it cannot outturn at lower altitudes? Or suddenly become more stable in combat maneuvering? Or outroll a Fw190?

Combat at high altitudes, is something very different from what one might expect of lower altitudes. At higher altitudes still contemporary fighters would turn better, maneuver better, and in some cases climb and accelerate better. When a certain plane is behind you, it is behind you regardless of altitude. Being a 'better performer at higher altitudes' is not going to change that. High altitude fights are those of extreme speeds, linear group tactics and lot of patience.

In other words, if you will have trouble meeting a certain fighter at lower altitudes, it means you're going to have the same kind of trouble no matter how high you are. Being high in a P-47, just means that the burden of thin air that effects all planes, is much less. That fact, does not immediately translate itself as a useful tactical advantage.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now, I'm not going to say every Jug pilot could out-maneuver a Spit..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-47 vs Spit incident was brought up in the previous boards, and thoroughly analyzed.

Not withstanding the fact that it took an absolute expert in a P-47(which is at least 40mph faster than the Spitfire introduced in the story) a very long process to setup a crucial reversal, it still must be pointed out that the mock combat was hardly anything to be compared with real life hostile situation.

I can't remember the details of the analysis right now, but from what I remember the Spitfire pilot had at least more than two~three chances to knock Johnson's P-47 out of the sky, had it been real hostile situation.

The important fact that people seem to just brush away in reference to this situation, is Johnson got a momentary reversal in a mock combat, going against a nameless Spitfire pilot.

The instance is hardly a testament to what the plane can do, but rather a testament to what excellent stunts an experienced pilot can pull off with the plane, to gain an unexpected edge in combat, which in very typical conditions people would have deemed impossible, due to its overall lacking stature as a pure dogfighting plane.

In short, it's possible, but its unlikely. That's why we look upon Johnson. I have a feeling that if we give other pilots a chance to demonstrate the same mock combat with Johnson's exact moves practiced in detail, they'd still not be able to do it.

robbiminator
12-27-2003, 06:51 AM
It still seems kinda slow to me and now seems to stall rather easily-or naybe I'm just flying her wrong?

TgD Thunderbolt56
12-27-2003, 07:21 AM
I like it.

I'd like to see it better...but I like it.

http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

VW-IceFire
12-27-2003, 08:00 AM
The one thing the P-47 isn't is slow. Its not a quick accelerator in level flight and it doesn't climb extremely well (although I feel that its a bit better than the P-51) but it really can pick up speed and few can escape. In terms of speed and diving to get away I've found only the P-51 and the FW190D-9 1945 have the ability to do the same kind of high speed dive.

La's fall apart, Yak's fall apart, and Bf 109's can match the speed but can't turn nearly as well at the high speeds. So you've got escape advantages....unless you get caught at low level.

Ultimately the P-47's are great as team fighters - something less seen online in the average dogfight server.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

FW190fan
12-27-2003, 08:32 AM
It sure is easy to shoot down.

Looks like Oleg did a good job. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-G2-33s_small.jpg

pinche_bolillo
12-27-2003, 09:02 AM
here me now and believe me later, if all you guys who complain about poor rates of roll had my big buldging biceps you could muscle the 47 into fw 190 like rolls. I never hear strapping brawny men complain about roll rates :O

Cajun76
12-27-2003, 09:14 AM
In regards to my earlier post, 99% of my recent experiance HAD been with the razorbacks. I started flying the -27 in a campaign, and that thing is much, much more apt to stall with even relatively gentle maneuvers. I can wrap a razorback inside of a 190 at high speeds, but that won't work right now with the bubbletop. I want it fixed, but in the meantime, try the -22. Not twichy and can carry the same load as a -27, if your mudmoving. I prefer A to A, though.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

Meanwhile, in the 20th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my T-Bolt!! It's has 8 .50cals and 2000lbs+ worth of bombs and rockets. Republic's top of the line. You can find this in the Kick A$$ department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Farmingdale, Long Island and Evansville, Indiana. Retails for about $82,997.95. It's got a turbo-supercharger, all metal control surfaces with blunt nosed ailerons, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop Republic. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Anonymous http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Call_me_Kanno
12-27-2003, 10:44 AM
Very good reply's and I'm learning quite a bit.

I'd like to thank Icefire for the 25% fuel tip. I did not know that was still an hour's worth of fuel. I tried it last evening in a MP session a low and behold my -27 actually turned inside of a Zero while at 320 and I was able to get some rounds in before sliding outside of his turn radious. This surprised me as was expecting the usual shudder and spin result.

Thank's again for this tip and the reply's.

S~Kanno

HellToupee
12-27-2003, 07:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
Now, I'm not going to say every Jug pilot could out-maneuver a Spit but clearly the Jug was famous for its quick roll rate, on a par with the Corsair.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A 47 only outrolls the spit at high speed, it will still be outrolled by the 190 by quite a margin.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg