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Stackhouse25th
03-01-2005, 11:52 AM
Rearm/Refuel When landing

Just as the title says, this is a missing element. Less new planes, more fixes like this.

What i propose is on the tarmac, parked next to the fuel tanks with yellow line representation.

Edit: What some of you dont realize rearming and refueling is as quick as "refly button". You fail to realize that in a campaign it might be useful, but not 100% practical, which would require campaigns to have more realism associated with it.

Dogfights wouldnt really matter, because of the instant refly thing. you could make a 100% real sim, but imagine the time involved. Simply asking to refuel and rearm when youre back at base shouldnt take 20minutes, you forget 'reality' is much shorter. If anything 1 minute or 2 minutes for bombs.

RedNeckerson
03-01-2005, 11:59 AM
Do you want instant refuel/rearm, or accurate where it takes a couple of hours or more on some fighters to do this?

Just something to think about http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
03-01-2005, 12:01 PM
Apparently the shortest time for re-arm/re-fueling would be about 45 minutes and more if you had any extra armament options and the like.

So do you want to sit on the tarmac for 45 minutes? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This isn't a fix...its a feature and if its done the realistic way then nobody will like/use it.

LEXX_Luthor
03-01-2005, 12:11 PM
Great topic Stack -- Me~262 was most vulnerable during landing, and Forcing players to land Me~262 before they take it up again would make Me~262 vulnerability realistic to be used online with the prop planes. The requirement to land back at a friendly airfield will change the whole nature of online flight simming. To force players to land, Instant Refly must be Patched out of the sim.

RedNeck "forgot" to post why FB has Instant Refly.

Hurricane could be refit for battle in 20-30 minutes. P~51 escort pilot Bud Anderson writes about Bf~109s breaking off to land to refit and taking off again to attack B~17s after they turn home for England. Romanian Hs~129 pilots flew up to 15 sorties per day in support of Romanian infantry. The "redneck" gamers never heard about WW2 aviation, until today, thanks to Stack. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Most of all, for offline play I would like to see Dauntless dive bombers drop suddently from the sky while I re~arm and re~fuel on a carrier (along with refitting AI planes). But that makes a Problem. AI planes need to re~arm and re~fuel, depending on damage, and this would take huge changes in the game code. Maybe for BoB and Beyond.

RedNeckerson
03-01-2005, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
RedNeck "forgot" to post why FB has Instant Refly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What (the heck) are you talking about?

Oleg has already answered this question, thus my reply.

It has nothing to do with "instant refly" and that is not what the original poster was asking about anyway.

Instant refly, particularly in offline campaigns does not = refuel and rearm. It starts an entirely new mission as you know.

Also, I'd say 20-30 minutes is pretty optomistic or a best-case scenario to get a Hurricane back in the air after a mission. Most would take longer.

We don't have a single western front map big enough to allow time to refuel/rearm in real time unfortunately.

My ideal situation would be for one GIANT map that allows for strategic missions and the ability to rearm/refuel and fly multiple sorties on the same day.

Some LW pilots, especially STUKA pilots in some cases flew more than 10 missions on a single day with the same aircraft.

That would be the ideal situation.

Brain32
03-01-2005, 01:15 PM
Wouldn't that be one option nobody would mind if it would be unrealistic?
You can't re-arm or refuel a modern jet fighter in a minute but LOMAC has that option and I never heard anybody complained about it being unrealistic.

Chuck_Older
03-01-2005, 02:21 PM
During the Battle of Britain, it took a Hurricane a bit under 15 minutes to re-arm, re-fuel, and re-plenish oxygen

It took a Spit almost twice as long

Let's say a top notch ground crew re-arms the Hurri in eleven minutes

How many whines do you think this will spawn?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I'm saying the casual gamer would pop a blood vessel

LEXX_Luthor
03-01-2005, 02:22 PM
A good compromise would be to wait maybe 10-20 minutes or so, depending on aircraft type. Re~fit times would be a fascinating part of WW2 combat aviation to research to simulate.

Original DOS Su~27 Flaker 1.0 made you sit for about 10 minutes while your jet refueled. Granted, Flaker had Instant re~arm with Ctrl+W, although the problem was "W" is next to "E" on the keyboard, so half the time the simmer/simmerette ejected. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Re~Arm and Re~Fuel will be the core Feature for the first flight sim that uses a Dynamic Mission Builder (DMB), where Player plane and AI planes across the map are refit for their next mission, depending on what damage they sustained on their previous missions--let alone if they survived to make it back to the field. The DMB would calculate new missions based upon previous mission results as well as new events...Example follows::

Assume Player/AI carrier flights return from bombing Midway island, and are to be quickly re~armed for another strike, but enemy carriers are found by search aircraft, so the DMB decides to change the re~arming to torpedoes instead of bombs, and calculates waypoints to the approximate position of the enemy carrier or carriers. As the Player sits with AI planes on the deck, he/she notices flak guns popping off, and dares to look up into the sky... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Choctaw111
03-01-2005, 03:40 PM
I would love to see this included in the sim. I however feel that the time involved is not as big of an issue as the actual having to land the plane for fuel and bullets. There would have to be a limited number of aircraft available per team to encourage pilots not to ditch their planes just so they can jump into a new one right away knowing that for each aircraft they lose, their team has one less aircraft to "pool" from. I feel that doing it this way would make the sim more realistic for online battles as well as keeping the "ditch your plane on purpose just so I can have a fully armed and fueled and undamaged airplane RIGHT NOW" mentality. I have not played online in a while but is there a way to watch the battle after who have died. If there is not there should be so that way if your team runs out of aircraft you can still watch the battle and see what is going on. As far as time involved for refueling and rearming, I think that just having to land and park in a certain place on the airfield is enough. Maybe just stay there for a few seconds till you get a message that states that you have been refueled and rearmed and then you can take off again. This way it keeps it playable for the hard core simmers and the pilots who like to get up there and shoot 'em up. But as always there should be a selector so that you can switch between realistic reload times and a sort of "arcade" version for reloading which would only be just a few seconds.

LEXX_Luthor
03-01-2005, 05:38 PM
Choctaw you are on a roll bud.

Your ideas would cause the Death of many Me~262 on the servers, as they were often shot down trying to land.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I think that just having to land and park in a certain place on the airfield is enough. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It may be sweet to have fuel tanks and ammo bins on the field that you must taxi to (all placed by mission builder!!!). These could be destroyed and so limit the fuel and ammo one side could deploy. A good motivation for doing something besides Vulching aircraft. Say a base has 6 fuel tanks servicing a "chocktaw" pool of 60 planes. Take out just one *unused* fuel tank and you basically take out 1/6 or 10 planes from future action -- although such operational loss would not be felt immediately, but later would be keenly felt.

I agree, let the offline simmer or online server decide between Instant Arcade or Realistic Wait times.

mortoma
03-01-2005, 06:32 PM
For one thing, a lot of you are looking solely at the online aspect of this type of feature. Well, I hate to inform you of this, but not all of us play the sim online. Many of us are offliners and this re-arm/refuel system would be great for offliners. And those critical of the idea would have nothing to lose since nobody would be forced to use this feature if they didn't want to anyway. Now would they??

That being said, since it's a fairly big change to the game engine there's little likelihood it could be implemented at this late stage of the game. But would a lot of people enjoy this?? Sure they would so I hope they consider this idea for BoB!! Like I said, you guys who would be uninclined to use the ability, would not have to do it in the first place so why whine about it being implemented??? Don't like it, don't use it, that simple. Sorry but I'm just a blunt and to the point person. I'm just that way.

zjulik
03-01-2005, 07:30 PM
Everytime this suggestion comes up, the thread is flooded with "why would anyone want to take 15, 30, 45 minute refuel breaks, as it was in the REAL world?"

Well here`s some news: This is a SIM and there are hundreds of small things in it that are not realistic. For starters, when your plane explodes, you can fly again.

A refuel/rearm option doesn`t need to mimic real life! Think of it as being able to respawn into the same, perhaps a bit battered plane you just managed to land. Full tank, new bullets, but cracks in the windshield, a hole in one wing etc. A step TOWARDS realism, but still far from it.

Another thing: I for one would love this, but I would never request for it to be mandatory, just like flying full real (haha) isn`t.

Discuss this in terms of whether you think it would be fun or not, but please don`t go down the "if it is to be implemented, it has to be EXACTLY like it was" lane. It`s like arguing against being able to take off instead of always starting in the air: We do it all the time but we don`t do the full checkup list. We have the option to land, but we don`t always taxi off the runway. We have the option to bail out, but we don`t always wait for the pilot to reach the ground (and hike back to base) before respawning.

BTW a couple of servers are now running a modified script which gives you points for landing close to a bailed out pilot, waiting a few seconds, then taking off again - simulating, but NOT emulating, a rescue.

RedNeckerson
03-01-2005, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Choctaw111:
I have not played online in a while but is there a way to watch the battle after who have died. If there is not there should be so that way if your team runs out of aircraft you can still watch the battle and see what is going on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Only if externals are allowed. Not possible on servers like WarClouds or GreaterGreen.

If you record a track online you can replay it and watch everything though.

RedNeckerson
03-01-2005, 08:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Your ideas would cause the Death of many Me~262 on the servers, as they were often shot down trying to land.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Do you fly online Lexx?

EVERY AIRCRAFT IS VULNERABLE ONLINE DURING TAKEOFF AND LANDING.

And the same was true during WWII.

Me 262 vulnerability during takeoff and landing is so overblown it's pathetic. The same thing applies to all aircraft, not just the 262. No different with piston-engine aircraft. You only hear about it WRT 262 because it was only really vulnerable during takeoff and landing.

And here is what would happen online:

1. 262 is comming in for landing.

2. Lexx type player reasons that "hey - that 262 is really vulnerable right now - it's landing"!

3. Lexx type player points the nose down on his P-51 and dreams of shooting down a jet.

4. Lexx type player is suddenly looking at a black screen of death as FW190's from the local airfield protection staffel blows him out of the sky. He didn't notice them due to his fixation on the landing jet-prize.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


The 262 would really be the perfect drag-n-bag aircraft online. It should turn on its wingtip smoke and nav. lights during takeoff and landing just for this purpose.

Also, online is numerical parity instead of LW being outnumbered 10-1 like in real WWII, so stooging around over the blue base with your other 35 P-51 friends isn't really an option like it was then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

RedNeckerson
03-01-2005, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
And those critical of the idea would have nothing to lose since nobody would be forced to use this feature if they didn't want to anyway. Now would they??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think it's a great idea and would like to see the ability.

I supported the idea a looong time ago when it came up on these forums, but Oleg said it wouldn't be implemented back then.

I really hope we have the option in BoB.

It could work for both online and offline.

LEXX_Luthor
03-01-2005, 09:26 PM
Now we are Thinking!!

RedNeck:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>4. Lexx type player is suddenly looking at a black screen of death as FW190's from the local airfield protection staffel blows him out of the sky. He didn't notice them due to his fixation on the landing jet-prize. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, we have yet another reason to assign simmers to protect the online airfields. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Wonderful thing, this Re~Arm and Re~Fuel. Thanks for the support Red. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mortoma, read the post about offline Dynamic Mission Builder (DMB), the mission builder actually runs during the game run. Wellcome Back to Forgotten Board.

Bearcat99
03-01-2005, 09:27 PM
I think its a great idea. Anyone who would expect the feature to totally mimic realism as far as the time goes needs to take a break from simming for a while and check out some other things in life. Just the ability to land.. rearm and refuel... or switch AC in the same coop or single mission with the press of a button would be just what the doctor ordered. Sort of like refly for coops/missions without leaving the battle... or even if you had to do it like the refly feature is now in a QM... only with the mission picking up from the point you left it...... instead of you starting over again and with an option in the settings for keeping the same AC or not. It would only work though if you landed at your base. If you landed in a field somewhere 50 km from the base you would be SOL... but if you made it back to base.... It would not be benificial to land a plane with holes in the wing and no gunsight.. and take the same plane back up.. but the option for a new plane or keeping the old one? That would do it. I bet it could be done to. I think with 1C it is less a matter of will than one of way.... there is not enough time or man hours to devote to such a project without sabotaging the future.... read BoB into that. I can dig that too... but I bet if UberD put his mind to it and maybe got a little help from Oleg if he hasnt already... he could do it.

ElAurens
03-02-2005, 05:37 AM
A great idea for offline play, but like many onliners, I have a limited ammount of time each day to spend in the virtual sky. A 10 to 45 minute "re arm" time would only send me looking for another diversion in my evenings. It would kill online in short order.

So, like everything else in the "sim", if implemented, it should be a server side selection, like map icons. But it would never be used online, be sure.

Choctaw111
03-02-2005, 05:48 AM
Again, it is not so much the time actually involved as much as it is just having to land and park at a certain place to refuel and rearm. Even if it is just 10 or 20 seconds till you get the message that you are ready to go it will be enough guaranteed! Implementing this will bring about a lot of new tactics that the pilots actually employed back then. This will greatly increase the fun factor as well as an extra element in the realism department. So what if we can rearm in 20 seconds as oppsoed to 30 or 45 MINUTES!!!! A lot of people really do not have the time to just sit there and do nothing. I can just see me here at home just sitting in front of the computer for half and hour and having my wife and kids asking me when I'm going to be done and then I have to try to explain to them that I am being rearmed right now. I may as well use that time to help them with their homework or take care of the wife or go make dinner. You get the point. 20 seconds will definitely be enough. Forget about realistic rearm times. That stuff is for retirees or people that really do not have anything else to do. Like right now my youngest is crying and my other two are in a scuffle so I have to go.

Bearcat99
03-02-2005, 06:14 AM
Exactly................

stubby
03-02-2005, 06:25 AM
A great idea.

For online, you simply land your plane and taxi to a designated area. Stop, chock and rearm/repair is insant. Of course, the host has flexibility in this setting in terms of time required. Forget all the other **** about about how long it really took. Here's the kicker. If you decide to hit the refly button, you get point deducted from your score. Maybe not a major penalty but give the online player a considerable incentive to want to land and go through the rearm/repair process. As most folks know, online DF servers are mostly about point whorin'.

Offline/Coops - same as above but allow this feature to be customized to meet the needs of the player. I did enjoy this simple feature in CFS2 online.

Sturm_Williger
03-02-2005, 07:16 AM
I think it's a great idea - would certainly add to immersion, BUT ...

people already complain about a 5 minute deathkick from Warclouds. Do you think they'll accept even 10 minutes to rearm/refuel ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Just a thought.

Still think it would be good, maybe the host setting the time is the best compromise. I don't expect to see it implemented in Il-2, but would be excellent for BoB.

20thFG-PirAnha
03-02-2005, 08:43 AM
Would be neat to see some progress in the likes of all this, i think it can be better than what we have now.

zaelu
03-02-2005, 08:49 AM
Although this issue has been brought up in this board several times, I will say again it's a good thing. We could have selectable settings of realism of this in server side (or in difficulties settings of the mission for offline). It could be like:

1) Instant refly (if you have crushed then team loses one plane and pilot if you have died too, if you didnt crushed then is just instant rearm/refuel but with that anoing David Copperfield act http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) This is what we already have.

2) Park to rearm/refuel area and chose from three different cases:

a) change plane this will mean that you get another brandnew aircraft from teams pool of a/c and yours is put back to hangar for repairs and rearm/refuel. Also the time for repairs and rearm/refuel should be setable from server/game options side. This too would have some magic acting in it as te planes are swapped.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

b) instant or timebased setable server/game options side repair/rearm/refuel for just parking there no button have to be clicked so you are vulnerable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

c) realistic repair/rearm/refuel depending on aircraft tipe. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Now if those settings will be avaible I wonder what will be used most? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Also in BOB if ground crew will be modeled and ground control of the pilot allowed then some of the "magic acting" will disapear too.

zjulik
03-02-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
A 10 to 45 minute "re arm" time would only send me looking for another diversion in my evenings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sturm_Williger:
Do you think they'll accept even 10 minutes to rearm/refuel ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeeze...don`t you guys read anything but the post directly above your own? *cries out upwards in anguish*

p1ngu666
03-02-2005, 10:03 AM
be like long coops or dogfight missions ive done

trim, and read book http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

VBF-83_Hawk
03-02-2005, 10:16 AM
This feature is in Aces High and is very nice. After you land you actually have to taxi over to it and park on it. After reload, taxi back to the runway and depart again.

Unrealistic? WHats unrealistic is watching guys land and dismount right in the middle of the runway. You should only get a safe landing if you dismount on the ramp.

Chivas
03-02-2005, 11:32 AM
Good post zaelu http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Anything would be better than the very unrealistic re-fly button we have now.

I never understood the amount of negative posts to this option. After all it justs an option you don't have to use.

Longjocks
03-02-2005, 05:11 PM
I think the idea is fine for SP play, except for the fact that I've rarely flown a mission where going back to base and rearming would actually do anything for me. I take off again and the action is over. Missions would need to be designed to have more going on, maybe even verging on a true dynamic, real-time scenario. I simply don't see the difference in landing and starting a new mission. You're still doing the same thing; takeoff, shoot stuff, land. This happens regardless.

For MP the only difference would be if the wait to rearm was say at least two minutes AND you completely remove the 'refly' option unless you are killed. That way it's not only fair to those who like to rearm, but it forces a player to stick with his choice of plane for the session. If he wants to refly as a new plane he has to suffer something like a five minute ban. Otherwise, an instant rearm feature is exactly the same as refly, unless everyone has to queue to use the allocated rearm zone at their base which might change things a little.

The idea is sound, it just needs a lot of tweaking rather than just 'enabled' to be palatable for the majority.

tolwyn.com
03-03-2005, 04:03 PM
Yet another searchable topic covered over and over and over again.

Longjocks
03-03-2005, 04:43 PM
True, that's what this forum seems to be about.

"Searchable" is debatable though. I suppose a manual search counts.

Stackhouse25th
03-04-2005, 09:48 AM
what you fail to understand is that, if its been discussed then why havent i heard about changes being made?

All someone has to say is that Oleg has read and understands it, has put it in his 'to do book' for his next sim or update, and then everything will be peachy. OR! that oleg has decided this isnt a necessary modification to an already well done sim.

I probably have made another post a lot like this one in the past.

Cossack13
03-04-2005, 11:36 AM
And I bet they'd yell about getting "vulched" as they sat there on the tarmac during the 20+ minutes it took for the entire process.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stackhouse25th:
what you fail to understand is that, if its been discussed then why havent i heard about changes being made? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep, Oleg has decided this isn't a necessary nor realistic modification to an already well done sim. He's not going to do it.

Chivas
03-04-2005, 06:31 PM
Its a dead issue for this sim. The idea should be considered for BOB

LEXX_Luthor
03-05-2005, 02:39 AM
Longjocks:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Missions would need to be designed to have more going on, maybe even verging on a true dynamic, real-time scenario. I simply don't see the difference in landing and starting a new mission. You're still doing the same thing; takeoff, shoot stuff, land. This happens regardless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The difference is a new mission cannot start where the previous mission stopped. P~51 escort pilot Bud Anderson writes of Bf~109s turning away to land and then they re~engage as the B~17s head for home. To simulate this over two "missions" or "game runs" requires the equivalent of a Save Game feature which saves all flight state and damage of all air and surface units in the game. Actually, this would be a useful feature working with Re~Arm and Re~Fuel, allowing the simmer to pick up the sim at a later time from the same state.

And you are correct, to fully maximize the Re~Fit feature for tactical frontline warfare, a flight sim must include a Dynamic Mission Builder that runs during the game run, basically a program simulating battlefield commanders both friendly and enemy.

Stack:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yep, Oleg has decided Instant Refly isn't a necessary nor realistic modification to an already well done sim. He's not going to do it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*oops* our mistake !!! We read "nor realistic" and everybody here (including me) assumed you are talking of Instant Refly. Apologies for MisQuoting you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CD_kp84yb
03-05-2005, 07:02 AM
Hi

In my opinion its a perfect idea, why?
It could open some ideas for more realistic missions.
Here is an example.
Take the Stalingrad map, You are assigned to fly with a He111 (the JU52 isnt flyable thats a shame but never mind) to rescue and pick up wounded soldiers, land on 1 of the airfields thats is still on your side, load the wounded, take off again, fly home and land, then refuel and go back to Stalingrad for getting more wounded men. This is how i see it, several missions a day as it was in real, lol only a very few will be able or lucky to survive that mission, cos the red army placed hundreds off AAA guns on the route, not to mention the fighters.

cheers