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MichaelMar
06-18-2005, 12:14 PM
I was thinking: How can I tell if the distance is right before opening up with a burst of MG?

Case in point: I like flying the FiatG50 and have convergance set at 300. Now I had been waiting till the enemy plane filled my gunsight before opening fire...thinking that was the right distance when convergance is set for 300.

Now what if I change my convergance to 200 or 100. How should the enemy plane look, in my gunsight, before openeing fire. Surely can not be the same as when the convergace was set at 300???

So, how can I tell what is the 'best' convergance for my plane and how the enemy plane should look in my gunsight?

THX

A.K.Davis
06-18-2005, 12:19 PM
Convergence doesn't matter that much with the G50, as your MGs are mounted in the nose. That being said, the right distance to fire is as close as you can get. Fill your windscreen and there is no way you can miss. Also, most guns hit harder the closer you are.

I usually set my convergence for all guns to 200m and don't fire until the enemy's wingtips span across my pipper.

SKULLS_Virga
06-18-2005, 01:37 PM
You can also turn icons on in the difficulty menu for a mission or two. This will show you the distance to the enemy plane. You can then get a feel for what they look like at 300m.

antifreeze
06-18-2005, 01:55 PM
The gunsight ring tells you how close an aircraft is, if you know its wingspan:
Most fighters are about 10m.
Two-engine aircraft are 16-28m.
Four-engine bombers are 30m.

The rule I was told is:
Wingspan X number of times the target fits in the outer ring X 10 = distance in meters

So a fighter which only filled half the ring would be:
10m X 2 X 10 = 200m
If you had set your convergence to 200m, then this is when you would start firing your wing cannons.

For a convergence of 300m, you would start firing when a fighter fills only a third of the diameter of the ring:
10m X 3 X 10 = 300m

For a convergence of 150m, the fighter is going to fill three-quarters of the ring:
10m X 1.5 X 10 = 150m

For a convergence of 100m, the wingspan is going to fill the ring exactly:
10m X 1 X 10 = 100m

Be aware that you are likely to hit the target twice as much at 200m than you would at 300m. You will probably get eight times more hits at 100m than 300m.

However there is nothing to stop you setting convergence to 300m, but waiting until 150m to open fire. Doing this means that the shells are still spread apart on contactand hit different places, rather than being concentrated on one point. Just depends on your style and what works for you.

For a 30m wingspan bomber, if you want to set a 300m convergence so that you don't have to get too close to those rear gunners, commence firing when the bomber fills the ring exactly:
30m X 1 X 10 = 300m

T_O_A_D
06-18-2005, 02:37 PM
Read this, it works
http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/RAFgun/

SeaFireLIV
06-18-2005, 02:56 PM
Actually, Toad`s link is good stuff. I`ve tried it to FB/IL2/PF and he`s right! It really works!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A.K.Davis
06-18-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Antifreeze:
The gunsight ring tells you how close an aircraft is, if you know its wingspan:
Most fighters are about 10m.
Two-engine aircraft are 16-28m.
Four-engine bombers are 30m.

The rule I was told is:
Wingspan X number of times the target fits in the outer ring X 10 = distance in meters

So a fighter which only filled half the ring would be:
10m X 2 X 10 = 200m
If you had set your convergence to 200m, then this is when you would start firing your wing cannons.

For a convergence of 300m, you would start firing when a fighter fills only a third of the diameter of the ring:
10m X 3 X 10 = 300m

For a convergence of 150m, the fighter is going to fill three-quarters of the ring:
10m X 1.5 X 10 = 150m

For a convergence of 100m, the wingspan is going to fill the ring exactly:
10m X 1 X 10 = 100m

Be aware that you are likely to hit the target twice as much at 200m than you would at 300m. You will probably get eight times more hits at 100m than 300m.

However there is nothing to stop you setting convergence to 300m, but waiting until 150m to open fire. Doing this means that the shells are still spread apart on contactand hit different places, rather than being concentrated on one point. Just depends on your style and what works for you.

For a 30m wingspan bomber, if you want to set a 300m convergence so that you don't have to get too close to those rear gunners, commence firing when the bomber fills the ring exactly:
30m X 1 X 10 = 300m

Not sure this applies to the G-50 gunsight...

antifreeze
06-19-2005, 02:47 PM
My info is the same as toads link, except the RAF pamphlet measures the distance in yards rather than metres. I have no idea what unit of measurement Fiat used at the time. I got my information from a similar German pamphlet regarding the Revi gunsight.

But this meters/yards thing brings up a question! I wonder if you have to convert your convergence distance(m) into yards for some aircraft? For example, if you started firing at a fighter which filled a third of the gunsight ring (300 yards according to the RAF pamphlet), your convergence would be 25m out if you had set it to 300m in the set-up screen. You would have to set it to about 275m to obtain convergence at 300 yards.

Does anyone know if the modellers used metres in all aircraft when modelling the gunsight size, or did they use the actual, original dimensions, so that distances are actually measured in yards in some aircraft?

Bearcat99
06-19-2005, 02:55 PM
That is good TOAD....
Michael..... what I did was just turn on my icons and stay in the pit. After a while your eyes will get trained to know the distance so when you turn off the icons it is in your head. USE THE SIM!!!! It amazes me how many times people come here with questions like this and all the answers are in the sim. This is why I poo poo all the elitists who say "Ohh FR is the way to go.."" yada yada yada... when you are new to this sim USE THE SIM TO LEARN THE SIM. You can always make things more challenging.. but there is no shame whatsoever in using the full power of the sim. I STILL practice marksmanship with unlimmited ammo on occasion. Why? Because I am trying to work on deflection shots..... and marksmanship... I still shoot as if I had limited ammo.. no spray and pray action.. but why have to stop practice because I ran out of bullets? USE THE SIM TO LEARN THE SIM.....

Daytraders
03-22-2006, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Antifreeze:
The gunsight ring tells you how close an aircraft is, if you know its wingspan:
Most fighters are about 10m.
Two-engine aircraft are 16-28m.
Four-engine bombers are 30m.

The rule I was told is:
Wingspan X number of times the target fits in the outer ring X 10 = distance in meters

So a fighter which only filled half the ring would be:
10m X 2 X 10 = 200m
If you had set your convergence to 200m, then this is when you would start firing your wing cannons.

For a convergence of 300m, you would start firing when a fighter fills only a third of the diameter of the ring:
10m X 3 X 10 = 300m

For a convergence of 150m, the fighter is going to fill three-quarters of the ring:
10m X 1.5 X 10 = 150m

For a convergence of 100m, the wingspan is going to fill the ring exactly:
10m X 1 X 10 = 100m

Be aware that you are likely to hit the target twice as much at 200m than you would at 300m. You will probably get eight times more hits at 100m than 300m.

However there is nothing to stop you setting convergence to 300m, but waiting until 150m to open fire. Doing this means that the shells are still spread apart on contactand hit different places, rather than being concentrated on one point. Just depends on your style and what works for you.

For a 30m wingspan bomber, if you want to set a 300m convergence so that you don't have to get too close to those rear gunners, commence firing when the bomber fills the ring exactly:
30m X 1 X 10 = 300m

nice info m8 what veiw would you be useing thou as for instance different views will give you a different size ring or not ?, i find it really hard yseing the gunsight view it fills the whole screen up. thx

slipBall
03-22-2006, 03:53 PM
The closer your setting of convergence, the more devestating it's affect. Because the greater the distance, velosity of the round's decrease's, gravity take's more of a toll

Chuck_Older
03-22-2006, 04:00 PM
Go into the QMB

set up a one on non fight, but make a friendly plane in a flight different from yours the enemy you'd like to sue to find out range

Now take a guess at your convergance preference and set it


Fly the mission.

Get behind the friendly plane. When you are at a distance you think is comfortable to fire at, slow down or speed up to roughly match the other plane's speed. Give the target a good one second long burst. Immeditaely pause the game

Now view the enemy, and un-pause

Did you hit him? If not, was your convergance too far away, or too close?

leave QMB and tweak your convergance. It's that simple

VW-IceFire
03-22-2006, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Go into the QMB

set up a one on non fight, but make a friendly plane in a flight different from yours the enemy you'd like to sue to find out range

Now take a guess at your convergance preference and set it


Fly the mission.

Get behind the friendly plane. When you are at a distance you think is comfortable to fire at, slow down or speed up to roughly match the other plane's speed. Give the target a good one second long burst. Immeditaely pause the game

Now view the enemy, and un-pause

Did you hit him? If not, was your convergance too far away, or too close?

leave QMB and tweak your convergance. It's that simple
Thats the method I've been using. Its a great tool to guage your own comfort area for firing on a bandit. Its different for everyone so you need to set it accordingly.

Treetop64
03-22-2006, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
...USE THE SIM TO LEARN THE SIM. You can always make things more challenging.. but there is no shame whatsoever in using the full power of the sim. I STILL practice marksmanship with unlimmited ammo on occasion. Why? Because I am trying to work on deflection shots..... and marksmanship... I still shoot as if I had limited ammo.. no spray and pray action.. but why have to stop practice because I ran out of bullets? USE THE SIM TO LEARN THE SIM.....

Indeed. While it's always beneficial to study the academics of shooting, I personally feel that one can never win any fights with their heads buried in the textbook. Get out there an practice - practice - practice. Then practice some more. With practice you will develop a feel and "sight picture". You can never practice enough, especially with deflection shooting.

You have to be vigilant, and continually practice. Eventually, you will find that "sweet spot", so to speak, and will naturally know how to read all the angles and distances. The more you do it, the better you'll get. But you gotta be patient...

LEBillfish
03-22-2006, 04:28 PM
I've not read the simHQ thread so it may have a better suggestion.....Yet convergence also deals with an arch....So if say you st it to 500m and shoot dead on at 250 you might actually shoot over the target.

I'm also not much of a believer in ring gunnery or utilizing the sight to gauge distance. That's a great thing if you're always dealing with a steady or smooth flying target....Yet here in the sim folks fly like planes never would have been......So here is what I have always stated I believe folks should do.

Fly a QMB, 2-3 enemy planes should be fine. Don't worry about what they're flying or you are too much, what we're tryng to determine is what feels right for you.

Have range icons on BUT YOU MUST IGNORE THEM....Your convergence at this point means nothing. As you fly don't worry about if you're getting hits just fire when it feels right.........Fly the mission and save a ntrk file.

Now review the file from in your cockpit (as that gives the most accurate range)....Don't worry about hits, all you're looking for is the range you fire at....Mark it down for each time you fire.

If you did as suggested firing reflexively not when you think it's in range or whatever....You hopefully will see a modest spread of range you fire at.....Average it out (add up the numbers then divide them by the number of distances you added)....and that gives you an "initial" convergence to work with.

I tend to set mine to mmaybe 10-20m above that. Now fly it again IGNORRING the icons and repeat. Eventually you'll come to a convergence that is where you normally feel comfortable shooting. Yet MORE SO as to the issue here, you have determined a range you tend to "reflexively fire at".

This is important, as in a furious fight if you are checking icons, or measuring wingspans in circles you're doomed. More so when things are hot you'll ignore them and fall back on reflexes.

By this method you are setting your convergence to when you will instinctively, naturally fire, be it a calm or tense situation. There will be a slight edge for you as the other guy checks his ranges.

horseback
03-22-2006, 04:35 PM
I know I'm at or near convergence when the AI target I've been chasing starts barrel-rolling...

cheers

horseback

MrMojok
03-22-2006, 06:44 PM
Good one!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DaimonSyrius
03-22-2006, 07:29 PM
Bearcat's (and Chuck's, and LeBillfish's) advice is the best and simplest, really (best because it's the simplest http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif). If you wish to do it in an even more systematic way, do as they suggested and save a screenshot showing several aircraft types (small fighter, large fighter, twin-engined, etc.) at several distances (50, 100, 150, 200, etc.) in your sights. Then, study those screenshots http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The other best way, nevertheless, is using the K-14 gunsight, but unfortunately, that is only available in the P-51D-20NA and the YP-80. Check this search on "K-14 Gunsight" results page (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=search&reqWords=K-14+Gunsight&exactPhrase=&optWords=&notWords=&f=25910613&subjectOnly=N&afterDate=&beforeDate=&authorName=&exactAuthor=Y&sortType=0&ptyp_msg=Y&ptyp_count=3&x_display_post_details=1&groupType=1&search=Search), you'll find a few threads there with instructions to get you started. See my sig for the looks of it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif An additional advantage of the K-14 (besides it showing the lead angle needed) is that if for some reason you might decide to change your convergence next week, say from 200m to 250m, you just dial that in the gunsight, and Bob's your uncle (although it isn't just as easy as that, you'll still need to get the feel for a different convergence, but I'm hoping you'll see what I mean).

Cheers,
S.

Jumoschwanz
03-22-2006, 09:58 PM
I usually set my convergence much closer, usually 150 meters, sometimes 200 meters.

This way in planes that have the guns in the nose it does not matter, but if you do get into a craft with guns in the wings you will get a good concentration of fire when you are as close as you should be.

If you are doing things right you will be bouncing an opponent by surprise while traveling much faster than them. With machine guns and very light cannons it is good to start firing sooner than with cannons, as naturally you need more hits for the same damage as fewer 20mm or 30mm round can do. So if I am in a plane with light armament I will start firing sooner than I would with heavy cannons, and keep firing as I close right up to the point where I have to break away to avoid a collision, or to keep from making energy-losing abrupt control movements, as you want to continue past and up out of reach right?

With heavy 20mm or 30mm cannons, I will fire a very short burst of a fraction of a second to a second at the closest range possible, as the damage is done with few shells, and with large rounds you do not have that many to waste.

Find the range at which you usually start firing, cut it in half and set your convergence to this! As you practice and get better it will change and you will shorten it!

Good luck,

Jumoschwanz

LEBillfish
03-22-2006, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
I usually set my convergence much closer, usually 150 meters, sometimes 200 meters.

This way in planes that have the guns in the nose it does not matter, but if you do get into a craft with guns in the wings you will get a good concentration of fire when you are as close as you should be.

If you are doing things right you will be bouncing an opponent by surprise while traveling much faster than them. With machine guns and very light cannons it is good to start firing sooner than with cannons, as naturally you need more hits for the same damage as fewer 20mm or 30mm round can do. So if I am in a plane with light armament I will start firing sooner than I would with heavy cannons, and keep firing as I close right up to the point where I have to break away to avoid a collision, or to keep from making energy-losing abrupt control movements, as you want to continue past and up out of reach right?

With heavy 20mm or 30mm cannons, I will fire a very short burst of a fraction of a second to a second at the closest range possible, as the damage is done with few shells, and with large rounds you do not have that many to waste.

Find the range at which you usually start firing, cut it in half and set your convergence to this! As you practice and get better it will change and you will shorten it!

Good luck,

Jumoschwanz

Agree 100%.........My convergence except in very rare purely bomber hunting situations is set between 150-180m. In kind I rarely ever fire a long burst and walk the tracers into the target or have it fly through them....I fire to hammer a point on the enemy be it engine, wing root, whatever...But if you think about it unless you have them totally unaware (which you should but often won't)......You only get a split second of rounds hitting meaning the rest are wasted and may be needed later.

I keep seeing folks post "my convergence is 500m, or even 300"......Most would be surprised to find they're firing at 50-100m......At 500 it's a dot, and you CANNOT aim accurately enough to hit the plane....All you're seeing are the lucky hits that strike as you spray the sky.

R988z
03-23-2006, 08:29 AM
I've recently taken mine down to 125m and even 100m, I've also been trying to get real close before firing to make it count, one short burst at such a close range packs a real punch, especially with machine guns. If you can hold out until your real close in a head on engagement and have reasonably good aim you can be ultra deadly in a head on engagement, this with wangmounted mgs! Quite the nasty suprise for some.

FinPEP
03-23-2006, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by R988z:
If you can hold out until your real close in a head on engagement and have reasonably good aim you can be ultra deadly in a head on engagement, this with wangmounted mgs! Quite the nasty suprise for some.

If you're saying that you frequently fly head-ons holding your fire, survive up to the 100 meter range in the barrage of fire no doubt dealt by the adversary, shoot down - or at least severely damage - the said adversary, and yet still manage to evade the inevitable collision (even with a mere 500 kph speed separation that 100 straight would be closed in under a second), man, you must be the luckiest man I've ever heard of, not to mention your divine reflexes or the superb handling of the planes you fly.

Daytraders
03-23-2006, 11:10 AM
thankyou you guys for all the help in thread, but back to my question what view angle do you all use when shooting is it normal veiw = END key,wide veiw = PGDN key or Gunsight view = Delete key as i find gunsight veiw really big and i get dissoritated to much.

widdershins
03-23-2006, 01:38 PM
I use wide view for take off & landing, normal view for attacking, and gunsight view for target ID at longer distances. Sometimes I use gunsight view if I am stalking a bomber and I am in his defensive blind spot, but that's just because I enjoy watching my bullets tear apart the enemy...
it doesn't really help me be more effective.

Spinnetti
03-25-2006, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
The closer your setting of convergence, the more devestating it's affect. Because the greater the distance, velosity of the round's decrease's, gravity take's more of a toll

Well.... not trying be difficult, but gravity doesn't impact the speed, wind resistance does that. Gravity just affects the trajectory.

As an example, an bullet fired from a rifle in standing position in a level plane still has almost all its energy when it hits the ground.