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View Full Version : Pranged my Prop in 4.01m, anyone else?



JRJacobs
06-23-2005, 01:35 PM
i'm having a heck of a time on tak-offs in the new FM. as soon as my tail stops dragging i quickly go tail high - half the time (so far) i nose over and bend the blades

anyone else having this issue?

Cragger
06-23-2005, 01:41 PM
Hold the stick back some. You don't have to force the tail to fly like you use to (Which was wrong) Once you have sufficient airspeed it will lift on its own.

foxfire1941
06-23-2005, 01:42 PM
S!
Most of the planes do take a bit of practice getting off the runway. To me it sounds like you may be pushing forward on the stick too much. you should pull back on the stick lightly to keep the nose up. Make sure you have takeoff flaps in position and lock your tail wheels. If I ever need to get the nose down I push forward slightly until the nose drops down. Just keep practicing!

bolox00
06-23-2005, 01:50 PM
Seafire perchance?
use elevator trim up- nearly 2 divisions on the in cockpit trim indicator works for me.
keeping the tail of 'draggers down (tail wheel locked) for longer until airspeed is sufficient to give rudder authority seems to be the way to go generally.

TX-EcoDragon
06-23-2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Cragger:
Hold the stick back some. You don't have to force the tail to fly like you use to (Which was wrong) Once you have sufficient airspeed it will lift on its own.

Actually no, the standard tailwheel practice is to hold the tail down for the initial portions of the takeoff roll and once passing somewhere around 30-40 mph (and the rudder authority starts to increase) you start moving the stick forward until it is forward of neutral (for me this is usually around two seconds of transit time so it's fairly brisk but still smooth) to lift the tail to the level attitude. . .if you keep pushing forward at this point the aircraft actually resists nosing over a bit (but certainly will nose over if you are at high power andd get on the brakes or give a ton of forward pressure), that's how it should be, and how it was in the sim before, that's my one big gripe about 4.0x. You can let the tail rise by it's own accord, but that's generally poor form in the real world, it's going to increase the takeoff roll due to prolonged period of elevated induced drag, and also cause reduced directional control as the main gear lighten too soon, and increases the chances that a wind gust will cause the aircraft to lift prematurely, which may lead to settling or snapping into the ground. Neither of which are things you want to do. This new 4.0x character also gets in the way of proper wheel landing technique that requires a brisk forward push of the stick to plant the main wheels on the ground to prevent the tail from dropping. I've posted on this in more detail elsewhere, I see it as an issue of the CG being too close to the gear placement as well as too little weathervaning tendency/aerodynamic stability. I think the CG being too close to the gear also is responsible for making ground handling in the sim far less challenge than it is in a tailwheel aircraft since in the sim there is very little ground loop tendency (this is not a nose over tail type thing, rather it's primarily yaw, if you've ridden a tricycle backwards while steering you have some idea of the type of directional instability that having the CG behind the gear can lead to).

FoolTrottel
06-23-2005, 04:16 PM
Yes, I do!

But, I'm slowly getting used to it ....
I now realize, before 4.01 I used to keep the stick constantly forward on take-off.

Just like I used to kick rudder from left to right in order to try and keep it straight on the runway.
It's the new FM.
Just works a bit different now ...

I will try and fiddle with stick sensitivity and partly fix it that way .... mostly I think I will fix it by practice ... practice ... practive

Have Fun!

Tallyho1961
06-23-2005, 05:05 PM
What they said.

I nosed over a couple of times at first, then realized I must've been giving some forward stick without realizing it. Hasn't happened since. Now I'm struggling with my new pedals. Always something...

Chuck_Older
06-23-2005, 05:07 PM
Go to hardware congfiguration, and see if adding some filtering to the joystick's pitch axis will help

I had this bad at first, and my first thought was it was me. Instead of fixing it, my wild joystick inputs made it worse

Now with a touch of flitering, the planes behave 'normally' for me. Give it a shot

Tachyon1000
06-24-2005, 10:48 AM
You pranged your prop in 4.01 milliseconds?? You might want to ease up on that. That's the way it gets bent, like, permanently, dude.

Cragger
06-24-2005, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cragger:
Hold the stick back some. You don't have to force the tail to fly like you use to (Which was wrong) Once you have sufficient airspeed it will lift on its own.

Actually no, the standard tailwheel practice is to hold the tail down for the initial portions of the takeoff roll and once passing somewhere around 30-40 mph (and the rudder authority starts to increase) you start moving the stick forward until it is forward of neutral (for me this is usually around two seconds of transit time so it's fairly brisk but still smooth) to lift the tail to the level attitude. . .if you keep pushing forward at this point the aircraft actually resists nosing over a bit (but certainly will nose over if you are at high power andd get on the brakes or give a ton of forward pressure), that's how it should be, and how it was in the sim before, that's my one big gripe about 4.0x. You can let the tail rise by it's own accord, but that's generally poor form in the real world, it's going to increase the takeoff roll due to prolonged period of elevated induced drag, and also cause reduced directional control as the main gear lighten too soon, and increases the chances that a wind gust will cause the aircraft to lift prematurely, which may lead to settling or snapping into the ground. Neither of which are things you want to do. This new 4.0x character also gets in the way of proper wheel landing technique that requires a brisk forward push of the stick to plant the main wheels on the ground to prevent the tail from dropping. I've posted on this in more detail elsewhere, I see it as an issue of the CG being too close to the gear placement as well as too little weathervaning tendency/aerodynamic stability. I think the CG being too close to the gear also is responsible for making ground handling in the sim far less challenge than it is in a tailwheel aircraft since in the sim there is very little ground loop tendency (this is not a nose over tail type thing, rather it's primarily yaw, if you've ridden a tricycle backwards while steering you have some idea of the type of directional instability that having the CG behind the gear can lead to). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I respect your experience however it must be said that in 3.04 far to control was capable at low to no airspeeds. You could give full forward stick from the onset of roll and once the tail popped up at just a few mph easily bring it level. Many times to amuse others I would hold the brakes and hover the tail in the air at a dead standstill that I could maintain indefinately with no movement except a slight left creep yaw. The Ki-84 could do it at 40% power.

Now at least you have to be more mindfull of the plane than before, which to me is a worthwhile tradeoff for poor form tail dragger takeoffs.

TX-EcoDragon
06-26-2005, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Cragger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cragger:
Hold the stick back some. You don't have to force the tail to fly like you use to (Which was wrong) Once you have sufficient airspeed it will lift on its own.

Actually no, the standard tailwheel practice is to hold the tail down for the initial portions of the takeoff roll and once passing somewhere around 30-40 mph (and the rudder authority starts to increase) you start moving the stick forward until it is forward of neutral (for me this is usually around two seconds of transit time so it's fairly brisk but still smooth) to lift the tail to the level attitude. . .if you keep pushing forward at this point the aircraft actually resists nosing over a bit (but certainly will nose over if you are at high power andd get on the brakes or give a ton of forward pressure), that's how it should be, and how it was in the sim before, that's my one big gripe about 4.0x. You can let the tail rise by it's own accord, but that's generally poor form in the real world, it's going to increase the takeoff roll due to prolonged period of elevated induced drag, and also cause reduced directional control as the main gear lighten too soon, and increases the chances that a wind gust will cause the aircraft to lift prematurely, which may lead to settling or snapping into the ground. Neither of which are things you want to do. This new 4.0x character also gets in the way of proper wheel landing technique that requires a brisk forward push of the stick to plant the main wheels on the ground to prevent the tail from dropping. I've posted on this in more detail elsewhere, I see it as an issue of the CG being too close to the gear placement as well as too little weathervaning tendency/aerodynamic stability. I think the CG being too close to the gear also is responsible for making ground handling in the sim far less challenge than it is in a tailwheel aircraft since in the sim there is very little ground loop tendency (this is not a nose over tail type thing, rather it's primarily yaw, if you've ridden a tricycle backwards while steering you have some idea of the type of directional instability that having the CG behind the gear can lead to). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I respect your experience however it must be said that in 3.04 far to control was capable at low to no airspeeds. You could give full forward stick from the onset of roll and once the tail popped up at just a few mph easily bring it level. Many times to amuse others I would hold the brakes and hover the tail in the air at a dead standstill that I could maintain indefinately with no movement except a slight left creep yaw. The Ki-84 could do it at 40% power.

Now at least you have to be more mindfull of the plane than before, which to me is a worthwhile tradeoff for poor form tail dragger takeoffs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The same can be done in real aircraft, (watch the X-Team performances for lots of this) in fact, in many of these aircraft going to high/full power even with the elevator fully aft will get you to nose over, being able to lift the tail at low airspeeds is far from unrealisitc, the tail itself is usually very lightly loaded when the aircraft is at rest, in any case that's another issue. The problem I see is the rather poor pitch axis stability that the aircraft have and the lack of normal feel when lifting and lowering the tail from what seems like incorrectly close CG and main gear position. The required techniques and the feel of the pitch axis are wrong, and I will stand by my assertion that this aspect of the sim was more realistic in the previous versions than in 4.0x. They may have tuned this to provide an increased nose over tendency, but if so it's at the expense of overall tailwheel handling characteristics . . . perhaps to gamers it's an improvement, since it's true that we have rather simplified and easy ground handling in these aircraft relative to the real ones, but to anyone diehard simmers who are after high fidelity in the FM, or anyone with real world tailwheel experience in such aircraft it's rather unnerving.

Just for kicks: http://www.bulldogairshows.com/v2/X-TEAM_video.avi

PapaG39
06-27-2005, 01:19 AM
As far as flying a tail dragger off the runway & the way it is set up in the new patch...the patch is way off. The pitch & rudder control response is overdone..its much to touchy. I never even came close to getting a prop on takeoff or landings & I flew a platus porter with a pt6 which had one big ol prop out there...

Cajun76
06-27-2005, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by PapaG39:
As far as flying a tail dragger off the runway & the way it is set up in the new patch...the patch is way off. The pitch & rudder control response is overdone..its much to touchy. I never even came close to getting a prop on takeoff or landings & I flew a platus porter with a pt6 which had one big ol prop out there...

I would think that the combinations of reduced feedback, the ability to deflect your controls much more easily than IRL, the lack of a 2000hp engine on the end of that Porter and generally slower and more careful power changes on the ground IRL as opposed to the sim would most likely give the impresion of "too touchy" to most with RL experiance, imho.

tascaso
06-27-2005, 11:19 AM
Never flew a 109 or a 190...the RV-4 I fly is smooth as silk to get the tail wheel up and to hold it up for rotation. Being that they were heavier I just cannot believe they were that twitchy and wobbly when the tail wheel got up any pro's please chime in!

123_Tony_123VEF

MADP
06-27-2005, 12:32 PM
I use to teach in taildraggers and owned one myself (an old Piper Pacer). The ground handling and T/O characteristics in PF is nowhere near realistic...the tail comes up on its own very quickly and any forward stick send you over on the prop. It just don't work that way IRL.

Cragger said: "Many times to amuse others I would hold the brakes and hover the tail in the air at a dead standstill that I could maintain indefinately with no movement except a slight left creep yaw. The Ki-84 could do it at 40% power." Hey, that's real life! I did it all the time!

But as I look at it, this is just a game, not a way to learn how to fly, so who cares?

Bearcat99
06-27-2005, 04:47 PM
Thats a nice video ED...

How about changing the stick settings? Mad & ED.... if you change the stick settings can you get it closer to what your exerience of flying taildraggers is and share that with us if you find it? Can you take that on as a little project for us? I am no pilot and all I have to go on are things I read.. but I strive for the most realistic sim experience i can get as far as plane handling goes.... I am sure I am not alone in that respect so..... can you guys do that... experiment and just see if by changing the sliders you can get your pitch axis to respond more like your experiences refelct...

Cragger
06-27-2005, 05:41 PM
I've never flown a taildragger so I believe you in your experience with them that this is improper.

But to me it just feels better that the planes can't really be ham fisted into the air anymore, well at least not with predictable success rates anymore. And I can no longer hover the tail in planes anymore. I tried to watch the video posted but even though I have WMP 7 and Divx 6 all I would get is an audio stream but no video.

But if I would hazard a guess the aircraft you mention doing it in the X-team are most likely high thrust to weight, being very light weight aircraft? Not 2,500kg warplanes?

Cajun76
06-27-2005, 06:47 PM
Nothing wrong with "hovering" the tail IRL.

http://home.earthlink.net/~atdouble/~318thFighterGroup.IeShima.html


These are loaded P-47N's, the heaviest single engine fighter of the war, outweighing even some twins.


333rd CO Major Paul Fotjik described take off this way: "You put the tail wheel at the end of the runway, applied full throttle, full turbo, and the water injection (a "no no" on the ground). As the tail came up, we released the brakes. Sometimes we had to pop the flaps at the far end of the runway to get off.

Perhaps he's rolling with the brakes on using a short runway, but I doubt it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Rifleman75
06-28-2005, 03:28 PM
finally people are saying something about the ground handling of the taildraggers

ive been trying to get something done about this since the original IL2

i think that they just think that if it handles realisticly on the ground too many people couldnt take off and land, specially if they didnt have rudder pedals or a twist stick

but all they would have to do is put a switch in the dificulty or realisitic ground handleing on or off

whenever i would start threads before about this they would never last and people would always say stuff like "its about flying, not about taxiing on the ground" i would always think, you cant fly if you cant takeoff or land

im sure it cant be a game engine limitation, all that would really have to be done to make it better would be that any yaw control on the ground would continueslly get worse untill corrected or ground loop.

i remember there was one game that seemed to model taildraggers pretty good, i forgot what it is now tho

Cragger
06-28-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Cajun76:
Nothing wrong with "hovering" the tail IRL.

http://home.earthlink.net/~atdouble/~318thFighterGroup.IeShima.html


These are loaded P-47N's, the heaviest single engine fighter of the war, outweighing even some twins.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">333rd CO Major Paul Fotjik described take off this way: "You put the tail wheel at the end of the runway, applied full throttle, full turbo, and the water injection (a "no no" on the ground). As the tail came up, we released the brakes. Sometimes we had to pop the flaps at the far end of the runway to get off.

Perhaps he's rolling with the brakes on using a short runway, but I doubt it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Close but not quite what I meant, here as soon as the tail begins to fly with the brakes on and the aircraft at a stand still he lets the brakes off and rolls down the runway or he would probably have nosed over right there. In 3.01 and before I could lock the brakes, fly the tail and just stay there, holding the plane as if it was in level flight.

The Ki-84 only need 40% throttle to do so. The plane would slowly twist without moving forward to the left. If I could have applied rudder without the differential braking kicking in the way its setup the plane would have sat dead still with the tail up like it was sitting on a stand.

TX-EcoDragon
06-28-2005, 06:15 PM
I'll give it a shot Bearcat, but mine are tuned for in-flight responses and I know I'd be sacrificing those, so I wouldn't look at curves modifications as a solution. Additionally there other symptoms that make me think it's not about stick sensitivity, as I posted before about pitch axis stability as well as the CG/Gear relationship.

Cragger, it doesn't really matter how much they weigh. . . thrust is plenty high in any of these aircraft, but again, the tails are very lightly loaded, and while you wont see anyone doing it at your local airshow in their P-51, you better believe it's possible. In many of the sim aircraft we have here the real world counterparts will lift the tail even if full aft stick is used. . . you can also read this in many takeoff checklists which will mention the use of partial power before the brake release for this reason.

Bearcat99
06-29-2005, 04:04 PM
Actually thats what I am talking about.. in flight.... or the best mix between ground handling and in flight handling. In the beginning (IL2 days..) I had all my sliders set to 100%.. I have since modified that somewhat...LOL..

raisen
06-30-2005, 05:10 PM
I used to get this problem all the time with La7's in 3.x releases, but can honestly say that I haven't had a prop strike since upgrading to 4.0/4.01. Come to think of it, I haven't changed any stick settings in the input options menu.

Worryingly, I seem to make more consistent carrier landings with this release than I ever did with 3.x, for the first time even on CVE's, rarely requiring a second pass in fact. My main problem is that I seem to be doing a "Wildcat Weave" down the deck on take off regardless of aircraft selected.....

It might just be psychological - I'm ready for the bugger trying to kill me on take off and landing....

Raisen