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View Full Version : The Breda SAFAT 12,7mm guns - A real life account of their real power..



Rickustyit
03-02-2008, 03:24 AM
Hi all,

the problem of the Italian guns in the game has been discussesed already in the past.

But I still think these guns are not that well represented in the game, power-wise, ROF-wise etc .

Here is an account written by a British pilot based in Malta, that describes the effect of these guns on his plane. It's interesting to read what the (famous but underrated) HE esplosive round was capable of doing in real life.
So many people still think these rounds were "useless" or just "tore fabric or metal skins off".

The action describes one of the first actions of the Macchi C.202 over Malta in 1941.
One of the Hurricane was shot down, another one landed heavily damaged withouth Italian losses.


Many thanks to Maraz and Mapalm that shared this account in the 150GCT forums. herehttp://www.150gct.it


----------
Here's the account

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/8834/mikabba1941a1rp5.jpg

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1706/mikabba1941b1qq9.jpg

--------

The amount of damages for a 12,7mm is impressive.
One of the bullet almost ripped open a main wing spar and created a hole of around 30 cm.

I still "feel" that the guns in the game are somehow too weak and really inefficients.
Also, the ROF synchronized was around 575 and not 520 as we have it.

Also, the incendiary bullets are not modeled at all, while in fact one of the combination used in the belting was API-APIT-HET.

Some Weapon mod do exist and they give those guns a more realistic datas for bullets, ROF etc, and playing with those it's totally different.

But perhaps an official change could come in the 4.09? I really hope so, even considering the fact that it took some of the modders about 5 minutes or less to change their parameters.

What do you guys think?


Cheers

Rick

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8414/macchi202dmetagrandezzafr9.jpg

VW-IceFire
03-02-2008, 09:09 PM
I'm all for it...the SAFAT has to be the worst machine gun ever put into the IL-2 series. It has almost no stopping power against most planes that I've fired it at. The best one was I once got behind a P-47D-10 with a MC.202 and fired everything I had at him for virtually no effect. Same thing happened against innumerable other types like the Hurricane and Spitfire...if I'm lucky I'll get an AP round into an engine and that will put them out of the fight.

Rickustyit
03-03-2008, 06:42 AM
Icefire, I know , it happened to me so many times!
Against the Spitfire or a P40 there is some possibility , but against the DM of the Hurri or LAGG3 is totally different..

BTW, I also posted this same thread in the 1C Official forum HERE (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2845) ,
as Oleg and his team won't probably check these forums anymore.

Cheers,
Rick

Aaron_GT
03-07-2008, 01:50 AM
AFAIK the round used by the SAFAT is based on the Vickers .5 MG round. The Vickers .5 MG was used (as much dur to availability and desperate need) on ships but was considered not very useful on aircraft. (Vickers did try to create a .5 observers' gun, but I am not sure if that was a version of the .5 Vickers used on ships, or an upscaled Vickers K).

uf_josse
03-07-2008, 02:02 AM
One more time, first problem is for the belting....

It was by pictures evidences something like API/APIT/HET...

In game, we have AP/HET/APT...... AP and APT are really too weak to be really efficient..

Second prob is HE modelisation..

Explosion effect radius is 4 cm, instead 15 for US M2 with the same power.... (circa 1 g).... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

So, not astonishing that in game breda is so weak.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Clearly ridiculously underpowered.

Snuff_Pidgeon
03-08-2008, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by WOLFPLAYER2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm all for it...the SAFAT has to be the worst machine gun ever put into the IL-2 series. It has almost no stopping power against most planes that I've fired it at. The best one was I once got behind a P-47D-10 with a MC.202 and fired everything I had at him for virtually no effect. Same thing happened against innumerable other types like the Hurricane and Spitfire...if I'm lucky I'll get an AP round into an engine and that will put them out of the fight.

Well, icefire, i can torn to pieces a b17 with any italian planes in il2...once i just ripped the f....off a spitfire playing online, i just let the canopy area and the pilot bailed (of course i'll not say the name) i was flying a MC205.

All i have to say is: it is not the plane, it is the pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I only fly with axis planes in tuesdays and thursdays...if you wanna be a specialist, please send me a pm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>With respect Wolfplayer, you need to educate youself a little.You say you were flying MC205, well MC205 is armed with 2x20mm mg151 cannons as well as breda-safat 12.7mm MGs and i am sure you never ripped any B-17s wings off with the 12.7s am i correct?

WOLFPLAYER2007
03-08-2008, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Snuff_Pidgeon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFPLAYER2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'm all for it...the SAFAT has to be the worst machine gun ever put into the IL-2 series. It has almost no stopping power against most planes that I've fired it at. The best one was I once got behind a P-47D-10 with a MC.202 and fired everything I had at him for virtually no effect. Same thing happened against innumerable other types like the Hurricane and Spitfire...if I'm lucky I'll get an AP round into an engine and that will put them out of the fight.

Well, icefire, i can torn to pieces a b17 with any italian planes in il2...once i just ripped the f....off a spitfire playing online, i just let the canopy area and the pilot bailed (of course i'll not say the name) i was flying a MC205.

All i have to say is: it is not the plane, it is the pilot http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I only fly with axis planes in tuesdays and thursdays...if you wanna be a specialist, please send me a pm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>With respect Wolfplayer, you need to educate youself a little.You say you were flying MC205, well MC205 is armed with 2x20mm mg151 cannons as well as breda-safat 12.7mm MGs and i am sure you never ripped any B-17s wings off with the 12.7s am i correct? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn, im so sorry...you guys were talking about the 12.7mm...lol, yeah i was with the mc205....you see im a little bit drunk that i just deleted my last post.

i agre, the 12.7 mm are underpowered in inl2...sorry.

i agree

Snuff_Pidgeon
03-08-2008, 10:25 PM
Hey Wolfy we all luv a drink http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

VW-IceFire
03-08-2008, 10:55 PM
Yep the MG151/20s that the MC.205 mounts (at least on the one model) are quite effective. That gun used to be an issue a long time ago until its belting was improved.

wishbone9901
03-10-2008, 05:57 AM
all the guns seem a little underpowered in this game. especially the 20mm ho cannons in the niki. is this because of more accurate modeling of their low velocity?

tragentsmith
03-10-2008, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by wishbone9901:
all the guns seem a little underpowered in this game. especially the 20mm ho cannons in the niki. is this because of more accurate modeling of their low velocity?

No no, guns are undermodelled. Look at the .50s or look at how much 108s a P47 can take before smoking.

leitmotiv
05-10-2008, 02:20 PM
I feel your pain, Rickustyit. One of my favorite scenarios is a Hurricane I vs MC 200 brawl with me in a Macchi. Unless I hit the radiator, and even if I slam the Hurricane at point-blank range, my favorite range, I have found shooting down Hurricane Is very hard. Your anecdote was very telling. You cannot do that kind of damage with the game ammunition. Take it from me, I have fought the Hurricane with the MC 200 dozens of times. Usually I try to cream the radiator---I aim at it deliberately, because nothing else seems to work.

P.S. I'd really like to know the book from which that info came! Thank you.

DKoor
05-10-2008, 04:40 PM
I had success with Safat only in close range... otherwise they can work vs Spitfire quite good but that's because Spit isn't really sturdy plane.

leitmotiv
05-10-2008, 06:49 PM
I just tried my MC 200 scenario for the first time in months and what do you suppose happened? I was presented with an approx 100m shot at a Hur I from its port quarter and my snap burst sawed off the outboard part of the port wing just like that. Did the last patch give the 12.7 a boost?!

DKoor
05-10-2008, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I just tried my MC 200 scenario for the first time in months and what do you suppose happened? I was presented with an approx 100m shot at a Hur I from its port quarter and my snap burst sawed off the outboard part of the port wing just like that. Did the last patch give the 12.7 a boost?! Don't know... somewhat I doubt it, but I have noticed that concentrated fire from 2x12,7mm Safat at point blank range almost always causes I-16 to explode mid air.
I can't get similar results with 7,62's, not even with 8 of them. With LMG's I usually just cut off part of the I-16 if I pump enough lead... can't remember one mid air explosion, and I know I filled some of them with 7,62 really good.

M_Gunz
05-10-2008, 10:36 PM
If you play MP mode with you as host then you have online ability to check HIT STATS while
no packet loss. Use arcade=1 to see where you hit even if just on track playback.

First check to see if your aim is undermodeled.

What was MV of the Safat's?

DKoor
05-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Yeah that's excellent stuff.
I've played for quite some time in multiplayer using excellent CrazySchmitt's utility MissionMate for quick creation of COOP missions which server only one purpose: gunnery .50cal training.
My goal was never to go below 10%.

And oddly enough it isn't that hard to achieve... at least vs Ai fighters.

Just type

user STAT

...and it shows shots fired and shots hit (aerial hits).

arcade=1 is great too for quick reviews, heck you can see if you hit in real time (as you shoot him) too!

However in replay it is only viewable in .TRK format, online track .NRTK format wont show it.

Blue_Baron
05-13-2008, 09:55 AM
God bless you Rickustyit.

This is EXACTLY the point I have been trying to make as it relates to the Japanese 12.7 round and the Italian round.

Two 12.7s on a plane can be very deadly. It is not this way in the game. It is like the shells lob out two at a time very slowly. It is pathetic.

So why DID the development do this? The IL2 SIM is remarkable, and it would be remarkable to have it tweaked instead of having volume added.

I beleive the Japanes got their 12.7 round technology from the germans and italians.

Blue_Baron
05-13-2008, 09:57 AM
How do I get this gunnery mod and load it?

Please post url.

Thanks!

Rickustyit
05-14-2008, 01:36 AM
Hell guys,
leitmotiv, the Book from which that part was taken is:

"Cull - Galea, Hurricane over Malta" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Something to add though: a very recent discovery made by Italian experts (engeneers and historians) , with original Regia Aeronautica documents and even studying an original Synchronization unit, found out that the synchronized rate of fire of the Breda Safat 12,7mm guns was very high... In fact , depending on the engine RPMs, the ROF varied from 550 to 700 rpm in the DB601 engined Italian fighters (Macchi C.202 and Reggiane Re.2001) and from about 500 to 700 in the radial engine fighters as the C.200, Fiat G.50 and Cr.42 fighters...

So , in theory,we should see an avarage ROF of 625 rds/min for the C.202 and about 600 rds/min for the Fiat A.74 engined fighters (in game ,we have a ROF of 525 for these guns ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif ) Just to let people understand how the reality was different from the guns modeled in the game...
Add to that the non-included incendiary ammos, and off-values datas for the individual bullet types, and you have what we can see in the game...

After many years of misconceptions and errors, we are probably close to what "it was" in reality, and why in fact Italian pilots never had something to say about those guns in general (and instead considered them very effective against fighters and light bombers).

Hopefully, this recent study will be published shortly! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Blue Baron, check your PM.

Also, this discussion was continued on the official 1C forum here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2845

Cheers,
Rick

Blue_Baron
05-14-2008, 10:16 AM
Like I said, a total shaft of American, Italian and Japanese 12,7 ammo.

The real srew up is that the American 50 cal was superior to all in WW2, yet in the game it is Soviet armament that hits the hardest and has the best rate of fire.

???????????????????????????????????????????????

Will these same MISTAKES be repeated in BOB, or does anyone care enough to FIX THEM

VW-IceFire
05-14-2008, 04:54 PM
The M2 .50cal was an above average weapon. The Russian heavy machine gun, the Berezin UBK and UBS, was the superior machine gun above all others.


Again, the Soviet Berezin UB was probably the best gun, with a ballistic performance similar to that of the Browning gun, but a considerably higher rate of fire. The UBK was the version for installations in aircraft wings. The synchronized UBS for cowling gun installations had a lower rate of fire, though a still creditable 800 rpm. This was significant, for most Soviet fighters had their guns on the engine cowling.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

You can clearly see that even when synchronized behind a propeller (as the Berezin often was) the UBS fires as a similar rate of fire, with a heavier projectile, similar muzzle velocity, and the whole gun weighs less than the .50cal.

The Italian Breda SAFAT was by far the worst heavy machine gun of the war but I think its underrepresented in IL-2...its weaker than it probably should be. For some reason its seems to be about as effective as a light machine gun with the only advantage being its explosive shells. It should behave similar to the Ho-103 machine gun except slower firing (which it is) but it seems to be significantly less powerful. What game values are at work I'm not sure.

But please get some facts straight. The Russian heavy machine gun in game is better because it really was the better gun according to any WWII aviation gun expert I've read about. All of the experts and compliations of expert documentation suggests the Berezin to be the best of the bunch. The Browning M2 is potentially second or third place with the rest falling in behind that and the Breda SAFAT being the worst.

So the game has it right...but the differences may be exaggerated. That I think its hard to prove.

leitmotiv
05-16-2008, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Rickustyit:
Hell guys,
leitmotiv, the Book from which that part was taken is:

"Cull - Galea, Hurricane over Malta" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Something to add though: a very recent discovery made by Italian experts (engeneers and historians) , with original Regia Aeronautica documents and even studying an original Synchronization unit, found out that the synchronized rate of fire of the Breda Safat 12,7mm guns was very high... In fact , depending on the engine RPMs, the ROF varied from 550 to 700 rpm in the DB601 engined Italian fighters (Macchi C.202 and Reggiane Re.2001) and from about 500 to 700 in the radial engine fighters as the C.200, Fiat G.50 and Cr.42 fighters...

So , in theory,we should see an avarage ROF of 625 rds/min for the C.202 and about 600 rds/min for the Fiat A.74 engined fighters (in game ,we have a ROF of 525 for these guns ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif ) Just to let people understand how the reality was different from the guns modeled in the game...
Add to that the non-included incendiary ammos, and off-values datas for the individual bullet types, and you have what we can see in the game...

After many years of misconceptions and errors, we are probably close to what "it was" in reality, and why in fact Italian pilots never had something to say about those guns in general (and instead considered them very effective against fighters and light bombers).

Hopefully, this recent study will be published shortly! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Blue Baron, check your PM.

Also, this discussion was continued on the official 1C forum here:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2845

Cheers,
Rick

Big thanks for the citation, R. I have the book but haven't read it yet. One last favor---which pages did you copy? I want to definitely mark them!