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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:29 AM
First I have to admit I am a Lutwaffe fan and that this is a subjetive comment.
I have notice that FW-190 in this game is not what I expected. Acording to the books and real pilot experiences I have read Fw-190 was a very manureable aircraft that in its first test flights was even capable to turn inside a bf-109 f tighest turn(at low and medium altitudes);something imposible in this game. I have even read that P 51 pilots were recomended not to enter turning and rolling fights against fw-190 at low altitudes (at medium and gigh altitudes they could do whatever they want...)
Although I believe this is the best simulator ever seen (I am quite adicted) I have the feeling that russian and allied fighters are enchanced in this game...I repeat that this is just a "feeling"... What do you people think about it?



Message Edited on 10/17/0308:43AM by sebasgalland

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:29 AM
First I have to admit I am a Lutwaffe fan and that this is a subjetive comment.
I have notice that FW-190 in this game is not what I expected. Acording to the books and real pilot experiences I have read Fw-190 was a very manureable aircraft that in its first test flights was even capable to turn inside a bf-109 f tighest turn(at low and medium altitudes);something imposible in this game. I have even read that P 51 pilots were recomended not to enter turning and rolling fights against fw-190 at low altitudes (at medium and gigh altitudes they could do whatever they want...)
Although I believe this is the best simulator ever seen (I am quite adicted) I have the feeling that russian and allied fighters are enchanced in this game...I repeat that this is just a "feeling"... What do you people think about it?



Message Edited on 10/17/0308:43AM by sebasgalland

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:52 AM
I am a FW190 fan but the role rate of the 190 is over the top in FB now. So is the high speed elevator response. Unfortunately the high speeed elevator response was too poor before. In my opinion the butcher bird is the best german aircraft avilable right now.



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AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:54 AM
Hysterically, given equal pilots the Russian fighters were the better turners against everybody except the Japanese, except for the MiG hi altitude interceptor and the LaGG which was kinda like an early (and underpowered) wooden P~47 type of thing. Just don't get into a rolling fight with the FB Fw.

Everybody wants to be a World War 2 Triplane ace.



Message Edited on 10/17/0308:56AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:55 AM
Yes the roll is overdone a bit, I think the elevator response may be too, but the turn is dubious if you ask me.

The 190 was reputed more manoeuvrable than Spitfire when it came out. And manoeuvrability isn't just roll.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 09:57 AM
I've read the same kind of thing, and had the same reaction to IL-2.

But looking at the specs of the FW-190 in more detail, it becomes clear that, while it may have very good roll and instantanous turn ability at speed, the sustained turn rate is quite poor. This is exactly what you see in FB.

So its kind of misleading for a book or pilot to call it "manueverable" when they mean it only in a short term aerobatic sense, rather than an actual ability to turn fight.

But some sources will actually highlight these deficiencies in sustained turn rate and stalling charactersistics. You have to learn the whole story about it, and look at the specifications.

As far as a FW-190 "outturning" a Bf-109F..... I'd wonder what exactly that person is smoking, and I would want some.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:06 AM
I think ppl read stuff like "the FW190 was more maneuverable than the Spit" and asume that this means in a sustained turn. I don't think the FW190 was good for sustained turns due to energy bleed. But these articles probably reflect the superior role rate over the Spit.

P.S I'm no expert correct me if I am wrong /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:16 AM
It is noteworthy IMHO that new players feel normally the same as you. But in a minute people here come to tell you "you is wrong, be sure". Dont believe those books you've read, these links in the internet are much more reliable...

Surely it is very problematic to tune plane handling as it cannot be measured on numeric methods so naturally some errors do happen. But it is funny when flying online you quite rarely gain kills flying in '43-44 server flying top LW planes, which I know well after flying over a year with it. Then I switch to red and take off with for example '41 LaGG-3, which is poor plane in pilots memoirs and was new plane for me few weeks ago, but had no trouble killing seasoned opponent in his G6late. I kept up with him because of better acceleration, climbed with him because he overheated and turned better than him. That is fishy IMHO. I rarely fly using VVS planes, only when player-balancing is needed, and after this it takes several days until the bitterness in my mind has faded enough and I want to fly FB again.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:27 AM
The 190a8 is my favorite plane ever since I was a kid, but the roll is insane especially when adding the snap roll, the mig3u and yaks are just as bad, the 190 should have the fastest roll of any plane in the game but its way over done and the unlimited rolls stick yanks and manuevers the airframe couldnt have handeled structurally makes the games realism go down the tubes in my eyes, as for p51ds not engauging 190s in turn or rolls thats a load of balogne, when escorting b17s protecting thier box which gave the p51s a disandvantage and they held thier own very very well against the 109s and 190s, in reality a jug can stick on a 190s tail for a good amount of time and vice versa just about any plane stay on an opponents 6 in reality for a couple seconds in il2 fb you cant I hope alot of things get fixed and corrected and il fb has the feel of flight physics back to the game

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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:30 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- I've read the same kind of thing, and had the same
- reaction to IL-2.
-
- But looking at the specs of the FW-190 in more
- detail, it becomes clear that, while it may have
- very good roll and instantanous turn ability at
- speed, the sustained turn rate is quite poor. This
- is exactly what you see in FB.
-
- So its kind of misleading for a book or pilot to
- call it "manueverable" when they mean it only in a
- short term aerobatic sense, rather than an actual
- ability to turn fight.
-
- But some sources will actually highlight these
- deficiencies in sustained turn rate and stalling
- charactersistics. You have to learn the whole story
- about it, and look at the specifications.
-
- As far as a FW-190 "outturning" a Bf-109F..... I'd
- wonder what exactly that person is smoking, and I
- would want some.
-
-

I have also read about Fw-190 vicious characteristic at low speed, and I also believes it couldn´t outturn a BF109F.. so I am looking for exactly what you mention.. specifications and data (reliable sources)

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 10:31 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- when escorting b17s protecting thier box
- which gave the p51s a disandvantage and they held
- thier own very very well against the 109s and 190s,

I disagree. They had the advantage of the altitude as they could fly over the bomber formation and dive on the german formations at will. Besides the german's orders often were to ignore the fighters and go straight to the bombers.

I wouldn't say the P51 or P47 were disadvantaged by the tactical situation, quite the opposite.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:18 PM
The 190 couldn't turn inside a spitfire.

-The roll rate is too high at high speeds.
-Elevator response is too light at high speeds.
-The 190 has a simplified DM.
-The 190's view is wrong/limited
-The 190 shouldn't suffer from radiator drag
-Auto pitch is useless as manual provides better performance.

I will gladly have the first three fixed if they fix the last three. Especially where radiator drag is concerned.

Also, bring the other planes like the super-climbing and turning La-7 and the energy bleed defying P-39 in line with reality. The 190 is fairly close to historical numbers in terms of performance, how many other planes can say that? It has a few obvious errors but it certainly doesn't get any special treatment. Fix the items listed above and the 190 will be better, not worse. And more correct IMHO.

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Message Edited on 10/17/0307:57PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:48 PM
why shouldnt it suffer from radiator drag?

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 02:56 PM
Its radiator doesnt stick in or our when you open/close it. Right now the drag it creates is modeled, which is wrong.

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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 03:57 PM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
-
- Surely it is very problematic to tune plane handling
- as it cannot be measured on numeric methods so
- naturally some errors do happen. But it is funny
- when flying online you quite rarely gain kills
- flying in '43-44 server flying top LW planes, which
- I know well after flying over a year with it. Then I
- switch to red and take off with for example '41
- LaGG-3, which is poor plane in pilots memoirs and
- was new plane for me few weeks ago, but had no
- trouble killing seasoned opponent in his G6late. I
- kept up with him because of better acceleration,
- climbed with him because he overheated and turned
- better than him. That is fishy IMHO. I rarely fly
- using VVS planes, only when player-balancing is
- needed, and after this it takes several days until
- the bitterness in my mind has faded enough and I
- want to fly FB again.
-
I do not play usually on-line... but the other day I stand a fight with a friend (former pilot f-18 and experienced FB player), both were flying fw190d9 and I was able to stand the fight with a minimum of dignity(althouh I used to lose)... but when he flown a lag-3 he shot me down as if a were a the donald duck; he can follow any of my maneuvers and do them faster than me at any speed, the only thing I colud do was running and climb...even worse we change the planes and I was able to shot him down!... I can´t believe a 1945 top lutwaffe fighter have such problems to shot down a not too brilliant soviet fighter..if so what aces the lutwaffe pilots were!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:07 PM
Hello,

I don't read war books, technical or historical, and I have no ideas of the real concept of flight or anything like that, I just play the game.

For me the Focke Wulf is my choice of plane when ever it's available on any server, I liked it before and after the patches and just adapted to the changes, and if there is a new change I will adapt to those too, I will always be a Focke Wulf person.

Sometimes I can turn faster (if only for a few turns), or flick the nose around for a qick shot, sometimes I can turn slower knowing the other aircraft my stall. but thats not just the plane..it's my planning too!
I do think its the way you deal with each situation as it materialises which counts the most, then also how many mistakes you may make is always an influencing factor http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

I can't fly in an arobatic team but this does not mean everybody cannot do it!.

My dad always says remember the P's..
Pre-Planning and Preperation Prevent a Poor Poor Performance .. Period.

Hope this offers a different perspective http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:19 PM
sebasgalland wrote:
- I do not play usually on-line... but the other day
- I stand a fight with a friend (former pilot f-18 and
- experienced FB player), both were flying fw190d9 and
- I was able to stand the fight with a minimum of
- dignity(althouh I used to lose)... but when he flown
- a lag-3 he shot me down as if a were a the donald
- duck; he can follow any of my maneuvers and do them
- faster than me at any speed, the only thing I colud
- do was running and climb...even worse we change the
- planes and I was able to shot him down!... I can´t
- believe a 1945 top lutwaffe fighter have such
- problems to shot down a not too brilliant soviet
- fighter..if so what aces the lutwaffe pilots
- were!!!!!

Yep that pretty much sums it up.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 04:23 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Hysterically, given equal pilots the Russian
- fighters were the better turners against everybody
- except the Japanese, except for the MiG hi altitude
- interceptor and the LaGG which was kinda like an
- early (and underpowered) wooden P~47 type of thing.
- Just don't get into a rolling fight with the FB Fw.
-
- Everybody wants to be a World War 2 Triplane ace.
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 10/17/03 08:56AM by
- LEXX_Luthor

Well if that's true, why were they given orders forbidding them to enter turn fights?

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:13 PM
I know the FW is not quite right. What I don't get is everyone saying the roll rate is too fast. At 500-550 km/h it should roll an average of 180 degrees per second.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 05:22 PM
~S!

I don't fly the FW a great deal, enjoy it when I do. In RL the FW in many ways had many advnaced features now found to be common in military single seat aircraft.

It has speed , accel and manueverability, used correctly it is deadly combo. ( Example fly with *** Rall and others)

One bit of advice here though,manueverability in ACM does not have much to do with a sustained rate of turn..... BUT the machines response and sensitivity to change direction, albeit quickly. Here the Fw really shines!

The FW ( roll rate noted be higher than the real McCoy) has the ability to initiate a quick change of direction at high speed... long enough to take a shot and extend. In sum the machine is highly manueverable, but you have to keep it at its best speed.

IMHO, it'll help you to change your thinking about manueverability, in ACM. ( forget about the sustained rate of turn) The FW has the ability to manuever for the shot and maintain a commanding position in an engagment. In this regard the machine does indeed live up to its RL reviews/tests, etc. Turning at low speed in any bird will only get you shot-up.

I'll turn this over to the experten.

Regards:



BPO5_Jinx
C.O. Replacement Air Group
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XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 06:16 PM
so what is your guys take on what the TA 152H will bring to this game? i heard it would have a 17sec turn rate... about a sec faster than the uber la7??? whats up with that then? feeling sorry for 190?

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 07:24 PM
Ta-152H was a high-altitude fighter. I don't think the VVS has much to worry about as long as the Luftwaffe is willing to engage them on the deck.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 07:33 PM
Classic head on ecounters are rare -- and if a 190 meets any VVS dude head on, he should gun at him quickly, jink to avoid return fire, then blow straight past and extend, leaving the VVS jock as little turning room as possible.

In most fights, someone jumps someone else and is in their rear quarter very quickly and without warning trying for a kill. And more often than not, the defensive pilot makes a series of short, frantic jinks and reverses in order to shake their would be killer. In a fight like this a 190 is more than able to stay with any VVS plane provided the fight remains at high speed.

However, if the defensive plane with the superior horizontal performance manages to enter a sustained turning contest -- without being gunned down in a high angle off snap shot -- then 190 is in serious trouble. It had better hope it has enough smash to escape to a cloud, a base, or that a friend is nearby... Or it's going to get smoked when that Lagg/Yak/39 whips around on its a#$.

By the same token, if jumped a 190 can dive vertical then roll, roughly a quarter turn every two seconds in an umpredictable manner should be sufficient to shake most pursuers, and force a high speed overshoot. Once this happens, the Butcher driver can evaluate and see if he's in position to attack or, if the bandit has a commanding E advantage and is out of gun range, get the hell out of dodge.

But 190's shouldn't win sustained turning contests. That's not what they were designed for. Fight in the vertical and use your roll rate and you'll do quite well.
Want to see this in action watch El~Cid. Flew him the other day. He's terrific in 190.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:06 PM
sebasgalland wrote:
- First I have to admit I am a Lutwaffe fan and that
- this is a subjetive comment.
- I have notice that FW-190 in this game is not what
- I expected. Acording to the books and real pilot
- experiences I have read Fw-190 was a very
- manureable aircraft that in its first test flights
- was even capable to turn inside a bf-109 f tighest
- turn(at low and medium altitudes);something
- imposible in this game. I have even read that P 51
- pilots were recomended not to enter turning and
- rolling fights against fw-190 at low altitudes (at
- medium and gigh altitudes they could do whatever
- they want...)
-
- Although I believe this is the best simulator ever
- seen (I am quite adicted) I have the feeling that
- russian and allied fighters are enchanced in this
- game...I repeat that this is just a "feeling"...
- What do you people think about it?
-
-
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 10/17/03 08:43AM by
- sebasgalland


What do i think?


I think you should stop complaining. there are other planes alot wors off then the FW or BF.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:07 PM
I actually like the handling of the A-8 or A-9. They are nimble, quick and are hoot to fly.
They grab nice altitude, have fast speeds and can actually hold a nice carve in a turn battle on the deck.
As long as you use a fistful of rudder, keep the nose negative and she will be a dream machine.
I'm faaaarr from an expert, but by experience, I have found myself in occasions outturning some Yaks and LA's in a close contest from time to time. Not to mention the guns are stunning to say the least.
I think a lot of people try to "yank" the sick too harsh subsequently "washing out" the 190 and upsetting airflow.

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:21 PM
nicolas10 talk to any german pilot from wwii on german msg boards they always would attack from a higher altitude. I think you been watching memphis too much

http://www.freewebs.com/leadspitter/lead.txt
Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:24 PM
FW190 needs more power! La5FN has more power in a smoother package. It's rather odd why La5FN doesn't overheat or act like it's nose heavy or something. The engine in it is simply amazing... FW190 could be more aerodynamic also. The wings are bit too large and their shape could use refining. The visibility is poor, too...

XyZspineZyX
10-17-2003, 11:31 PM
Don`t expect good turning from the 190, This plane had relatively high wingloading even compared to the 109. It didn`t have the leading edge slats to make up for it. I also read that the wing`s profile was such that it was prone to sudden stalls.

The test you refer to show the 190 being a better turner than the 109 because the British test pilots was unfamiliar with the latter`s handling. German tests, and also Russian opinion was the 109 turns better - but roll worser.

The advantage you have in the 190 is great firepower, roll rate, high speed and good cocpit vision to all directions. This means you should exploit these, and not turnfight unless you are in absolute advantage. Also, practice a lot so you know when you plane is on the border of stall, so you can ride it on the edge!



Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:30 AM
One thing you guys keep forgetting when comparing Russian planes to German planes, etc, is that most Russian pilots in WW II probably had way less combat experience than you guys that fly Russian planes in FB. While the German pilots generally were quite experienced by 1941. So, you are in essence comparing experienced pilots maybe even ace Russion pilots to experienced or ace German pilots. It's doubtful that most Russians got full performance out of their planes, so the accounts of who out turned who, etc need to taken with a grain of salt. The only real way to measure these things is with technical data and flight test results.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 12:59 AM
Nothing really to add, but I love the thread title:
FW-190 *manuerability*
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:07 AM
A.K.Davis wrote:
- Ta-152H was a high-altitude fighter. I don't think
- the VVS has much to worry about as long as the
- Luftwaffe is willing to engage them on the deck.

I think you missed the part where the Ta 152 H turns tighter than a La 7 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 01:09 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- nicolas10 talk to any german pilot from wwii on
- german msg boards they always would attack from a
- higher altitude. I think you been watching memphis
- too much

Where did I say the opposite?

My point is, if a plane can't ever win from the same alt, it's not superior. If you need 1000m; ur plane isn't better, and you need those 1000m to offset the deficiencies of the plane.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 02:25 AM
S! Guys
Well I, and our group, have been involved with FB long enough now to have made some observations.. One of them being the Fw190s seemingly impossible flight characteristics.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

First let me say that FB overall is absolutely awesome, simply the best WWII combat sim to date. 'Been over to the HL and takin some licks and given some out, so I'm learning the program and am very impressed with it.

But the one plane that seems to be most difficult are the Fw190s, particularly turning them. I have had an opportunity to talk with two WWII combat pilots that flew P-51ds and have kills to their credit, who say, among other things, that the Fw190s could turn inside a P-51d at higher speeds. Only when the speeds got down low did the P-51ds have an edge. The Fw190s were the one prop German plane they feared the most. Both of them also told me that a P-51d could fly circles around any Bf109. So from these conversations and other accounts I have read indicate that the Fw190s could really turn.

I'm not the only one who has issues with this apparently. One guy on-line called it a "fish floppin" something or other, and most guys I talk to about it have similar issues. What it does with me is when taking it into a turn, it wants to roll violently the opposite direction without warning.
So, just wondering what the general opinion is regarding the Fw190 and if anyone has any suggestions on how to fly it better. If something needs to be practiced more, exactly what?
Thanks.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:22 AM
Not sure if it was a recent system rebuild or not, but the elevator authority seems really dumbed down after the last couple patches... Hardly wants to climb.. (or maybe its just my joystick?)

I liked it fine before the patches, but now have to relearn all over again..

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:52 AM
There are some issues with flight sims that will never be completely resolved. There are issues with every plane which from what I can see. But the 190 is in my opinion the funnest to play with in this sim. What I want to know is, how the Yak-3 can take the damage of a 'Bolt?

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XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 04:05 AM
"So, just wondering what the general opinion is regarding the Fw190 and if anyone has any suggestions on how to fly it better. If something needs to be practiced more, exactly what?"

The Fw190 is in it's element when it's fast, as it should be. Keep your speed up and manouver in the vertical, you can really kick *** in the thing.

At low speeds, handle the stick gently and get up to high speeds as quickly as possible! Don't pull the stick all the way back or you'll snap out of the turn. This is the case for pretty much all fighters in the game - there's a speed band where they turn fastest, above it you turn slower and below it you snap out. The 190 has no upper limit on this band at the moment as far as I can tell, no matter how fast you go you can only turn faster.

"What I want to know is, how the Yak-3 can take the damage of a 'Bolt?"

It can't. Check what's really happening by recording a track and viewing from the target. Count the number of hits, not the number of rounds fired. Turn on arcade mode in conf.ini to see exact hit locations if you want.

The P-47 is a bigger target, and not as nimble, so you're probably landing more hits on it. The yak-3 is small, light and nimble, and you're probably hitting it a lot less than you think. If you can make a couple of tracks showing the Yak-3 taking massive numbers of *actual hits* and still flying, then you have something.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 06:16 AM
The Yak-3 used to take ALOT of punishment, certainly more than the Thunderbolt. But since 1.11 the Yak series is now quite vulnerable as far as DM goes and it feels about right to me.

As far as flying the 190, as Bnej said keep your speed up. If a shot is not there don't take/force it. Don't trade your energy and speed and attempt to stay on your opponent, simply break off and come around again. Be gentle on the stick, even at high speeds as this will keep your energy/speed high. If you get in trouble use your roll-rate, dive, and outrun your opponent. Or dive almost straight at the ground, you will either build enough speed to where your opponent will break up if he follows, or you can quickly roll and change direction pulling up at the last second which will cause your opponent to hit the ground if he attempts to switch direction and follow. You should never be caught low and slow unless taking off or landing. Don't use auto-pitch, use manual at 100% it gives better performance. Be mindful of your radiator, close it when needed, open it when you don't. Don't use auto. Don't zip around building unnecessary heat when not in combat area, cruise and keep temperatures down. Be aware, 190 has excellent view to sides and rear and can often spot opponents first. Most important of all, use your teammates. The 190 is a poor 1 vs. 1 plane but may be the best 3+ vs. 3+ plane in the game. It's high speed lets teammates catch pursuers and its firepower is capable of destroying any plane in a quick, single pass.

The 190 and 262 are both hit & run planes. Along with the P-47 they may be the only three in the game that almost always require this tactic whereas others may use this tactic only in specific situations. Don't turn fight and don't attempt to outclimb your opponents. Hit them and get out and use your teammates effectively and you will have much success. I see the P-51 being similar in this respect when it arrives but requiring more passes as it lacks "one pass kill power." The P-51 is not as tough as the 190 either but it should make good use of its diving and zooming ability and should excel at high altitudes.

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Message Edited on 10/18/0305:22AM by Hunde_3.-JG.51

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 07:07 AM
S! Thank you all for the imformative responses. I'll keep workin at it.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 08:29 AM
I have really tried to like the 190 but find that offline I cannot win against an LA7 or YAK ACE unless:

1) I get a lucky pilot kill
2) I draw the VVS AI into a rope a dope
3) I have vastly superior speed or E


The plane seems to require a nose high attitude which worsens it's already legendary visibility problems (a problem it has only in IL2 and FB, not IRL again according to all accounts I have read) and flys like its nose heavy at medium speeds. At really high speeds it has incedible elevator response and roll rates and of course great armament and can sustain alot (maybe too much) damage.

There are many really great virtual pilots out there that can use these few advantages and do extremely well with it, but what bothers me is that the plane changes course very reluctantly and unlike accounts from LW and Allied pilots many of whom loved the plane on first flight especially compared to 109. The 109 flies great (G6AS and K4) in game, but the 190 is a tough bird unless you take every tactical advantage.

I would say with the same pilot skill in 190 and LA or YAk and the VVS pilot comes in first almost every time. Something is amiss. It wouldn't be so bad but you are talking half of the LW airforce seems modeled incorrectly, and this speaks not only against historical accounts but gameplay as well.

BTW: I am am American and bought FB for the P-47 and P-40, but I find myself wishing the 190 was better modeled, cause I kill it (or damage it severely) too easily and find it very challenging to fly against top VVS fighters that are competent (All things being equal).

Sorry but I am tired of people saying that the FW is OK since they can score victories with it since I think some of you Aces would have success with a flying brick and claim that proves it's correctly modeled.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 09:55 AM
Great thread!

sebasgalland::
-- the only thing I colud do was running and climb...even
-- worse we change the planes and I was able to shot him
-- down!...I can´t believe a 1945 top lutwaffe fighter
-- have such problems to shot down a not too brilliant
-- soviet fighter..if so what aces the lutwaffe pilots were!!!!!

(1) Running, climb, dive, and ATTACK. Those are the correct air combat tactics for both World War 1 and World War 2.
(2) Stop claiming you are simming a Luftwaffe Ace. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


BfHeFwMe::
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
*-- Hysterically, given equal pilots the Russianfighters were
*-- the better turners against everybody except the Japanese,
*-- except for the MiG hi altitude interceptor and the LaGG
*-- which was kinda like an early (and underpowered) wooden
*-- P~47 type of thing. Just don't get into a rolling fight
*-- with the FB Fw.

*-- Everybody wants to be a World War 2 Triplane ace.

- Well if that's true, why were they given orders
- forbidding them to enter turn fights?

Newbie pilots ordered to turn fight will yank the stick into a stall and they can't recover. Early VVS pilot training was that bad. Luftwaffe pilot training was not. Every FB simmer wants to be a WW2 Triplane Ace.


RAF_Swede::
- What it does with me is when taking it into a turn, it
- wants to roll violently the opposite direction without
- warning. So, just wondering what the general opinion is
- regarding the Fw190 and if anyone has any suggestions on
- how to fly it better. If something needs to be practiced
- more, exactly what?
- Thanks.

Speed. Attack. Require all early war servers to force the VVS to fly with 30 degree field of view only. This will simulate the inability of untrained pilots to spot other aircraft.


ucanfly::
- I would say with the same pilot skill in 190 and LA or
- YAk and the VVS pilot comes in first almost every time.
- 1) I get a lucky pilot kill
- 2) I draw the VVS AI into a rope a dope
- 3) I have vastly superior speed or E

Before The Patch, Fw190 was crippled in climb. After The Patch Fw190 is OK. Stay with number (3). /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


If Luftwaffe and VVS switched planes in June 1941, the result would have been *exactly* the same. Of course the internet WW2 Triplane Aces could not whine about FM as the reason then. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 03:41 PM
If you want to fight the '41 LaGG-3, it's really not so hard as some people make out. The thing is a dog - here's it's nasty attributes:

- easily snaps into a stall at *280km/h*
- Takes ages to get to it's top speed. Usually in combat it's hard to get above 320-350, which is below the speed it turns best at.
- Bleeds off energy quickly
- falls apart in a dive.
- awful climb & vertical manouver.

Essentially, the LaGG is the La-5FN with heavier "Delta wood" construction, inline engine providing *800* less horsepower (nearly half) and no leading edge slats (makes it snap into a stall at fairly high speeds).

Advantages:

- Heavy, so it accelerates well in a dive.
- Very strong weapons, 4 MGs and one cannon, all in the nose. Good for instant death out to about 350m, and serious damage even further.
- Very little shake when firing. (it's heavy)
- turns well above 340 or so km/h, and below 500 or so km/h.
- Well protected. I posted a quote a couple of days ago about this, but essentially it had strong but heavy construction and a unique fire ******ant system that allowed it to take a lot of damage.

Any FW can easily beat the LaGG. Take the fight into the vertical (he'll stall out long before you do, and can't climb with you anyway), keep your speed above 400 km/h. Pull him up until he's either trying to fly away or he's hanging on his prop, then dive and destroy. Don't get into a spiralling, diving fight, since that lets him use his turn advantage and negates his power/weight problems.

XyZspineZyX
10-18-2003, 10:15 PM
Man, I am so tired of reading posts complaining about over/underated flight models not corresponding with what people "think" an aircraft should perform. Man I'm a noob(in FB, anyway) who flys mainly La7's, and recently began trying out 190's, and I can tell you, if you fly it with decent energy tactics the way it's supposed to be flown(with patience and discipline) it is a refined killing machine. This airplane displays its best characteristics at speeds that break my beloved La's into wingless comets, and has enough firepower , even without MK108's, to take out any plane in a well setup high speed pass and be out of harms way before any of his co level companions can even see him. And it will probably continue to dominate as a ZnB'er even with roll rate slightly modified, and the ridiculous kevlar armor reduced.(seriously, I know this plane is reputed to be tough, but tougher than a P-47? cmon)

The thing is, IMHO, in FB the German planes follow the same philosphy I found with German equipment and engineering I have encountered (I used to work for Siemens): They are finesse vehicles; u really have to know your SH!T and work with them to be succesfull, but once u do they'll outperform anything similar.(i.e JG27*Aristo)

The problem is these guys who jump into 109's thinking they automatically are gonna hang with Yaks and LA's and whathave you without doing they're homework. I know it's frustrating trying to perform BnZ against ac and having Yaks on your butt from outta nowhere
but there is documentation on these Russians performing as well(or almost as well) as this game has them. But I'll tell ya; you jump into a Yak or La against a squad of well organized 109's and 190's and they will hand your @ss over to you.


http://www.hut.fi/~andres/m44/m44_5t.jpg

Speedy delivery! Speedy delivery! Via Pe-8

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 12:15 AM
the FW isnt that tuff
it looses turn ability with just a few hits
it looses speed with just a few hits

its wings fly off when you hit them in the wing root

its tail seems unbreakable . you cant hurt the FW hitting it in the tail / rudder area

no matter how well you fly it , other planes are better at turn fighting

fast roll rate was helpfull IRL but in a flight Sim .... big deal

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 09:33 PM
S!
Well, during the last couple of days I have made some discoveries, based on some comments and suggestions I found here.
It seems, when speed is over 350 Km/hr they turn very well. In fact, the faster you fly the 190s the better they turn. If you find yourself under 350Km/hr and in trouble... well, you're in trouble unless you have altitude.
Diving this bird is the best way to get out of trouble and with its superior roll rate you can avoid taking rounds on the way down.
I dove most of the variants from 7500 meters on desktop and on-line, and found that pieces didn't start falling of the airplane until you got over 830 Km/hr. I have found that for most of the Russian planes, 640 Km/hr is about it, and then wings start falling off, so you have plenty of advantage there. The P-47 could follow you down in a dive very well so be careful with those.
One thing about the Fw190, IMHO, and I agree with Hunde on this, is that it is most effective as a team/wingman plane. It is not very good 1 vs 1 because of its poor handling when down and slow. If there are 3 or 4 working together, that would be a tough thing to overcome.
Also, one needs to be a very good shot, because shooting opportunities come fast and furious. If you miss, then you have just wasted a lot of gas to get up high and you have yet one more enemy that knows where you are.
Anyway, just a couple of things I have noticed about the Fw190 thus far.

XyZspineZyX
10-19-2003, 11:40 PM
Lukki wrote:

- It's rather odd why La5FN doesn't
- overheat

The one I flew in a VOW mision the other night was overheating all the time, and wouldn't cool down even with rad open at 90%. Not long after the warning came on I'd damaged the engine and only just got it back to base.

Kernow
249 IAP