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XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:01 AM
Oleg has given permission to post this regarding the sound dll's he has spoken of for the release candidate.

Below is his comments, and as he states in the thread on the release, post in the ORR about this and not directly to him.

This is in response to this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn ( <a href=)" target=_blank>http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn</a>" target=_blank>http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn</a>

and others similiar regarding 'sonar' sound, etc..


---------------

Oleg writes:


"Do you understand my post about DYNAMIC RANGE OF SOUND CARDS and SOUNDS ITSELF? That now on Sound card can simulate the dynamic range of real envirounment?

Do you offer me to remove all sounds except the sound of engine, guns, radio catter and hits, in cockpit and forget about all other sounds?
That is only the way to make it currently - to switch them all forever.

We can make that the sound of Engine will cover by the loudness all other sounds DUE TO DYNAMIC RANGE OF SOUND CARDS.

Sample what I tell:

- If we will make non realistic movement of sound in air from a distance (decreasing much more that its now) than the effect of Flyby aircraft sound will go to nothing. It will dissapears from 30-40 meters.... Do you like it?


How to explain you all that Dynamic range of sound in sound cards are much lower than in real life and that the sound in air distributes on kilometers, but not meters. And how to explain you all that we have simulation of real sound envirounment comparing to any other 3D sound in games? Do you reall like to get the 2D sound from Rawen's Battle of Britain? MS CFS sound? EAW Sound?

And.... How you all think that if the pilot hear nothing in headphones except engine and cannons, then how it will be about hits of bullets that are really lower sound than the shot from a 20 mm cannon in 20-100 tymes (depends of surface type)?

I flew on Helicopter.... 1,500 m altitude over the battle on the ground... I hear engine of *elicopter, hear sound of propeller, hear MGs, that shoting down in the traget on the ground and hear cannonadas on the ground battle with the cannons..... Why I hear the explosions on the ground (lower comparing to the propeller of helicopter, but anyway hear!)?


So. Currently we will stay with the two types of sound DLL with the release of add-on. On Expansion pack CD release probably we will have changes, if we will have not any other problems.

You may post it."



--------

"So. Currently we will stay with the two types of sound DLL with the release of add-on."

So, as you saw in his RC post about the 2 dll's, it is in reference to this sound test.




=============
Some of above was in response to the following email correspondence:



Oleg,

Sir, I do not wish to bug you on this matter, and apologize for bringing it up so often:



http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn


I read your post Oleg. However, I find no examples of pilots reporting they could hear these sounds.

This is a big deal to many (look at number of posts, from dedicated il2 pilots).

As a pilot, I am sure you realize that you could not hear other engines outside of your own - especially a warbird?

Ask your p51 test pilot you referred too. I am sure if he has flown a p51 he could attest to what sounds he could hear.

I promise to leave this alone, but I must say, I am not convinced by your post.

Is it possible to add a setting at the very least that would turn off all but a few sounds?

You see the problem is that with the current sound setup, it is ruining the immersion element that is so very important to a large crowd of us pilots. We try to follow correct tactics, with high speed boom and zoom, etc.. however, with the current game, the defender hears the 'bounce' coming and has plenty of time to evade.

I know you say 100m, but 100m is not even close - we hear from much further away. Besides the point that 100m is questionable in and of itself. In addition, I can hear gunfire on the ground when over 5000 meters high.

But gunfire is the least of the concerns, it's engine noise - that is the big problem Oleg. We should not hear other engines.


I will go look to find the post, but this has been occuring since il2 - in the early versions of il2, this didn't exist. Then it did exist, and our only solution was to cut throttle to 0 on a bounce. However, that is not right.

I make a plea to fix this sir! We don't want to hear all that external sounds from inside the cockpit, it is not realistic.


Thanks for your consideration

S!
609IAP_Recon

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Skies Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://www.forgottenskies.com
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem



Message Edited on 11/07/0312:06AM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:01 AM
Oleg has given permission to post this regarding the sound dll's he has spoken of for the release candidate.

Below is his comments, and as he states in the thread on the release, post in the ORR about this and not directly to him.

This is in response to this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn ( <a href=)" target=_blank>http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn</a>" target=_blank>http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn</a>

and others similiar regarding 'sonar' sound, etc..


---------------

Oleg writes:


"Do you understand my post about DYNAMIC RANGE OF SOUND CARDS and SOUNDS ITSELF? That now on Sound card can simulate the dynamic range of real envirounment?

Do you offer me to remove all sounds except the sound of engine, guns, radio catter and hits, in cockpit and forget about all other sounds?
That is only the way to make it currently - to switch them all forever.

We can make that the sound of Engine will cover by the loudness all other sounds DUE TO DYNAMIC RANGE OF SOUND CARDS.

Sample what I tell:

- If we will make non realistic movement of sound in air from a distance (decreasing much more that its now) than the effect of Flyby aircraft sound will go to nothing. It will dissapears from 30-40 meters.... Do you like it?


How to explain you all that Dynamic range of sound in sound cards are much lower than in real life and that the sound in air distributes on kilometers, but not meters. And how to explain you all that we have simulation of real sound envirounment comparing to any other 3D sound in games? Do you reall like to get the 2D sound from Rawen's Battle of Britain? MS CFS sound? EAW Sound?

And.... How you all think that if the pilot hear nothing in headphones except engine and cannons, then how it will be about hits of bullets that are really lower sound than the shot from a 20 mm cannon in 20-100 tymes (depends of surface type)?

I flew on Helicopter.... 1,500 m altitude over the battle on the ground... I hear engine of *elicopter, hear sound of propeller, hear MGs, that shoting down in the traget on the ground and hear cannonadas on the ground battle with the cannons..... Why I hear the explosions on the ground (lower comparing to the propeller of helicopter, but anyway hear!)?


So. Currently we will stay with the two types of sound DLL with the release of add-on. On Expansion pack CD release probably we will have changes, if we will have not any other problems.

You may post it."



--------

"So. Currently we will stay with the two types of sound DLL with the release of add-on."

So, as you saw in his RC post about the 2 dll's, it is in reference to this sound test.




=============
Some of above was in response to the following email correspondence:



Oleg,

Sir, I do not wish to bug you on this matter, and apologize for bringing it up so often:



http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuasn


I read your post Oleg. However, I find no examples of pilots reporting they could hear these sounds.

This is a big deal to many (look at number of posts, from dedicated il2 pilots).

As a pilot, I am sure you realize that you could not hear other engines outside of your own - especially a warbird?

Ask your p51 test pilot you referred too. I am sure if he has flown a p51 he could attest to what sounds he could hear.

I promise to leave this alone, but I must say, I am not convinced by your post.

Is it possible to add a setting at the very least that would turn off all but a few sounds?

You see the problem is that with the current sound setup, it is ruining the immersion element that is so very important to a large crowd of us pilots. We try to follow correct tactics, with high speed boom and zoom, etc.. however, with the current game, the defender hears the 'bounce' coming and has plenty of time to evade.

I know you say 100m, but 100m is not even close - we hear from much further away. Besides the point that 100m is questionable in and of itself. In addition, I can hear gunfire on the ground when over 5000 meters high.

But gunfire is the least of the concerns, it's engine noise - that is the big problem Oleg. We should not hear other engines.


I will go look to find the post, but this has been occuring since il2 - in the early versions of il2, this didn't exist. Then it did exist, and our only solution was to cut throttle to 0 on a bounce. However, that is not right.

I make a plea to fix this sir! We don't want to hear all that external sounds from inside the cockpit, it is not realistic.


Thanks for your consideration

S!
609IAP_Recon

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Skies Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://www.forgottenskies.com
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg

Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem



Message Edited on 11/07/0312:06AM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:09 AM
"Test please. The last report we will read on Monday and then we will compile final version and will not return back untill release of Expansion Pack were we plan some new features and some possible fixes.
"


For all those that have been wanting the 'sonar sound' to be fixed. Be sure to test!!!

Put your response in ORR about sound so they can see the communities reaction!

S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Skies Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://www.forgottenskies.com
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg

Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:12 AM
hmm what size guns?
i can sometimes, very rarely hear the army gun testing, easier from my grandads house to hear it, and its MILES away.
also in ww1 ppl in england could hear the guns sometimes

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:16 AM
Hats off to you Recon for pushing thru this subject!

V!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:23 AM
Recon_609IAP wrote:

...
- Oleg writes:
-
-
- I flew on Helicopter.... 1,500 m altitude over the
- battle on the ground... I hear engine of *elicopter,
- hear sound of propeller, hear MGs, that shoting down
- in the traget on the ground and hear cannonadas on
- the ground battle with the cannons..... Why I hear
- the explosions on the ground (lower comparing to the
- propeller of helicopter, but anyway hear!)?

Hi Oleg,

With the highest respect, I would like to mention that I have flown on a helicopter too (CH-46 Sea Knight) and a twin-turbine powered helicopter is quite loud, but it is not nearly as loud as a 12 cylinder fighter engine, which is almost deafening 100 meters away (at full throttle).

I understand the technical issues with PC sound hardware make it very difficult, and I really appreciate that you have been kind enough to discuss and investigate this issue.

S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:50 AM
I finally had one of the loud "gun shots from ground" in a flight, but I am thinking and havn't seen it even mentioned that the loud explosion we hear is from a nearby exploding AAA shell and not the sound of the gun shooting. It reminded me so much of the close flak shots I've seen/heard during bombing runs in war documentaries. The fact that people mention it happening when near ships or shore makes me think this might be the case. i.e. what you are hearing is not the gun shooting, but the artillary shell exploding close to your plane.
Rx

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:52 AM
Engine noise from other planes not the flack. It is a problem.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 01:53 AM
As Recon has written (copied from his post above):

"But gunfire is the least of the concerns, it's engine noise - that is the big problem Oleg. We should not hear other engines."



S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:09 AM
Oleg Maddox wrote:

"So. Currently we will stay with the two types of sound DLL with the release of add-on. On Expansion pack CD release probably we will have changes, if we will have not any other problems.

You may post it."


So it's a technical issue- and Oleg & Co have it in hand- and it will be a while before it can be sorted.

I guess we just all need to be patient while the man gets an opportunity to sort it..... something to look forward too in the new year maybe /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Oh, and thanks Oleg for keeping everyone well informed!


"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:25 AM
thank oleg for trying to solve the problem,i'd have liked to test the new dlls but since nobody could download the whole patch...

thanks also recon,i trust you to deal the thing with oleg,you have my full support.

i just add that if 1C has to pork external sound to get internal realistic,they can go on as far as i'm concerned,and that they should make SURE that one won't be able to change his own sound settings to cheat online.external sound OFF must be for everybody in online game,better if chosen by host to avoid complains about sound engine change,but if not doable then let it become standard.


thanks again oleg and recon /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:35 PM
PB0_Roll wrote:
[...]
- i just add that if 1C has to pork external sound to
- get internal realistic,they can go on as far as i'm
- concerned,and that they should make SURE that one
- won't be able to change his own sound settings to
- cheat online.external sound OFF must be for
- everybody in online game,better if chosen by host to
- avoid complains about sound engine change,but if not
- doable then let it become standard.
-
-
- thanks again oleg and recon

This is the system we've been dreaming of ever since IL2:

- either a single standard realistic sound system or a flexible one which can be controlled in difficulty setup.

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:41 PM
I hear tank fire when passing close to them at low alt.
I do not hear flak which I think I should...to test this just turn off you engine when in a flak area.....or in any situation where you should hear gunfire or explosions when there is no engine noise.

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:42 PM
that's another story buz,i hear flak myself...

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:48 PM
I know Olegs english is rough, but even an idiot like me can understand what he's saying.

The sound is AS REAL AS IT GETS ON CURRENT HARDWARE.

The dynamic range of soundcards is what causes the problem, not the sound engine programing.

I've tried 4 different cards, from a $14 SB-compatible to an Audigy 1. The low-end cards are horrible... you can hear things that you should never be able to hear. On the Audigy 1, the effect is _far_ _less_ pronounced.

This sound engine is one of the best. Like Oleg says: Go listen to the competition.

As far as 'bounce whining'.. I have always been able to hear an oncoming bounce.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 03:52 PM
lol, now we are bounce whinners....well atleast I belong :P

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:20 PM
Thanks Recon as well for pushing this issue. This is a HUGE deal if you are an online player.

The surprise factor was the reason that approximately 90 percent of all kills in WW2 were made. Surprise is way more important than any other aspect involved in a WW2 dogfight.

Thats how the number one Ace got 352.

BTW, for all of you forum experts out there, I have flown in formation with prop driven aircraft in real life and I have never been able to hear the other aircraft, even when
it was within 5 - 10 feet from my aircraft.





Message Edited on 11/07/0303:57PM by IVJG51_Swine

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:23 PM
Ok, now I'm even more confused.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:36 PM
recon, that's all nice, but how are we going to test the soounds if we can't get the files?

I'm a crappy pilot, but one hell of a shot.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:40 PM
Well, this was said long before...

We have to decide...

Either we want external sounds removed and these will be gone when in external view as well...more or less (due to the limits of current HW)

Or we want them stay and they will be in cockpit views too...which is unrealistic...

That´s why the two sound dlls...I guess one of them will be with no external sounds (Dll-NoExt) and one will be with all sounds (Dll-AllExt)...

The problem is that whoever wants to use his sonar to avoid surprise attacks will simply go for Dll-AllExt and nothing will be solved

I much appreciate Oleg´s attention but this would be no solution...

There would have to be two versions of the patch with different sounds which would not be compatible with each other...

One would be 1.2-Online with "Dll-NoExt" that would be used online and on dedicated servers...

The other would be 1.2-Offline with "Dll-AllExt" that would be used for offline flying where your tactics do not depend on sound and therefore you can enjoy the unrealistic fun of hearing planes buzz by you while in cockpit...

Or if it would be possible, there would be one patch but the different dlls would not be compatible with each other, dedicated servers would be compatible with the "Dll-NoExt" and Dll version would be mentioned in server info and brief

Whatcha think?

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 04:46 PM
Thanks Recon,
your efforts are appreciated and well supported,S!

http://jg50.com/images/NewSig.jpg

Adjutant,Lt.Sepp
Jagdgeschwader 50 "Graf"
http://www.jg50.com/

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:04 PM
I say no sound when you are in the exterior view then.

Realism is what separates this sim from all of the other "wanna be" sims.

Oleg, there has to be some way to work this out, whether if its with a separate online patch or something else, I have faith in you.




Message Edited on 11/07/0304:06PM by IVJG51_Swine

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:33 PM
i say IF it works like you imagine Kocour (nobody could test those Dlls yet...) there could be a trigger in the difficulty settings to switch either Dll for a game,for ALL the players,to avoid cheating (of course there should be a check INSIDE the DLL to be sure one didn't renamed the "all ext" to "no ext" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

and THAT would be awesome,but i wait a bit to test before dreaming too loud...

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 05:41 PM
IVJG51_Swine wrote:
-
- Realism is what separates this sim from all of the
- other "wanna be" sims.
-

Oh yeah, like the 'realistic' trim response... you know, those electronicly-timed trim tabs all had a delay-loop programmed in so the enemy couldnt cheat.

I've always been able to hear an oncoming bounce.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:24 PM
Ok Bladie Jr., lets try to keep this thread on the correct subject, the sound. Please keep any other remarks to yourself or place them on another thread. Thanks for your consideration here.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 06:43 PM
IVJG51_Swine wrote:
- Ok Bladie Jr., lets try to keep this thread on the
- correct subject, the sound. Please keep any other
- remarks to yourself or place them on another thread.
- Thanks for your consideration here.
-
-
-

My point is: 'realism' is not a valid argument.

Realisticly, sound cards are incapable of producing realistic sound. Deal with it.

The herd-mentality grows tiresome. We've been down this road before and what did it get us? A trim 'exploit'. If we try to ignore the real-world limitations of hardware by making concessions in software, we end up with tech-savy users who can do things that others can't do.

Go ahead an beat your drums folks, but if it gets changed, the only people to benifit from the changes are the ones who know how to cheat the system.



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 07:10 PM
Actually, Baldie, the cheating takes place right now and we are trying to put a stop to it...

Who takes a benefit from current situation are certain people with certain HW who can hear external sounds (like enemy engine sound eg.) much louder than others...

What we are trying to achieve is to erase this benefit and make it same for all...

U follow me?

If there are no external sounds that can be played while you are in a cockpit view you can have dozen home studios and headphones of the size of an overgrown water melon for all sakes but you will not hear anything and no tweaking will help you...

and that´s when the full real flying will be realistic because in real life (and if you follow these "sonar" threads for a while you will know that it´s true) you did not hear ANYTHING apart from your own engine roar, radio chatter, maybe a little when you fired your own guns (but you not so much heard as rather felt it), maybe when cannon shells exploded on the armor plate behind your back and maybe when a flak shell exploded so near that it tore your wing off...

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:00 PM
Why is it that people accept some hardware limitations, but totaly ignore others?

After this is changed (because you short-sighted users make such a large fuss over it), the open-cockpit-plane drivers are going to whine because the sound is "unrealistic".

Next comes the "I cant hear anything with my engine off and i'm gliding at 1,000 meters" bug.

Then RBJ starts a campaign against the sound limitation and gets labeled a 'sound whiner', even though he is 100% correct in what he says.

All the while, those with tech knowledge will be porking drivers or whatever to make sound even less realistic (like my old card that can be tweaked in IL2 so that you hear everything but your own engine thanks to a registry change!).

I applaud 1C for pushing hardware to its limits. I am not about to ask them to go back and undo thier work.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:22 PM
Your opinion is noted Baldie Jr. Let's let others state their own and move on.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:39 PM
IVJG51_Swine wrote:
- Your opinion is noted Baldie Jr. Let's let others
- state their own and move on.
-


Thanks for offering your service as 'discussion arbitrator', but I think the forum software does a great job of allowing others to express themselves.



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:47 PM
Your concern is valid, and the simple solution, (at least it's simple to state), is an option to disable all sounds other than the player's own engine and hits to players AC, just like we have the option to disable external views, to make gunnery easy/realistic, turn cockpit on/off. If its too hard to implement, then by all means leave it as it is.

BaldieJr wrote:
- Why is it that people accept some hardware
- limitations, but totaly ignore others?
-
- After this is changed (because you short-sighted
- users make such a large fuss over it), the
- open-cockpit-plane drivers are going to whine
- because the sound is "unrealistic".
-
- Next comes the "I cant hear anything with my engine
- off and i'm gliding at 1,000 meters" bug.
-
- Then RBJ starts a campaign against the sound
- limitation and gets labeled a 'sound whiner', even
- though he is 100% correct in what he says.
-
- All the while, those with tech knowledge will be
- porking drivers or whatever to make sound even less
- realistic (like my old card that can be tweaked in
- IL2 so that you hear everything but your own engine
- thanks to a registry change!).
-
- I applaud 1C for pushing hardware to its limits. I
- am not about to ask them to go back and undo thier
- work.
-


S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 09:59 PM
i think that something should be done

i dont think that nothing should be done because there is a possibility that someone in the future might be able to exploit it

in FB v1.1f i could hear a 262 start up & rev up form the total opposite side of map online summer 3

the sound we have now is because oleg says its not possible to replicate what we mean with technology the way it is now

to me it sounds like we can have all sounds the way they are now in all views ....... or ....

we have only a few sounds in all views

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:02 PM
BaldieJr wrote:
- Why is it that people accept some hardware
- limitations, but totaly ignore others?
-

Because some hardware limitations, unlike others, are destroying the realism of this sim, Baldie...I don´t give a damn if my enemy has his PC in cinema and uses the 20mx30m screen instead of monitor because in the end all he can see is what I can see too, but I really DO care if he can hear me approaching because this is what NEVER happened in reality and this reality is true for SOME (me too) in FB as well and untrue for OTHERS (some of my friends and many others who can hear enemy miles away) in FB now...

Deleting external sounds is the lesser of the two evils and the switch in difficulty settings would be the best solution and your driver tweaking cheaters would only be succesful with External Sounds ON settings cuz the External Sounds OFF setting would be simply cheatproof...


- After this is changed (because you short-sighted
- users make such a large fuss over it), the
- open-cockpit-plane drivers are going to whine
- because the sound is "unrealistic".


This is supposed to be a realistic WWII air combat simulator and back then around 80% shot down pilots never knew what hit them (read your IL2 manual)...why should those FB pilots, who want to experience this, give way to kids, who fly their planes from external views? There is no other sim for hardcore realism simmers than FB...there are plenty of other sims for kids who need their external views...CFS3, etc...

If these kids start to whine, they may be dirrected to their IL2 manual too to check out what is realistic and what is not and their´s will be the decision whether to stay with the sim or not...


-
- Next comes the "I cant hear anything with my engine
- off and i'm gliding at 1,000 meters" bug.


This is a good point but again...we are talking about lesser of the two evils...how many pilots were shot down with their engine off and how many with their engine on? How many pilots online switch their engines off to be able to detect a bounce? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There would be lots of zig-zag flying and anxious looking around BUT!!! that is exactly how it was back then (at least those sane pilots did it) and how it is not in FB...YET...I hope...


-
- Then RBJ starts a campaign against the sound
- limitation and gets labeled a 'sound whiner', even
- though he is 100% correct in what he says.

The difference between trim and sound is the same as between graphics and sound...trim may be not realistic (I think it is the way it is now) but it is the same for all now (as ever)...unlike sound...

-
- All the while, those with tech knowledge will be
- porking drivers or whatever to make sound even less
- realistic (like my old card that can be tweaked in
- IL2 so that you hear everything but your own engine
- thanks to a registry change!).

Well, see...if you make such a tweak in future with External Sounds OFF, you will not hear anything at all so you will be glad to reset your ini and hear at least your own engine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- I applaud 1C for pushing hardware to its limits. I
- am not about to ask them to go back and undo thier
- work.


I believe Oleg did the best he could to get as close to realism as possible, but if there are limits that destroy realism...u know how the saying goes: sometimes less means more...so let´s have less of "ear-candy" to get more realism...

does anyone else agree?

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:12 PM
I agree 100 percent CSL_Kocour, SALUTE!

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:24 PM
you know who /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:33 PM
What a deal.

I'm sorry, but I was bounced last night and never saw it coming. Your whole argument is just dumb.

Most of the time, I can hear an attacker because i'm looking directly at the moron. I use headphones and will admit that the directionality of the sound is a bit off, but this is due to soundcards not having the horsepower to make things realistic. If you pay attention, you can tell that the sound issue is related to how the soundcard 'renders' the 3d world.

I'm not going to sit here and be quite while uses demand another ignorant request in the name of 'realism' (the same people who pull 10-G turns and stand on the rudder when in real life they would not have the strength to do so).

Just let it go. By pushing for this, you'll screw something else up. Getting rid of all sounds while in the cockpit is not realistic and will just lead to some other undesirable effect.. just like the BROKEN FLIGHT MODEL thats allowed to exist because MISINFORMED USERS whined for 'realistic' trim, which is not realistic because the planes do not fly in a matter that is real at all.

Its taken 1C quite some time to get a sound solution that works. Stop trying to screw it up.

PS- CSL_Kocour, You requests for information from real-life pilots ended in two responses, both of opposing viewpoints. I think its impossible for anyone to answer the question since anyone who was bounced is DEAD. Use a different name when asking for information, google forgets noone!

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 10:37 PM
Again, I have to ask... Could a WWII pilot in a high performance prop fighter hear much of anything outside his plane? From everything I have read, the answer is no. Possibly near miss flak sounds, sometimes hits on his plane, sometimes explosions relatively near his aircraft, but all the sounds we hear now? That is my question.

The sounds we do hear are very rich, nice sounds and greatly add to the overall effect of the game in combination with the eye candy, but are they realistic? That's all I am looking for, and judging from most of the posts in this thread, that's what others are looking for as well.



http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2003, 11:26 PM
BaldieJr wrote:

I think its impossible for
- anyone to answer the question since anyone who was
- bounced is DEAD.

Thanks for that "observation". You think anyone who ever got shot down is dead, and the same for anyone who flew in a prop AC with another AC close behind. Do you know anything outside of what you've experienced first hand in a video game?

S!

SKULLS_LZ

Solutions For A Small Bandit

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:02 AM
http://images.snapfish.com/338%3B474723232%7Ffp46%3Dot%3E232%3A%3D6%3B%3A%3D4 37%3DXROQDF%3E232346763%3A%3A54ot1lsi

Here is an example(sorry about the duplication here). I am in the aircraft in the picture. The individual taking the photo was in an RV-6 as well. These aircraft have less cockpit armor than your typical WW2 fighter(hehe). Both of these aircraft were within 10 feet from each other at a given time. I couldn't hear anything from the other aircraft. If there hadn't been radio communications prior to his merge I would have never known he was merging for formation until I looked over to my right.

Now Baldie, this is the deal, there has to be a way to correct this problem and that is the issue here. Oleg and his Team have created this sim and I would venture to say that they know a heck of a lot more about it than you.



Message Edited on 11/07/0311:58PM by IVJG51_Swine

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:33 AM
BaldieJr wrote:
- What a deal.
-
- I'm sorry, but I was bounced last night and never
- saw it coming. Your whole argument is just dumb.

Thank you for your opinion. But there are people who can hear enemy approaching from 1600m...if you ever tried to bounce somebody you would pretty soon find out for yourself...and even if it was only 100m as Oleg tries to model it, it still would be wrong...there were tons of posts about this uptill now and more and more information appearing proving the case...you hear virtually nothing outside your cockpit with your engine in power and that is why we want it in FB too...or would you rather have an unrealistic simulator?

-
- Most of the time, I can hear an attacker because i'm
- looking directly at the moron.

Moron? Sounds like you dont´t like ppl who try to surprise attack others...do you? That is why you defend the unrealistic sonar so stubbornly?


I use headphones and
- will admit that the directionality of the sound is a
- bit off, but this is due to soundcards not having
- the horsepower to make things realistic. If you pay
- attention, you can tell that the sound issue is
- related to how the soundcard 'renders' the 3d world.
-
- I'm not going to sit here and be quite while uses
- demand another ignorant request in the name of
- 'realism' (the same people who pull 10-G turns and
- stand on the rudder when in real life they would not
- have the strength to do so).

Once again, this request is solely in the name of realism...case supported by many realtime pilots...if you want to disprove it Baldie, I´m afraid you have to bring some data in:

The best would be an account of a pilot saying he could hear an engine of WWII fighter while in another WWII fighter during a powered flight in combat configuration...


- Just let it go. By pushing for this, you'll screw
- something else up. Getting rid of all sounds while
- in the cockpit is not realistic


It would be far more realistic than what we have now...


and will just lead
- to some other undesirable effect.. just like the
- BROKEN FLIGHT MODEL thats allowed to exist because
- MISINFORMED USERS whined for 'realistic' trim, which
- is not realistic because the planes do not fly in a
- matter that is real at all.

All changes in FM required by users had to be supported by data...

Our claim is supported by data as well...


-
- Its taken 1C quite some time to get a sound solution
- that works. Stop trying to screw it up.


If we all agree that constant development toward more and more realism is what FB is about, then newly discovered facts should lead to changes, right?


-
- PS- CSL_Kocour, You requests for information from
- real-life pilots ended in two responses, both of
- opposing viewpoints. I think its impossible for
- anyone to answer the question since anyone who was
- bounced is DEAD. Use a different name when asking
- for information, google forgets noone!

My question was not answered only twice, Baldie, it was answered many times and never I have heard that a pilot could heard an enemy trying to bounce him...

To be bounced and shot down does not mean to be dead...

Also pilots who were on the bouncing end were sneaking up on their prey sometimes for quite a time and they can tell if they heard their prey´s engine...they can also tell if their prey heard them...cuz if it did, it would start moving and uncovering blind spots as a result of that hearing (quite a common thing in FB)...


Simply put a keyword "bounce" or "sound" in the board search and you will find out...

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 12:56 AM
IVJG51_Swine wrote:
Both of these aircraft
- were within 10 feet from each other at a given time.
- I couldn't hear anything from the other aircraft.
- If there hadnt't been radio communications prior to
- his merge I would have never known he was merging
- for formation until I looked over to my right.

Now add into the fact that your plane is probably not even as loud as a high performance WWII fighter and what do you think? Think you can hear better? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehler.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:23 AM
The setting could be applied when externals is turned off. No need for another switch to flip, just link it to no externals. This would leave more room for cockpit noises which would add more flavor....squeaks...hissing from leaks etc.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 02:36 AM
just for the record, i like the sound just the way it is and oppose any kind of removing externals and all that mess.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:04 AM
I'm with SKULLZ on this. We have different "realism" settings for external views, why not have the same for audio ? I certainly can see the point in restricting audinility to preserve the element of surprise. But when I'm watching a gaggle of 109s zooming around a target (usually me) from the external views I definitely want the richest possible auditory experience. If it looks like a movie, it should sound like one. That said, to maintain full the immersion factor you need to only hear what you actually would hear.

By the way in 1.11, heavy flak sounds awesome on a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz. The first time I was engaged by heavy AA in 1.11 I almost jumped out of my seat when the first big shell went off. They are LOUD.

SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- Your concern is valid, and the simple solution, (at
- least it's simple to state), is an option to disable
- all sounds other than the player's own engine and
- hits to players AC, just like we have the option to
- disable external views, to make gunnery
- easy/realistic, turn cockpit on/off. If its too
- hard to implement, then by all means leave it as it
- is.



Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1951.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:56 AM
Hi,

Hey Recon look, you have many real-pilot here and they are helping hand by hand to put the right thing to the right place .....wow ... that is a good


I hope sonar sound will be the history http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



S!

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 03:12 PM
It seems different people hear different things. I know I can hear a FW cannon from miles away, sounds like they are right on my butt, very unerving. Some guns I don't hear too well, while others are very loud from almost any distance.

Sometimes I hear the bounce coming and sometimes I don't. I am not sure but it seems like I usualy don't hear it if I am in the middle of a dogfight so the bouncers engine sound is just added to the din.

I think other sims I have flown you can hear other planes alongside of you but not to the extent of FB. Their engine sound is as loud as your own or louder. In other sims this doesn't seem to be this way. Maybe I am just remembering it wrong, but that is the way I remember it. I really don't think this is a hardware issue except with this software. But this is the engine that FB has and we just have to deal with it.


WYS
AB_Onedoc



Message Edited on 11/08/0302:13PM by AB_Onedoc

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 04:38 PM
by the way,IL2 worked better on my rig,with sound attenuation set to 1 i still unrealisticly heard other planes' engine about 200m away,but at least i could'nt hear gunfire at 10km....

though,as long the sound attenuation is left to user's choice,and not as a difficulty setting,one can cheat...what if the host could set everybody's attenuation to -1000 for the game,then it gets back to user's choice after the game ?

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 07:20 PM
Timmothias wrote:
- just for the record, i like the sound just the way
- it is and oppose any kind of removing externals and
- all that mess.
-
-

You may as well forget it. We'll be dealing with stutters/ pauses soon because these non-programmers think they have all the answers.

Nevermind the facts here. Lets not go after sound-card makers; instead we'll demand an unrealistic approach to something thats already as real as hardware allows.

This is similar to saying "Oleg, I have spent $900 on a video card and still don't get totally blinded when looking at the sun. This is unrealistic. Please fix it.".

Lets all take a moment to reflect on the coming death of progress.

<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 08:27 PM
I Have noticed on my machine the sound is much more relistic on my audigy gamer then my mother boards onboard sound. It might would help If we named are hardware because as someone said before the problem is alot more noticable on cheaper cards. I hope this problem is sorted out because i would think it would be imposible to hear an enemy plane at any dictance with your engine runing . my family run wedge dirt cars that have from 800 to 1100 horse power , they have a open air driver compartment and are not muffled . I know i can not hear another car unless its right beside me with less then 3 feet between me and the exhaust pipes. so it would seem to be even more diffacult to hear a plane with a 2000 HP engine in front of you and inside a closed cockpit.

http://www16.brinkster.com/hawkspage/hawkssig.jpg

Your not getting my buffalo wings

adlabs6
11-08-2003, 08:41 PM
The concept of removing external sounds is good to me. At least this could be a selectable option like removable external views.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:12 AM
I agree bud, 100 percent!
Bump

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:10 PM
Back in IL2 in setup, under sound tab there was a box marked "realistic occlusion" with that selected IL2 sound was fine. Many people requested that this feature be forcable by the host, I recall we were told that was impossible at the time.

Maybe it is too late for FB, but at the very least with BoB make a setting for sound, so we can have reasonable incockpit sound, or out of cockpit sound.

Perhaps we will get lucky and someone will come up with more powerful hardware to do 3D sound. I would think that proper 3D sound would require more power than 3D video, as with video you can pretend that light is everywhere at once and ignore its speed (as well as doppler effects and interference), but the speed of sound is so low it cannot be ignored, not to mention its speed varies with altitude (air density). Imagine if 3D graphics cards had to contend with relativity, doppler shifts and the speed of light varying with gravitational field strength, etc. Throw dynamic weather conditions into the mix and it is a wonder that even remotely realistic sound is at all possible.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 06:02 AM
*bump*

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:44 PM
YES! Oleg! Lets make sound settings a server variable!

While we are at it, lets make video settings a server variable! It will be great! All I'll have to do is buy a super-computer and host a game. Anyone who joins will get CRAP PERFORMANCE because I'll force them to run at higher video settings than thier hardware allows!

And the sound will be sooooo real!



<font face="Courier New">

_____ | _____
_\__(o)__/_
./ \.

</font>

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:03 PM
Ok, now I am back with the larger test results:


The actual test tracks with commentaries stating at which time I heard what can be downloaded here in one package:

http://www.turbolover.wz.cz/il-2/files_fb/tracks/SoundTests.zip

There are also all my sound related settings included in this package together with setup screenshots, sound card model/drivers, sound section from ini and everything required...


Now the conclusions:


1. In terms of the infamous "sonar" both sound dlls are virtually identical.

2. I found out that with headphones on and comfortably loud sound I can hear engine sound of a plane 400m behind me by merely looking 90 degrees to the side which I find QUITE SHOCKINGLY UNREALISTIC! given the accounts of real pilots who say they can/could (312th veterans back in the WWII days) not hear anything at all no matter how close the other plane is/was to them.

3. I am afraid that the current sound engine in terms of realism ("sonar") has quite a serious deficiencies. NOBODY should be able to hear enemy engine sound from ANY distance at all (with the only unlikely exception of a mirror aerobatics where planes are like 1m off each other with exhaust pipes pointing directly at each other´s cockpit)

4. Given the afforementioned hardware limitations I see the only solution in using two different sound dlls. One for external views and one for in-cockpit views. These two sound dlls should be linked (in a way that would prevent hacking and cheating) to the External Views ON/OFF switch in Difficulty settings panel. Switching the external views ON would also switch the external sounds ON. Switching the external views OFF would also switch the external sounds OFF (by using sound dll that has no external sounds modeled in it). This way we would be getting the best available realistic sounds together with realistic views and these settings would be FORCED BY SERVER ON EVERY CLIENT which I find pretty agreeable.

5. Moreover I would like to stress that any solution to this problem should be approached on the "same for all" basis. If there is any other solution than the one above mentioned, there still are some basic rules that should be followed:

Rule1 - Pilot in cockpit only hears HIS OWN engine, maybe a little of his own gunnery, maybe when shells explode in his cockpit and probably when an AAA shell explodes so near that it damages his plane.

Rule2 - The only situation when a pilot should hear external sounds is when his own engine is shut down, but if there are hardware limits that exclude Rule1+Rule2 working together, the Rule1 should quite logically have the priority.

6. That said, I still think that the biggest problem with "sonar" in FB is not sound hardware limitations/dynamic range nor hardware or driver/settings/EAX settings...the biggest problem is developer´s belief that pilots could hear many things from outside world while in their cockpits...I think (and I and others have brought many facts in to prove this case) that this belief is wrong...so, to put it simply: IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO CORRECTLY MODEL SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NOT BE THERE AT ALL

Letu Zdar

CSL_Kocour

XyZspineZyX
11-11-2003, 11:45 PM
Just for refference, when you have two power sources a distance apart from eachother, it is quite possible to detect the far powersource, even if you are sitting on top of the near power source; they do not overwrite eachother.

In otherwords, if you have two *incredibly loud* objects, a distance away from eachother, you can hear both of them, even if you are adjacent to one of them.

Now, if they are producing exactly the same sound, they are likely to be nearly indistiquishable, as their power spectral densities are going to be the same. Now, if they have different PSD's then they will be distinquishable.

I can work through the math and post it, but it's going to take me time, and it is going to be *very* ugly, and it will require a number of assumptions in order to be solvable, things such as assumming that an aircraft attenuates all frequencies, from all directions evenly. I don't want to fight with a vector/frequency dependent filter and I don't think anyone else on this forum does either.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 12:10 AM
maths are good,but physics rely to observation too.Kocour relates RL experience of flying people,not theorems.

if they can't model reality properly,maths fail.Don't go into maths..

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 12:39 AM
Boo hoo. Now that you've lost credibility in a discussion based on facts and realistic (yes, even technically realistic) arguments, you're going to start crying? I can't believe you're digging in on your stance out of pride on this subject when just about every other post I've read of yours is based on intelligent reasoning.

Listen to yourself crying doom and gloom using exaggerations up the ying-yang because you cannot provide a decent argument.

Sorry dude, nothing personal but you may want to look at why you are taking this subject so personally, and I'll save you some time: You really don't want the sound changed for realism because it simply sounds better to you to hear everything you do now.

You know what, I like the sound now too but it's like allowing wireframe view in an FPS game, it kills the tactics. So why not just add it to the difficulty settings like mentioned above? If not, why bother making complex damage models or accurate flight models?

Like I said, no disrespect to you but you can feel free to get all mad and flame me if you like. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oh, and Kocour I think you are doing a marvelous job backing up your arguments with as much facts or circumstancial evidence as possible while keeping an even tone. There is a fine line between working to improve the game and whining, at least in some people's eyes.

cheers


<center>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/nyngje/charvel.JPG

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 05:18 AM
Hey , Kocour thanks for your test sound, seem over all is good
but real external sound did not make any change in 1.2RC which
we all understand they need more time and information befor make
decision for change or not change.


however 1.2 RC01 improve alot of thing and that show us
Oleg M. and his team work hard for us .. Thanks S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



"you can not hear even your guns. you can only feel them." (Czech)
"Ask a formula one driver if he can hear the engine of a car that's right behind him, let alone a whole football field away!" (IV_JG51_Razor)



Hey PriK, I think after "sonar sound" fix, you can hear new sound.. that sound is "crying doom and gloom" LOL

S!

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 06:07 AM
Well, from personal observation, I can hear many relatively quiet things over my cars engine noise. For example, while driving home at about 75 mph, windows closed, radio on, in fairly heavy traffic, I was able to hear a large peice of pink insulation foam hit the pavement about 30 meters away, quite distinctly I might add, and my car is not quiet, nor it is good for distinguishing external sounds in.

Basically, the human ear hears in both logrithmic amplitude, and in linear frequency. If the frequency spectra of the sounds are sufficently different, then one can clearly distinguish the two sounds, even if their power is different on an order of 10^3 times.

Just as a local refference, despite the fact that the bloodly faulty smoke detector has gone off, yet again, and it producing enough power output that I can feel the vibration in my ears, I can still make out the sound of my video card's fan from some distance away, because I know what to listen for, and because I actively tried to hear it. If I focus instead on the busted smoke alarm, I don't hear much else.

In fact that thing is loud enough that it is damaging my ability to hear in that frequency range, and if it continues to go off repeatedly on false alarms then I will not be able to hear it at all in the event of an actuall emergency. Aside from the sheer annoyance factor of having the thing go off for half an hour at a time with no visible provocation, the fact that this will make it nearly useless when it does need to sound, is really ticking me off.

Fortunatly the thing has finally shut off, but my ears still hurt.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 06:57 AM
Well, in FB, at least for me, it's like this if you wish to use the automobile example:

I'm driving my car straight ahead and I can't hear much over my engine.

But I decide to turn my head slightly to the right (since my neck is so stiff, I can't look behind me...different argument- lol) all of sudden the entire world of sound is in my ears. I quickly turn my head forward and presto! it's gone, back to engine.


So, instead of weaving left and right (remember BoB movie: "whatever you do, don't fly straight!") - I simply turn my head left and right. (Great radar system)


With this new flying technique, I can hear aircraft from anywhere - quite convenient.


I would perfer the sound you have when looking forward and not have this 'great positional sound' because I don't think it should be positional outside of the cockpit. Sure it's fun and all the kids like it, but still am not convinced these pilots heard things so easily. If Oleg set to 200m it would be a godsend, it goes out over 1.5m currently with your head slightly turned.

> You hear a bullet hit you on the right as the aircraft shakes, you are aware of the hit from the right. Turn your head slightly left and pick up a slightly different hum of the engine, etc... That are the only positional sounds I care for - not an aircraft at 2 meters on my right side coming in at me.

That is what I picture.
HarryVoyager wrote:
- Well, from personal observation, I can hear many
- relatively quiet things over my cars engine noise.
- For example, while driving home at about 75 mph,
- windows closed, radio on, in fairly heavy traffic, I
- was able to hear a large peice of pink insulation
- foam hit the pavement about 30 meters away, quite
- distinctly I might add, and my car is not quiet, nor
- it is good for distinguishing external sounds in.
-
- Basically, the human ear hears in both logrithmic
- amplitude, and in linear frequency. If the
- frequency spectra of the sounds are sufficently
- different, then one can clearly distinguish the two
- sounds, even if their power is different on an order
- of 10^3 times.
-
- Just as a local refference, despite the fact that
- the bloodly faulty smoke detector has gone off, yet
- again, and it producing enough power output that I
- can feel the vibration in my ears, I can still make
- out the sound of my video card's fan from some
- distance away, because I know what to listen for,
- and because I actively tried to hear it. If I focus
- instead on the busted smoke alarm, I don't hear much
- else.
-
- In fact that thing is loud enough that it is
- damaging my ability to hear in that frequency range,
- and if it continues to go off repeatedly on false
- alarms then I will not be able to hear it at all in
- the event of an actuall emergency. Aside from the
- sheer annoyance factor of having the thing go off
- for half an hour at a time with no visible
- provocation, the fact that this will make it nearly
- useless when it does need to sound, is really
- ticking me off.
-
- Fortunatly the thing has finally shut off, but my
- ears still hurt.
-
- Harry Voyager
-
- <img
- src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvW
- P9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6
- O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVhBgMt3q2T3BUQ8yj
- BBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqByQ/Avatar%202%20
- 500x500%20(final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077">



S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Skies Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://www.forgottenskies.com
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

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Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:08 AM
Now if you want to hear something really trippy, (the blasted thing when off again), depending on how I turn my head, the acoustics of the alarm change. Apparently it's puttin out enough power, that it is actually driving a significant signal through my skull (no mean feat that).

Now for something really trippy, if I go over to the sink, I can hear it fine, without alteration, but if I turn on the faucet the volume noticably drops, while I am standing at the sink.

Noise does strange things.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 07:38 AM
I read the original post and this guy wants to turn all the enviromental sounds off to satisfy his flair for "reaism".

I for one have been in relation with this game for years (since original) because of the beautiful things this game has, sound being one of them.

So yes, it would be a good idea for the developers to implement a switch to turn enviroment sounds off exept the engine for YOUR flair for realism.

BUt i bet most people would leave the switch "ON" for enviromental sounds, like me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 01:35 PM
papote1:

The guy in the original post wants the simulator to reflect the objective reality of what it was like to fly a warbird, and sound is a crucial part of that reality.

I'm glad you have a nice relationship with the current sound, although in real life pilot's didn't hear firing from 60km away and didn't hear enemy bandits bouncing them from 800m+ away by turning their heads slightly to the right.

Making the sound 'nice' and making the sound 'right' are worlds apart.



S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Skies Virtual War
Forum: http://fogwar.luftwaffe.net/forums/index.php
Website: http://www.forgottenskies.com
Visit 609IAP at http://takeoff.to/609IAP

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg

Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 02:00 PM
hi,
in general we need a separate sound patch...

re programming..all sound issues.. to EAX 3 + Dolby surround and high advanced sound features ..

this need more time....small fixes a no fixes...

...just follow my wingman...
http://www.ss.iij4u.or.jp/~jime/images/Me109G6Anim/messer04LAN2.wmv
http://www.roedelmodell.de/original/Me109/me109-4s.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 03:19 PM
i really think realistic sound must be implemented as an option because many people like the "ear candy" and would feel deprived if it was purely removed.

but i still hope we will have realistic sounds in a near future now that Oleg is alerted /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


ha,Harry,got in idea.drive on the highway at MAXIMUM SPEED permitted,and see if you hear a car behind you without being able to see if the driver is a man or a woman.Check at wich distance you can hear the car BEHIND you.then disble sound acceleration in FB,and check the distance at wich you can hear a plane behind you.For me it's 400m.

And it's still not a realistic comparison,because in a plane at 90mph you're on final approach,usual speeds are higher.Plus asphalt transmit vibrations better than air.Plus many things i don't even think off.... experience tells,not theory.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 04:08 PM
I agred with all of you that in a plane is imposible to hear any thing from outside when it is "airbone"...

But I dont thing it is just because the engine sound and the hearphones there is also something all of you seems tobe missing on your explanetion and also something that is missing from FB sound engine.

It is the sond of the wind going through the fuselage ( this noise is huge); this is why is not posible to hear anything from outside, it mask every thing and sometimes, you need the hearphones in order to talk to another person inside the plane without screming when he is not beside you...


I tell you this because, i use to fly alot on a Baron and Cesna 402, that planes were on the company I work for. When you taxi or are parked is possible to hear others plane engine a shuch not as high as FB but you could hear them ( when they are near you.


but when you take off and your speed start to increase is a diferent story the wind sound start to become louder and all outside sound is masket. Also a have an experice on the baron.... we were three on that fly and the pilot wanst using the hearphones, so all of us could hear the controller. on midway to our destination he call for trafic advice it was a DC-9 ....

I didnt hear it coming i just trun my head to the left and there it was more or lest 200 meters away and 100 over us i just hear the engine when it passed a was a low sound with hearphones i could hear nothing...


in a chopper maybe is diferent i thing is something like a plane taxi or on very low speed (a point that this noise start to mitigated) the wind noise is not so high and could be possible to hear but in a plane traveling at leats 200 KM/H i dont think so.... and i think never could hear a plane coming to you at high speed, i think you could hear when it passed, something to do with the doppler effect of the sound.

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 04:41 PM
you're absolutely right,wind sound is not modelled properly at the present time.

Maybe Oleg could have it done.I myself didn't propose itbecause i thought it meant to much extra work,and the main goal here is to obtain inability to use sound engine as a SONAR system,if decided so by user (sigleplayer) or host (multiplayer).But any windsound improvement would be sure welcome !

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 05:20 PM
Hi RED_BEAR8,
Thanks for your real-experience which share for us. your post help us alot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

now ,not only engine sound but wind sound at high speed is a factor that I missing.


PB0_Roll , I agree with you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



S!

"I have flown in formation with prop driven aircraft in real life and I have never been able to hear the other aircraft, even when it was within 5 - 10 feet from my aircraft."(IVJG51_Swine)

XyZspineZyX
11-12-2003, 08:49 PM
THx guys i hope this could help i gona repost this on the sound bug reports to see if the sound develop guy takes the idea....



I dont know if that could be properlly implemented because that noise is ever present since you takeoff and it increase with the speed EAW do this the noise increse with speed... well lets cross the fingers and seehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif....


Message Edited on 11/12/0308:10PM by RED_BEAR8