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Skoshi Tiger
11-24-2006, 04:41 PM
Just having a look at the '46 trailer and it gives us a taste of the new weapons on offer.

I assume the air to air missles shown are not guided and are have either a timed fuse or proximity fuse which (for me at least) will mean a quick missile run at the target and then guns action!

But this leads to the point of the whole purpose of those jet and vtol fighters is to stop those bombers getting through to the target!

Now in 1946 the BIG weapon of the time was the Atomic bomb. Now I know the USSR didn't detonate their first Atomic bomb until 1949, but with an on going war in europe I'm sure the Americans wouldn't have hesitated it passing a few over to it's russian comrades. (Politically I doubt the US could have drop an atom bomb in Europe, not even in Germany!)

So the question is....where's the nukes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Skycat_2
11-24-2006, 05:24 PM
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Tater-SW-
11-24-2006, 08:27 PM
Only Germans get uberweapons, silly.

tater

VW-IceFire
11-24-2006, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Just having a look at the '46 trailer and it gives us a taste of the new weapons on offer.

I assume the air to air missles shown are not guided and are have either a timed fuse or proximity fuse which (for me at least) will mean a quick missile run at the target and then guns action!

But this leads to the point of the whole purpose of those jet and vtol fighters is to stop those bombers getting through to the target!

Now in 1946 the BIG weapon of the time was the Atomic bomb. Now I know the USSR didn't detonate their first Atomic bomb until 1949, but with an on going war in europe I'm sure the Americans wouldn't have hesitated it passing a few over to it's russian comrades. (Politically I doubt the US could have drop an atom bomb in Europe, not even in Germany!)

So the question is....where's the nukes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Nukes are too sensitive to include in a WWII sim (or many sims really). Not really worth debating...we've had 25 page topics on this subject before usually ending in a lock.

The X-4 air to air missile is wire guided I think...the pilot has to control the missle all the way to the target. I think the proximity system works on acoustics so that it would be tuned to a very specific frequency and if that frequency range was hit (i.e. the engine of a B-17 or B-29 bomber) then the warhead would explode. So its not really like a modern day guided missile. This leaves the firing aircraft essentially vulnerable to counter attack by the escort fighters while they guide the missiles in.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Skoshi Tiger
11-25-2006, 01:23 AM
Wow! Wire guide missiles is very sofisticated. I guess we tend to forget that this was the dawn of the space rocketry, computers, Jet aircraft, even TV wasn't too far away.

I think I'ld want a co-pilot/weapons officer to be stearing the missile though!

No more about nukes! Atoms for Peace! Man!

ruby_monkey
11-25-2006, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Only Germans get uberweapons, silly.

tater
To be fair, they had already used guided weapons in anger by this time - witness the Fritz X bomb and the Hs293 missile, both radio controlled by a human operator (was wire guidance used later on for the Hs293?), and both having kills to their credit.

Wilburnator
11-25-2006, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Wow! Wire guide missiles is very sofisticated. I guess we tend to forget that this was the dawn of the space rocketry, computers, Jet aircraft, even TV wasn't too far away.

I think I'ld want a co-pilot/weapons officer to be stearing the missile though!

No more about nukes! Atoms for Peace! Man!

The invention of T.V. predated '46 by 23 years. Kinda freaky when you think about it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG53Frankyboy
11-25-2006, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Just having a look at the '46 trailer and it gives us a taste of the new weapons on offer.

I assume the air to air missles shown are not guided and are have either a timed fuse or proximity fuse which (for me at least) will mean a quick missile run at the target and then guns action!

But this leads to the point of the whole purpose of those jet and vtol fighters is to stop those bombers getting through to the target!

Now in 1946 the BIG weapon of the time was the Atomic bomb. Now I know the USSR didn't detonate their first Atomic bomb until 1949, but with an on going war in europe I'm sure the Americans wouldn't have hesitated it passing a few over to it's russian comrades. (Politically I doubt the US could have drop an atom bomb in Europe, not even in Germany!)

So the question is....where's the nukes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Nukes are too sensitive to include in a WWII sim (or many sims really). Not really worth debating...we've had 25 page topics on this subject before usually ending in a lock.

The X-4 air to air missile is wire guided I think...the pilot has to control the missle all the way to the target. I think the proximity system works on acoustics so that it would be tuned to a very specific frequency and if that frequency range was hit (i.e. the engine of a B-17 or B-29 bomber) then the warhead would explode. So its not really like a modern day guided missile. This leaves the firing aircraft essentially vulnerable to counter attack by the escort fighters while they guide the missiles in. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as Luthier said in an old post, the ingame X-4 will be also usefull in a close-in dogfight against fighters - firing it straight (you know all rockets in game are flying on "rails" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and let the fuse work http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
11-25-2006, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Wow! Wire guide missiles is very sofisticated. I guess we tend to forget that this was the dawn of the space rocketry, computers, Jet aircraft, even TV wasn't too far away.

I think I'ld want a co-pilot/weapons officer to be stearing the missile though!

No more about nukes! Atoms for Peace! Man!
Yeah...they used something similar to the X-4 (or the X-4 itself? I can't remember) from a few different types of German bombers in 1944 and managed to sink several Allied ships. Some may think that this technology is fanciful for 1946 but it really isn't.

WWII is really the beginning point for everything that we have today. There isn't much, including the internet, that wasn't spurred on by necessity of research and development in WWII.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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berg417448
11-25-2006, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by ruby_monkey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Only Germans get uberweapons, silly.

tater
To be fair, they had already used guided weapons in anger by this time - witness the Fritz X bomb and the Hs293 missile, both radio controlled by a human operator (was wire guidance used later on for the Hs293?), and both having kills to their credit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The allies also used guided weapons in combat:

AZON bomb:

Azon was used with moderate success in the Mediterranean and European theaters and with great success in the China Burma India theater where B-24 crews knocked out 14 bridges in seven missions.

http://www.space.edu/LibraryResearch/swanson/Exhibits/Azon.htm

http://www.455th.ukpc.net/tomfeise/455th/458azon.htm

Bat bomb:

The US Navy designed Bat bomb was an active RADAR homed weapon and was used in combat.

http://biomicro.sdstate.edu/pederses/asmbat.html

The TDR-1 Assault Drone

Remote-control or "stand-off" weapons were used in the Pacific. The TDR-1 Assault Drone carried a 2,000 lb. bomb load or torpedo, and included a TV camera for close-in guidance. The control plane carried a crew of four which included two pilots who's job it was to control the flight of the drone.

The U.S. Navy?s first tactical precision guided weapon, the Interstate TDR-1 Assault Drone made some 100 successful attacks against anti-aircraft facilities in the South Pacific."

http://www.stagone.org/ns.html

.

ElAurens
11-25-2006, 03:19 PM
Anyone who thinks that the US would not have used nuclear weapons in a protracted European war is thinking with a 2006 brain, not a 1946 one.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
11-25-2006, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Anyone who thinks that the US would not have used nuclear weapons in a protracted European war is thinking with a 2006 brain, not a 1946 one.
The problem would be supply. Assuming the two nukes were dropped on Japan in this alternate version of history the US would have no more nukes for a while. I forget how long it took for them to produce new versions but the two nukes on Japan was all they had. Truman was bluffing the Soviets on having more.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Snodrvr
11-25-2006, 08:35 PM
The problem would be supply. Assuming the two nukes were dropped on Japan in this alternate version of history the US would have no more nukes for a while. I forget how long it took for them to produce new versions but the two nukes on Japan was all they had. Truman was bluffing the Soviets on having more.

Actually, we had a third bomb that was already in position, about to be loaded into a third plane when the Japanese surrendered. As far as what our arsenal was beyond that, I have no idea.

Aaron_GT
11-26-2006, 01:49 PM
It was projected that by the end of 1945 production of one atomic bomb per month would be possible.

NetDaemon
11-27-2006, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Wilburnator:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
Wow! Wire guide missiles is very sofisticated. I guess we tend to forget that this was the dawn of the space rocketry, computers, Jet aircraft, even TV wasn't too far away.

I think I'ld want a co-pilot/weapons officer to be stearing the missile though!

No more about nukes! Atoms for Peace! Man!

The invention of T.V. predated '46 by 23 years. Kinda freaky when you think about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the 1936 Olympic games held in Berlin were the first ever event internationally broadcasted in television. The nazis wanted to boast about their technological prowess so much.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Klemm.co
11-28-2006, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by NetDaemon:
Actually, the 1936 Olympic games held in Berlin were the first ever event internationally broadcasted in television. The nazis wanted to boast about their technological prowess so much.
One has to wonder what would have happened if the German would have kept absolutely quiet about their technological prowess. What would have been the reaction of the rest of the world if it had first seen the advanced German weapons at the start of the Polish Campaign?

ElAurens
11-28-2006, 10:44 AM
The only thing truely advanced about the German army in the Polish campaign was their tactics.

The Poles had no modern tanks, still deployed cavalry, and had no modern fighter aircraft.

In 1939 the best tank was the British Matilda, and the French had better tanks than the Germans as well.

The Germans won their early battles on the strength and audacity of their tactics, the equipment had little to do with it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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stugumby
11-28-2006, 02:21 PM
Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4

In early 1943, work began on the X-4 air-to-air wire-guided missile by Dr. Kramer at Ruhrstahl. The missile received a development order in the summer of 1943 and was given the number 8-344 by the RLM, and was developed to give fighters a chance to down the ever increasing number of Allied bombers from outside of their defensive gun range.
The X-4 featured a tapering, cigar-shaped fuselage, with four small swept wings and four smaller tail fins. At the ends of two of the opposing wings were small pods which held the wires that unwound during the X-4's flight. On the wing tips of the other two main wings were simple flares to aid the pilot in keeping the X-4 on it's intended path. The tail unit contained small spoilers which could control the missiles pitch and yaw. Power was supplied by the BMW 109-548 rocket engine. The fuel was held in a cleverly designed spiral fuel tank (to save space). A piston was fitted into each coiled fuel tank, and the fuel was pushed into the combustion chamber at the rear of the missile by discharging compressed air to force the piston against the fuel. The two fuels (R-Stoff or Tonka and SV-Stoff or Salbei) were hypergolic, which means they ignited upon contact with each other. A warhead weighing 20 kg (44.1 lbs) with a destructive blast radius of 7.6 meters (25 feet) was mounted in the nose of the missile, being detonated by the pilot, impact or by an acoustical proximity fuse, tuned to the pitch of the bomber's propellers.
A typical flight would have the carrier aircraft reaching the same altitude or slightly higher than the target. The X-4 would be released from the ETC 70 or 71 bomb rack, and would spin at approximately one revolution per second (this was achieved by having the wings slightly offset from the missile center line), the gyro being used mainly for line of flight only. The pilot can then steer the missile (FuG 510/238 "Düsseldorf/Detmold" system) by the use of a small joystick in the cockpit. Seven seconds after launching, the acoustic proximity and impact fuses are armed. A self-destruction fuse is also actuated about 30 seconds after launch. The Kranich acoustical fuse (tuned to the pitch of the bombers propellers) would activate the firing mechanism within 40 meters (131 feet), with an additional slight delay allowed for the distance to close to within five meters (16 feet) before detonation of the warhead. A maximum speed of 1152 km/h (716 mph) could be reached; the range of attack was to be between 1.5 km and 3.5 km (.93 mile and 2.2 miles), although there was 5.5 km (3.4 miles) of wire on the spools.
By August 1944, 225 prototype X-4s had been completed, with the first air launched test occurring on August 11, 1944 by an Fw 190. Tests continued through early February 1945, also by Ju 88s. Test flights were also undertaken by a Me 262 jet fighter with two X-4 missiles under the wings outboard of the jet nacelle, but were not launched.
The production of the X-4 was simple, the fuselage being made up in three sections; a turned steel nose which contained the warhead, a cast aluminum center section and a tail section made from sheet aluminum. The design of the missile was set up so that unskilled labor could assemble the missiles, indeed, the sheet metal sections assembled by tabs in one section being pushed into slots of another section. The plywood wings were secured to the missile's center section with simple nuts and bolts. Approximately 1000-1300 airframes had been finished at Ruhrstahl's Brackwede factory by early 1945, and were awaiting their rocket motors, when the BMW facility at Stargard was bombed, destroying all the finished BMW 109-548 rocket engines. This missile was intended to be issued in numbers to the Luftwaffe by the early Spring of 1945, but the bombing of the BMW rocket engine factory, and the war's end prevented the combat use of the world's first guided air-to-air missile.

Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4 Dimensions Span
(across wings) Length Height
(across wings) Max Diameter
(fuselage)
.575 m
1' 11" 1.907 m
6' 3" .575 m
1' 11" .222 m
8.75"


Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4 Weights Operational R-Stoff RV-Stoff Warhead Engine Wings Bobbin & Wire Battery Gyro & Relays
60 kg
132 lbs 1.7 kg
3.75 lbs 6.3 kg
13.9 lbs 20 kg
44 lbs 25 kg
55.1 lbs 1.5 kg
3.3 lbs 5 kg
11 lbs 1 kg
2.2 lbs 1.5 kg
3.3 lbs


Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4 Performance Max Speed Thrust Duration Acceleration Max Range Glide Ratio
1152 km/h @ 6500 meters
716 mph @ 21325' 1600 kg 33 sec. 3.5 G 5.5 km
3.4 miles 1:5 - 1:6


Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4 Models Manufacturer Scale Material Notes
Airmodel 1/72 Resin w/launch racks, included in Luftwaffe Weapons Set # 1
DML/Dragon 1/72 Injected w/launch racks, included in Me P.1101 kit
RS 1/72 Resin included in BV Ae 607 & Me P.1106
Resin Master 1/72 Resin w/launch racks
Trimaster 1/48 Injected w/launch racks, seperate acoustic or impact noses,
included in Fw 190F-8 kit


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Assembly Procedure of the 8-344 (X-4) air-to-air wire-guided missile


Left: The Kranich Acoustical Fuse.

The Plastic Diaphragm is centered in the missile, and is connected by means of a lever arrangement to a needle-like pointer whose mass is much smaller than that of the diaphragm. Two opposing openings (covered by a fine mesh screen) in the missiles body allow sound to enter to the diaphragm, and when the missile passes through the the transition region of the Doppler frequency shift, the vibrations of the diaphragm excite resonances in the needle, the needle touches an electric contact, completes the circuit and fires the igniter.










Note: the X-4 could be fired at
targets up to 56? away
Abwurfbereich = Release Range
H - 6000 m = Height of 19685 feet
Vo - 180 m/s = Starting Speed of
648 km/h (402 mph)





A wartime photo of the Ruhrstahr/Kramer 8-344 (X-4)



X-4 Details A wingtip bobbin is exposed, revealing the wire spool
One of the coiled fuel tanks, split open to see the piston



A US soldier examines the rear housing of an X-4

X-4 center sections (complete w/BMW 548 rocket engines)
found at the Hovelhofer facility



More component close-up photos from Ray Corridon's webpage

Three stills from a filmed rocket engine bench test



Fw 190A-8, November 1944, during testing
A closeup photo of the small joystick used
to control the X-4 in flight. An elbow rest was
also provided for the pilot on the starboard side
of the cockpit to allow better control and comfort
while guiding the X-4.




The X-4 mounted under a Ju 88 during tests at Karlshagen, August 1944



The X-4 is released, the rocket fires and disappears in the distance in these stills from a filmed test launch





The X-4 Today Cosford Royal Air Force Museum in Shropshire, England
Photo by Graham Causer, May 1998
NASM Paul E. Garber Facility
Photo by Dan Johnson, 1993

Cosford Aerospace Museum, Shropshire, Great Britain
Photo by Matthew Hopson, June 1985
U.S. Airforce Museum, Dayton, Ohio, USA
Photo by Rick Geithmann<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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slo_1_2_3
12-02-2006, 03:28 PM
Ok I just wana check something, When you guys say wire guided it basiucally means its an r/c Missle.?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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berg417448
12-02-2006, 03:31 PM
Not radio controlled...wire guided means a spool of wire unwinds behind the missile. Command signals are sent to the missile via the wires.

wire spool photos may be seen here:

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html

jarink
12-02-2006, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
The only thing truely advanced about the German army in the Polish campaign was their tactics.

The Poles had no modern tanks, still deployed cavalry, and had no modern fighter aircraft.

In 1939 the best tank was the British Matilda, and the French had better tanks than the Germans as well.

The Germans won their early battles on the strength and audacity of their tactics, the equipment had little to do with it.

How true! The main force German tanks were the PzKfw I and II (MGs and 20mm cannon main guns, respectively). Their best tanks were Czech-made PzKfw 35(t) and 38(t). Even in 1940 the Germans tanks were outclassed in gun power and armor by nearly every French and some British tanks. They did, however, have more radios in their tanks and used them in massed formations.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Skoshi Tiger
12-02-2006, 09:44 PM
Very interesting reading. But it one of those things that make you wonder at the thinking that went behind the development of these german "wonder weapons".

Now what were they thinking when they decided to use that Bi-fuel rocket engine. Fantastic as a feat of engineering, and no doubt very powerful and effective. But how much extra time was spent developing it to the operational stage? Surely a solid fuel rocket motor would have been just as effective? (What liquid fuel air to air missile are in service today?) And just think of flying a plane carring a weapon where the slightest leak or damage from a single bullet, flack or debris would cause the fuel to explode? What a way to loose an Ace Pilot!

Maybe if a simpler engine had been used it could have been in service a year earlier when it could have made a difference.

It seams like a lot of these "wonder weapons" (Thank God!) suffered from similar problems.

ElAurens
12-03-2006, 08:54 AM
Skoshi Tiger,

The Germans have always confused complexity with engineering excellence. In their view the more complex a design the better, in order to prove their superiority.

Ask a BMW iDrive owner how they feel about it...

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Skoshi Tiger
12-03-2006, 07:08 PM
Towards the end of WWII the Australian government was looking for a fighter plane to produce locally under licence. It ended up comming down to two contenders. The Spitfire VIII (I think) and P51D.

A lot of the pilots and public wanted the Spitfire, but in the end it came down to the fact that the Spitfire was a more complex design and took longer to build (I think it was about an extra 10,000 man hours per plane, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

We ended up with the P51, which in the long run was a much better choice. They ended up serving us right up to the middle of the Korean War.

tigertalon
12-03-2006, 07:55 PM
Anyone knows how are we gonna control this X-4?

Mouse would be the best solution IMO. Pressing C would activate mouse, but pilot would stay in cockpit with all the other controls, and guided the missile with a mouse (analogy of aiming a gunner weapon). Pressing C again would return the mouse into 'normal' mode, for looking around and moving map etc.

I can't imagine we would have to deactivate our joystick and fly controllessly while aiming missile with it...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Snodrvr
12-03-2006, 10:13 PM
I personally hope they map it to a POV hat, Preferably with an option to change it to keyboard controls for those without joysticks.

It's a real shame though that PF reads the ministick on the X-52 as a mouse, If there was a way to change that you'd have the perfect method of guiding the missles.

slo_1_2_3
12-04-2006, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
Not radio controlled...wire guided means a spool of wire unwinds behind the missile. Command signals are sent to the missile via the wires.

wire spool photos may be seen here:

http://www.luft46.com/missile/x-4.html Whoa when you guys said wire guided I thought it was some weird term for r/c but I didn't think it was actually a wire. MAn I'd hat eto be the guy that draws the short wire on that one ...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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