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View Full Version : Beta Testers Agree: The P-47 Roll Rate Is Still Wrong



XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:42 AM
Gibbage, and several others here, as well as beta testers posting at SimHQ agree, the P-47 roll rate is still wrong.

The P-47s is rolling twice as slow as it should at 500kmph.

Oleg, please correct this before patch release.

Regards,

SkyChimp

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:42 AM
Gibbage, and several others here, as well as beta testers posting at SimHQ agree, the P-47 roll rate is still wrong.

The P-47s is rolling twice as slow as it should at 500kmph.

Oleg, please correct this before patch release.

Regards,

SkyChimp

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:45 AM
Dude, I don't know if you've noticed, but test08 is not the final release of the patch. There are many other things unchaged besides the P-47 roll rate.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:45 AM
The P-47 does seem to roll slower than it should, and I would like to see it corrected. That it, if it is really wrong...

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:46 AM
How about u wait till the patch comes out. The roll rate has been talked about to death, and I think Oleg knows about it already.

Message Edited on 07/21/0308:47PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:47 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- Dude, I don't know if you've noticed, but test08 is
- not the final release of the patch. There are many
- other things unchanged besides the P-47 roll rate.


Dude, when should I bring this up? After it's released?

If no one mentions it, it won't get fixed.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://pages.prodigy.net/4parks/_uimages/SkyChimp.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:50 AM
I'm not saying I have any great faith in patches, but I would think that the countless threads on the same topic would be adequate for the dev team to be aware of the problem.

Then on the second day, it was made bug free, and He saw that it was good.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:54 AM
Salute SkyChimp

Oleg knows many people have a concern that the rollrate is incorrect. The information has been forwarded.

I don't think further discussion of this issue is helpful.


Thankyou RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:37 AM
Well, alot of things HAVE been changed.
Beta 08 is like a whole different game and it's superb.
They didn't re-kindle an old flame, they threw gasoline on it- there are seeminglt countless small changes, from the sound of the flak to the very "human" AI to the increase in framerate- that will keep FB on my HDD for at least 2 more years, I bet.

But the P-47 is still pretty much the same or a tiny bit worse.

You think they'll do a re-work between 08 and final release?
hope your right.

S!
Chris




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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:00 AM
Well I sure hope this doesnt turn into a thread like the FW-190 cockpit thread that just keeps on going and going and going and............/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:09 AM
I hope not too, Bear.


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:29 AM
No! I would rather see a 30 page Fw~47 (or whatever) thread than see the Recovery Room spammed by multiple P~190 (or whatever) threads. One super long thread will draw attention to something that does bother alot of people without getting in the way of everybody. Still, the sheer concept of SkyChimp as thread spammer is delicious. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hey, Chimp is Missing In Action on the dark gunsight glass. Like wozop with that?

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:39 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
-
- Dude, when should I bring this up? After it's
- released?
-
- If no one mentions it, it won't get fixed.
-

You have had discussion with Oleg about this issue - hence, IMHO, if he intends to make a change it should already be in the project plan.
The complexity of this application, and the large number of changes to be implemented would make the update/test planning a huge undertaking. If the team were still deciding on what to modify at this late stage it would be a recipe for disaster.
Therefore I dare to suggest that your case is already won or lost (hopefully Oleg was convinced).

Speculations and observations based on leaked beta software - whilst entertaining to read - don't shed very much light on the designer's final intention. Now a leaked project plan - that would be another matter /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Salute

Athos



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:51 AM
hi,
..hm..but even the same.. old 'wrong' 'real things'...
+ a never ending story of critic up to that time... the developer will wake up out of their stubbornness....
+ fix the old mistakes...+ some more ...

...maybe the leaked patch testing ..will force finally more progress to the developer ....but at the moment they are not able to convert it ...
..or they are not willing to improve it ?



Bearcat99 wrote:
- Well I sure hope this doesnt turn into a thread like
- the FW-190 cockpit thread that just keeps on going
- and going and going and............<img
-

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:15 AM
This is not whining... this is PREWHINING. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:20 PM
the last beta ended more then a month ago the official release has many changes that beta testers and leakers dont know about.


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:22 PM
Stop the madness.P47 rolls in the betas like it should.

Roll rate is fixed.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:30 PM
Is the roll rate wrong? Does the p-47 roll at low alt which this sim is meant to be played? The p-47 did not play any roll in the eastern front fighting. I wonder if that is why it won't be fixed

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:37 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- This is not whining... this is PREWHINING.

How long did it take to fix the 109Gs FM? There was lots of whinning before it was fixed and a couple of patchs.

Nothing wrong with wanting to make sure the P-47s FM is fixed before the patch is released. And, from what has been said it seems that it has not been fixed.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:05 PM
"But the P-47 is still pretty much the same or a tiny bit worse."

I have 08 and I must say it has vastly improved what I felt was already a great game. I am extremely impressed with what they have done so far and excited for the final release. Not sure if it's the increased frame rate or what but the graphics seem much more real. The sound is now amazing! It really draws you into the game and makes you feel like one with your plane.

Anyhow, about the P-47: I flew this plane and P-40 alot in FB 1.0 and found it to be a frustrating experience most of the time. The stall and e-bleed characteristics were VERY annoying. Since 08 the P-47 has become an extremely enjoyable aircraft to fly (same for the P-40 as well). No more sudden stalls, it retains energy very well, you can dive your way out of trouble easily, zoom climb is nice and the fire power has been slightly increased (maybe). Actually I never bought into the "P-47 .50's are too weak" threads. The 8 .50s can bring down anything in the game, just got to fire within the convergence and a 1 sec burst usually does it. I've found that setting the convergence to 210m and 190m for MG and cannon respectively works very, very well.

As for the roll rate maybe it could be sped up just a tad, but as many people have noted 08 is NOT the final release and this may have already been addressed. Even if it stays as it is in 08 the Jug will still be an impressive machine. Besides, I don't think that a better roll rate is that important for this aircraft. P-47 is made to B&Z with use of team tactics. Taking it down low and slow turn fight, mano e mano, is a great way to die.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:58 PM
I have 08 and the P-47's roll rate doesn't feel any faster than before. I would like to see some concrete figure quoted before concluding it has been corrected from the initial release. The P-47 does benefit from what feels to be better energy retention in gentle turns and seems to have a faster top speed, but to me it doesn't otherwise feel much different. It still seems to stall in an abrupt manner. However, the changes are still enough to make it a much better a/c.

Regards,

RocketDog.

BM357_Raven
07-22-2003, 08:05 PM
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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:28 PM
S! All


You guys are missing the point about the roll rate so I'll post it over here too.The reason the roll rate is so very important is that is how real P47 Fighter Pilots manuevered the aircraft to be able to turn with a 109 or 190.

The "Lead Roll" or "Vector Roll" as it was known was a barrel roll plus pull through in the opposite direction of the turn of a 109/190 and allowed a 47 to turn with a 109. All of the top 47 Aces utilized the 47's roll rate to accomplish this manuever and it worked extremely well.

In EAW our Squadron dominated quite well above 25k with the P47 and P51 in all models. Once you got the altitude advantage the 47 was quite the boom n zoomer and the engine was quite strong up high. I thought the flight model of the Jug in EAW was pretty dang accurate. I was able to utilize the "Vector Roll" in EAW.



Cheers, BigKahuna

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:52 PM
"You guys are missing the point about the roll rate so I'll post it over here too.The reason the roll rate is so very important is that is how real P47 Fighter Pilots manuevered the aircraft to be able to turn with a 109 or 190.

The "Lead Roll" or "Vector Roll" as it was known was a barrel roll plus pull through in the opposite direction of the turn of a 109/190 and allowed a 47 to turn with a 109. All of the top 47 Aces utilized the 47's roll rate to accomplish this manuever and it worked extremely well."

Perhaps I'm not as knowledgable as I should be when commmenting on the roll rate. I'm just happy the the Jug is now fun to fly in 08. I was not aware of the Vector Roll manueuver though it sounds cool. Was roll to the left? I remember reading a very interesting P-47 pilot account describing roll characteristics. I think he said it rolled much faster to the left then to the right and he used that to his advantage.

Anyways perhaps you could create a track demonstrating the vector roll so I can see it in action.

S!

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 04:39 PM
yes please show us what u mean with the Vector roll

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 07:12 PM
The Jug rolls a bit faster than it did. Just not enough. I'd say right now its roll rate is somewhere between what it was and what it ought to be.

Before, it rolled like a bomber. (Seriously; I tried rolling the Heinkel and it wasn't much slower than the Jug.) Now, it rolls more like a fighter - just not a very good one.

I wouldn't say it rolls twice as slowly as it should. Maybe about one and a quarter, one and a third times?

Sorry for the imprecision, but I'm not uninstalling the patch just so I can make a comparison on a plane I don't even want to fly. (They could get the FM perfect and I still couldn't stand looking at that hideous all-corners no-textures gunsight.)

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:47 PM
I think there are bigger problems with FB 1.1 beta08...the physics of the sim engine seems borked...

BTW, did you know the P-47 suffers from unrecoverable flat spins in vertical stalls now? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers,

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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:56 PM
fjuff79 wrote:
- yes please show us what u mean with the Vector roll

If the enemy breaks left, you start a barrel roll to the right, and as you complete a half roll and turn left as you come out the bottom of the barrel, you exit the barrel roll maintaining this left turn, thus placing you behind the enemy with a much smaller deflection angle.

A Big Truck does exactly the same kind of thing when doing a wide turn, for a 90 degree left turn, you begin by turning right to widen the turn, then you turn hard left, thus acheiving a much easier angle.

If the P47 rolls as slow as it does, the enemy may almost be getting to your tail as you expedite a slow barrel roll, losing velocity and altitude all the while.



Message Edited on 07/23/0309:58PM by Flightvector

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 01:37 PM
chris455 wrote:
- Well, alot of things HAVE been changed.
- Beta 08 is like a whole different game and it's
- superb.
- They didn't re-kindle an old flame, they threw
- gasoline on it- there are seeminglt countless small
- changes, from the sound of the flak to the very
- "human" AI to the increase in framerate- that will
- keep FB on my HDD for at least 2 more years, I bet.
-
- But the P-47 is still pretty much the same or a tiny
- bit worse.
-
- You think they'll do a re-work between 08 and final
- release?
- hope your right.
-
- S!
- Chris

The P-47s roll rate is vastly improved...I dont know enought to say if iot is right yet but it is definitely better.

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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:49 PM
The week of August 4th huh?

Well, what's another week. I guess we'll see then. Until then, I'll just have to be entertained by these "Roll-Rate discrepency" posts.



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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 05:57 PM
Taz is right. (Not a phrase I often have occasion to use.) The Jug does spin now. It spun before, but it spins worse now.

And that is quite simply wrong. Hasn't everyone seen the official USAAF training movies at Zeno's site? They go into considerable detail about the P-47's stalling characteristics; they advise the pilot to test his own plane to find out its particular stalling point, and they show a pilot doing it. And you can see that it's a very clean stall, very easy to deal with, nothing at all like the abrupt and even violent stall of the FB Jug.

They also say very clearly, about stalling: "The P-47 drops straight down. IT HAS NO TENDENCY TO SPIN."

If the Jug really had the vicious stall and spin characteristics it exhibits in FB, the USAAF would hardly have encouraged pilots to deliberately stall it just to get the feel of it, would they? They'd have had dead trainees all over the landscape.

So that's another area, quite apart from the roll rate, in which the FM of the P-47 in FB is clearly wrong.

But then this is not the first time those training movies have revealed discrepancies in a Maddox model. Ever watch the one on the P-39? Either the movie is wrong or the P-39 in both Il-2 and FB has totally incorrect landing characteristics. Try landing the Snake the way they tell you in the training movie, and you'll wreck it every time.

These flicks are readily available so I don't see why the designers couldn't be bothered to watch them and take a few notes....

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 08:02 PM
S!

FlightVector gave a good description of the "Vector Roll" :

fjuff79 wrote:
- yes please show us what u mean with the Vector roll

>>>>If the enemy breaks left, you start a barrel roll to the right, and as you complete a half roll and turn left as you come out the bottom of the barrel, you exit the barrel roll maintaining this left turn, thus placing you behind the enemy with a much smaller deflection angle.<<<<<<<

A track now wouldnt do the "Vector Roll" justice with such a slow roll rate the 47 has currently.

_____________________________


I thought you might want to read this excerpt from Military History Magazine interview of Robert S. Johnson (P47 driver) on aircraft types vs aircraft ruggedness :


MH: Pilots generally swear by their aircraft. Günther Rall and Erich Hartmann praised the Messerschmitt Bf-109, Erich Rudorffer and Johannes Steinhoff the Me-262, and Buddy Haydon the P-51 Mustang. I have to say after seeing all of the old photos of the various Thunderbolts and others that were shot up, I can't imagine any other plane absorbing that much damage and still flying. What is your opinion of your aircraft?

Johnson: This is very similar to the German debate. As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the FW-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed--so much of the experience was gone. As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that. I was always scared--that was what made me move quick. "Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down.

When his combat tours were finished, Johnson returned Stateside, to a hero's welcome.

XyZspineZyX
07-25-2003, 03:11 AM
The main reason we keep bringing this up is because many of us fear that if we don't it will become lost in the forums and forgotten. Other aircraft has consistently dominated this forum, in terms of thread count, and post count, and they have gotten all of the fixes and corrections, abeit, not always the ones they were expecting or hoping for. Meanwhile, the Yak-1 was without its rockets for over a year, until FB came out. (I know that I contacted Oleg, and got a responce from him regaurding the lack of rockets on the Yak-1, a plane I flew very heavily at the time, and this was only a month after the Yak-1 had been released.)

I can make track of vecotr rolls in the 190, P-39, and P-47. With the 190, a properly executed vector roll allows a turn to any point in under seven seconds. The P-47 takes ten last I timed it. I do not remember off the top of my head how long the P-39 took. When one considers that the 190's turn time is listed at 22 to 24 seconds, being able to revers in merely seven seconds is impressive. When one also considers that it burns almost no E, it is incredible.

Harry Voyager

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The_Blue_Devil
07-25-2003, 03:57 AM
Yea those Flat spins are pretty stupid. I guess they figured that we wouldn't notice that she breaks into unrecoverable flat spins without warning since the roll rate is now half decent. What really got me mad was that I bailed out during a flat spin and got hit by my own bloody plane..

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Tully__
07-25-2003, 10:45 PM
Please leave assesments of patch performance until we have the finished product.

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