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Darth_Reagan
10-15-2008, 10:04 AM
Interesting account of a P-51 pilot getting shot down by small arms fire and in a later mission downing a me-262.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af2_1224077247

general_kalle
10-15-2008, 05:06 PM
"after the war i met the me262 pilot again and he thanked me for saving his life"
as the other pilots of his unit were dead he got a bullet wound and didnt have to fly.

" i said no problem, any time"
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

no problem...i'd shoot you down anytime or what? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buzzsaw-
10-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Salute

I think both pilots were lucky, the P-51 for surviving going into compressibility, and the 262 pilot for surviving the dogfight.

Just goes to show though, that the P-51 was capable of diving to very high speeds and surviving. Certainly not the paper winged plane we have in the game.

julian265
10-16-2008, 06:39 PM
Our '51 will safely get to 900 km/h, just be really gentle with it's controls at high speed and you'll keep your wings.

Buzzsaw-
10-16-2008, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by julian265:
Our '51 will safely get to 900 km/h, just be really gentle with it's controls at high speed and you'll keep your wings.

There is no other aicraft where you move your controls a tiny amount at only 700 kph, and you rip your wings off.

900 kph is only accomplished in the P-51 if you keep your controls ABSOLUTELY still, and let the aircraft slow down to 700 before doing anything. Other aircraft like the 109K4 can dive to 900 kph, move their controls to the maximum with ZERO problems. They never rip their wings off unless they exceed the max dive speed. This despite the fact the 109's wing and fuselage structure was far weaker than the P-51, and their max. dive speed advisories historically were much less.

Historically the 109's had a problem with ripping their wingtips off on the use of ailerons at high speed. This dated from the time the F model and its new wings came into service. The Luftwaffe issued numerous advisories regarding this problem, cautioning their pilots not to exceed dive speed advisories.

There is nothing modelled in the game to take this into account.

I have discussed with the original FORGOTTEN BATTLES ACES EDITION playtesters the issue of the P-51's wings, and have been told the P-51 was the only aircraft modelled with these wingrip characteristics. This is not accurate. The P-51 only had a problem when its fuselage tank was more than half full, and that related to CoG reversal. When the fuselage tank was less than half full the P-51 was no more vulnerable than any other aircraft, in fact, as mentioned, the wing structure was actually quite sturdy.

Kettenhunde
10-16-2008, 07:18 PM
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/p51dwingfaliure1gp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/p51dwingfaliure1gp4.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img528/p51dwingfaliure1gp4.jpg/1/)

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5272/p51dwingfailurejp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/p51dwingfailurejp4.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img337/p51dwingfailurejp4.jpg/1/)

Enjoy.

All the best,

Crumpp

Buzzsaw-
10-16-2008, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/p51dwingfaliure1gp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/p51dwingfaliure1gp4.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img528/p51dwingfaliure1gp4.jpg/1/)

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5272/p51dwingfailurejp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/p51dwingfailurejp4.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img337/p51dwingfailurejp4.jpg/1/)

Enjoy.

All the best,

Crumpp

Here we have a typical Kettenhunde moment. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Take a actual document, then crop it so relevant qualifiers are not visible, then try to assert the notes apply to other situations which are not relevant.

These documents refer to the issue of the fuselage tank and the fact that the CoG is reversed when it is more than half full.

And as ANYONE knows who has studied the issue, except those with a AGENDA, the problem disappears when the tank is less than half full.

But that's Kettenhunde. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


Originally posted by Kettenhunde:

Yes I disapprove of the fact that my country is not using my tax dollar to bomb the **** out of any Russian effort to spread nuclear technology to countries that support terrorism.



Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
Personally I am not supporting any Russian Companies with my money



Without the products of the bear, you might as well give up simming.


Originally posted by Kettenhunde:

Games you mean. Not much of an issue from my point of view!

Buzzsaw-
10-16-2008, 08:57 PM
Salute

Here are the flying limitations for the P-51:

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/4356/must17di8.jpg

Notice, that except when carrying bombs, drop tanks or when the fuselage tank is full, the only limitation noted is the 505 mph dive limit.

Buzzsaw-
10-16-2008, 09:02 PM
Salute

Flying Limitations of the Me 109 G (from: Technical Instructions of the Generalluftzeugmeister, Berlin, 28th August 1942.)

Reference Me 109 - wing breakages. Owing to continually recurring accidents caused by wing breakages in Me 109 aircraft attention is drawn to the following:

(1) The maximum permissible indicated airspeeds in the different heights are not being observed and are widely exceeded. On the basis of evidence which is now available the speed limitations ordered by teleprint message GL/6 No. 2428/41 of 10.6.41 are cancelled and replaced by the following data:

Up to 3 km (9,842 ft.) 750 km/h. (466 m.p.h.)
At 5 km (16,404 ft) 700 km/h. (435 m.p.h.)
At 7 km (22,965 ft) 575 km/h. (357 m.p.h.)
At 9 km (29,527 ft) 450 km/h. (280 m.p.h.)
At 11 km (36,089 ft) 400 km/h. (248 m.p.h.)

These limitations are valid for the time being for all building series including the Me 109 G. A corresponding notice is to be placed upon all air-speed indicators in aircraft.

(2) Yawing in a dive leads to high one-sided wing stresses which, under certain circumstances, the wing tip cannot support. When a yawing condition is recognised the dive is to be broken off without exercising force. In a flying condition of yawing and turning at the same time correction must be made with the rudder and not the ailerons. The condition of wing tips is to be examined and checked with TAGL. Bf 109 Nos. 5/41 and 436/41.

(3) Unintentional unlocking of the undercarriage in a dive leads also - especially if only one side unlocks - to high wing stresses. Observation and the carrying out of TAGL. No. 11/42 and the following numbers is, therefore specially important.
Note. Trouble has been experienced owing to undercarriage unlocking in a dive and a modification has been brought out to prevent this.

.......The dive speed limits listed above are also to be found in Vorläufige Fluggenehmigung BF 109 G-2 and G-6

Dive limitations from: Bf 109 G-2, G-4, G-6 Bedienungsvorschrift, June 1943 edition

Dive: Adjust trim in such a way that the airplane can be held in a dive. The elevator forces and tailplane loads become great at high speeds. The tailplane adjustment must work perfectly; otherwise shifting of the tailplane is possible.
Sturzflug: Trimming so einstellen daß das Flugzeug durch Drücken im Sturzflug gehalten werden kann. Die Höhenruderkräfte und Flossenbelastungen werden bei hoher Fahrt sehr groß. Hemmung der Flossen verstellung muß einwandfrei arbeiten; sonst ist Selbst verstellung der Flosse möglich.

Maximum diving speed 750 km/h. Hard aileron manipulation while diving leads to failure, particularly when pulling out. Höchstzulässige Sturzfluggeschwindigkeit 750 km/h. Harte querruder betätigung im Sturz und besonders beim Abfangen führt zum Bruch.

Kettenhunde
10-16-2008, 09:57 PM
Wow!

I think you have some real issues, Buzzsaw. You do know this is a game. WWII is over and these computer shapes you play with on it are not the real thing.

The real P51 was not immune to physics and neither is any other aircraft.

Do you want to talk about the P51 or do you want to talk about the Bf-109? There problems were very different. As for the speeds, it is silly to discuss as nobody could accurately measure transonic speeds during the war, they just did not know enough about normal shock formation.

Technical Order 01-60J-28 was posted because the topic was the P51.

The problem of the P51 wing disappears when you do not exceed the limits of the aircraft which is all the TO points out. The wings tested were within the airframe tolerances and the only conclusion is the pilots exceeded the placarded limits.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8893/p51dwingfailureresultspc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/p51dwingfailureresultspc6.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img521/p51dwingfailureresultspc6.jpg/1/)

I fail to see how that does not support your claim that the P51 could be dove safely to high speeds. Nor do I see how it does not support the fact exceeding the POH limits is a very dangerous thing to do in any aircraft.

All the best,

Crumpp

Daiichidoku
10-17-2008, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
the paper winged plane we have in the game.

id guess youre trolling, as most ppl know that all a.c. in FB break wings at 15G, and the P51 has been given artifically sensitive elevators in response to Mustang fans (as far as i recall) showing it was previously insufficent

AND

that adjusting your stick settings can completely eliminate the possibility of exceeding 15G loads



but if this is news to you, then.....there ya go