PDA

View Full Version : Game creation: Challenging fun vs. annoying frustration



ProdiGurl
12-05-2011, 08:28 AM
I've been noticing alot of different opinions in what's fun in AC and what's completely irritating and I'm wondering where the fine line is that something goes from fun & challenging to outright annoying?

This confuses me a little - some things that people find annoying, others don't.
One for instance is that I love rebuilding a city - buying them one by one and taking it over. It's partly what the reward system is for & puts it to use. I'd actually like more strategy involvement w/ it somehow, but others think it's pointless & to scrap it altogether.
Stuff like that.

How is Ubi to figure out which is which & keep us happy in AC3?

Just wondered if you guys had some details on what makes something irritating & ruins it as opposed to adding game content & challenge to things?

LightRey
12-05-2011, 08:44 AM
The only kind of challenges I like to see in AC are challenges involving strategy and thinking of creative solutions to problems. I want the challenge to be in figuring out a route through an enemy camp without being spotted, or what (kind of) weapon to use in what (kind of) situation.

I don't feel the need for there to be challenging combat. I want myself and other players to have the freedom to just hack 'n slash our way through.

luckyto
12-05-2011, 09:01 AM
I'm sure it differs from person to person. ACB was the only game in the AC franchising that had elements where were outright frustrating. ACR has some annoying elements (targeting), but nothing that will make you throw a controller across the room.

richterthiago
12-05-2011, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
The only kind of challenges I like to see in AC are challenges involving strategy and thinking of creative solutions to problems. I want the challenge to be in figuring out a route through an enemy camp without being spotted, or what (kind of) weapon to use in what (kind of) situation.

I don't feel the need for there to be challenging combat. I want myself and other players to have the freedom to just hack 'n slash our way through.
THIS.

I don't think the combat should be too hard either. That's not the purpose of the game, at least not in my view. I'd much rather have to figure out HOW to do something, strategize, find clever ways of solving the problems, rather than fight incredibly powerful guards. They are only guards after all. Not Templar Masters. They're not Cesare. We play as Assassins. Obviously, we should be more skilled then some henchmen.
I quite liked the challenging system of the first AC, and once you understand how to work it, you have to focus on thinking and improvising, not to become a button-mashing, button-pressing wiz. Maybe a mix between the new and the old? AC2 combat was pretty sweet too. It should be about wits and precision, not about controller-handling technique and velocity.

So yeah, I very much like the combat system, I think it's a good suite for the game's purpose, but there is always room for little tweaks and improvements.

DavisP92
12-05-2011, 11:37 AM
I agree with LightRey when it comes to finding new strategies to reach, kill and escape the target. But i don't like seeing AC as a hack and slash game, where a 7 year old could kill every guard in the game. I'd like it to be somewhat more challanging then it is now. Haha but i think what I really want for the game isn't even possible :P. but yea if it had maybe two guards attacking at once, and animations for that. I like the stalkers, pretty much more stuff where your enemies can do a lot of damage and get the best of u a few times. (first time i saw a stalker i didn't know what do to i was just pressing random buttons lol, then i saw what i was suppose to do and now they're too easy)

ZCherub
12-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
The only kind of challenges I like to see in AC are challenges involving strategy and thinking of creative solutions to problems. I want the challenge to be in figuring out a route through an enemy camp without being spotted, or what (kind of) weapon to use in what (kind of) situation.

I don't feel the need for there to be challenging combat. I want myself and other players to have the freedom to just hack 'n slash our way through.

I would like more strategy when navigating around guards as well - I.e. More stealth. The problem is, you CAN simply hack & slash, so there's no need. The penalty is desynchronization on certain missions, which I get. In free roam, though, the penalty for getting spotted by a dozen highly trained & heavily armored guards should be - you guessed it, overwhelming beat down...

There is zero motivation for stealth in these games anymore because you are so godlike in your combat ability. It's fun, but there should be some additional challenge when fighting 12+ guards.

freddie_1897
12-05-2011, 11:51 AM
Frustration = something which is hard and cannot be strategically planned or only has one option for completion. E.g. The carriage mission at the beginning of ACR.

Challenging fun = something which Is hard, has different ways of solving and is quite clear as to what your supposed to do. E.g. The janissary mission where you have to infiltrate the camp in ACR.

The first example had me screaming after a while.
The second example had me enthralled when I didn't manage it the first time.

kriegerdesgottes
12-05-2011, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by LightRey:
The only kind of challenges I like to see in AC are challenges involving strategy and thinking of creative solutions to problems. I want the challenge to be in figuring out a route through an enemy camp without being spotted, or what (kind of) weapon to use in what (kind of) situation.

I don't feel the need for there to be challenging combat. I want myself and other players to have the freedom to just hack 'n slash our way through.

exactly. Remember how fun Prince of Persia was and why? Prince of Persia's combat was never terribly difficult or advanced but it sure was an awesome game because it put you in beautiful areas and let you try to figure out how to get from point A to Point B or how to use strategy to open a giant door or something and those games were brilliant.

Darren_Evans
12-05-2011, 12:50 PM
There are good and bad ways of making something an enjoyable challenge and the good ways are obviously harder to design than the bad.

Examples of bad ways to make something difficult in a game are when gameplay designers decide to change the controls of a game you've been playing hours for, or force awkward camera angles on you. Examples of this in Revelations is the when you are climbing and the designers decide to lock the camera into awkward positions.

I also hatre it when the designers intentionally make the controls (be it gamepad or mouse & keyboarrd) awkward and sluggish for some section of a game, evenm though the controls have been fine up to that point. This can be seen in the scene where Ezio has blown up the chain blocking the ships in the harbor and he takes control of the Greek Fire Cannon. Aiming that cannon is a chore.

Another game I'm playing in which mouse control suddenly becomes crap is Dead Island. Looking around with the mouse while you're not driving is responsive and normal but as soon as you get into a car and try to look around, it's like your head suddenly becomes heavier than lead and interia is applied to the controls.

These kind of cheap tricks to make something difficult only serve to make the gameplay a chore instead of a challenge and have no place in todays games.

SolidSage
12-05-2011, 01:22 PM
Combat couldn't be any easier than it is now with Recruits and all kinds of factions come to your rescue. The lone combat though is fantastic, it isn't button mashing, although you can do that if you like, it is much deeper and has a real skill to it. The combat, is the single most appealing aspect of Creed to me. It's phenomenal and shouldn't be altered.
Free running and travel is excellent and still being improved.
Exotic gameplay is a nice change of pace and fun.
The Towers are getting better. Recruits and den defense is fun, as is med defense, all nice additions to a well rounded game.

The stealth can be improved, more missions that require it's use, and more missions that require some planning and strategy. I do agree on those points, not because I care for it that much, but Creed has room for a lot of diversity, and appealing to more people will ensure the franchise's continuation. And, it IS fun now and again.

Honestly it comes down to this I think, people who have a personal idea of what Creed is for 'them' and players who enjoy what has been developed and trust what the developes are doing with the franchise. I don't really feel the need to interfere or over critique, they have given me four fantastic games without much input on my end at all.
I think they knkow what they are doing and can certainly imagine a better idea for a game than I ever have. I mean, really all we do here is get inspired by their creation and try to alter it to suit our personal specific desires or tastes.

DavisP92
12-05-2011, 01:58 PM
they could do something with countering a counter. If you counter a guard and he counters you then u have to counter his counter. would be interesting to see

Serrachio
12-05-2011, 02:20 PM
I would like it in AC3 if most of the gadgets were stripped from the gameplay.

AC1 lacked gadgets but it was balanced enough with the Dagger, Sword, Hidden Blade, Fists and Throwing Knives.

AC2 brought Maces, Spears, Heavy Weapons, a second Hidden Blade, Poison, New Assassination Techniques, Smoke Bombs, Throw Money and a Pistol.

We then got from ACB a Crossbow, Poison Darts and Parachutes.

ACR added more with the Hookblade, Ziplines and Bombs.

AC3 doesn't really need all this, and I don't want to be a walking armory.

I don't need Explosive bombs (or tactical really), I don't need a Pistol, I only ever need Parachutes when I'm told to use them, or when I've jumped off a building accidentally towards my doom and it seems the Hookblade now is the miraculous saviour of the game anyway.

Crossbow isn't really that necessary with Knives, but it's better than the Gun. Poison needs to be a manual procedure once more because shooting a guard with a dart means less risk.

Throwing Money was rather pointless and while there may be heavy swords and axes, there are no mauls and spears to use for the Heavy Sheath.

I'm kinda bored of how Ubisoft keeps sticking in gadgets and gizmos to each game, because then I speed through the game faster and faster each time, or I never find them of much use to me.

DavisP92
12-05-2011, 02:27 PM
that's one reason why i'd like to play as a newb assassin instead of a master assassin.

Has anyone seen how AC was orginally created (the first ever demo) it was a lot harder then it is now in ACR. One hit and you die http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif. they had better physics (i could be wrong tho, i'm just refering to two moments). They even had the horses entering cities. There was even a parkour move/vault that still isn't even in any of the AC games now. AC3, imo should be like this but better. The way you enter cities, how you kill your target and try to escape the city and the guards can close the gate. Demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUlSWpjmHf4&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsear ch_query%3DAssassin%2527s%2Bcreed%2Bfirst%2Bdemo%2 6oq%3DAssassin%2527s%2Bcreed%2Bfirst%2Bdemo%26aq%3 Df%26aqi%3D%26aql%3D%26gs_sm%3De%26gs_upl%3D606l60 62l0l6517l27l27l0l16l16l1l280l1930l1.4.5l10l0&has_verified=1)

LightRey
12-05-2011, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by ZCherub:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
The only kind of challenges I like to see in AC are challenges involving strategy and thinking of creative solutions to problems. I want the challenge to be in figuring out a route through an enemy camp without being spotted, or what (kind of) weapon to use in what (kind of) situation.

I don't feel the need for there to be challenging combat. I want myself and other players to have the freedom to just hack 'n slash our way through.

I would like more strategy when navigating around guards as well - I.e. More stealth. The problem is, you CAN simply hack & slash, so there's no need. The penalty is desynchronization on certain missions, which I get. In free roam, though, the penalty for getting spotted by a dozen highly trained & heavily armored guards should be - you guessed it, overwhelming beat down...

There is zero motivation for stealth in these games anymore because you are so godlike in your combat ability. It's fun, but there should be some additional challenge when fighting 12+ guards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Penalties are for people that aren't imaginative. I want to be able to hack 'n slash through a huge mob of guards if I feel like it. I just want enough freedom to be able to figure out a way to completely avoid that too.

ProdiGurl
12-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by luckyto:
I'm sure it differs from person to person. ACB was the only game in the AC franchising that had elements where were outright frustrating. ACR has some annoying elements (targeting), but nothing that will make you throw a controller across the room.

Oh I know it, I so agree. Alot less in ACR.

In ACB I'm almost shocked that I didn't break anything. Those Romulus Lairs got to me too. IF ONLY we had the Hookblade in those Lairs - anything.

Ok, so Targeting is what you find to be an annoyance. That's fair - but I do really like the Eagle Sense. I like seeing the Guard trails to know their patterns.

luckyto
12-05-2011, 03:54 PM
I love the new Eagle Sense. I don't like it on L3, but I love the new abilities.

luckyto
12-05-2011, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
Penalties are for people that aren't imaginative. I want to be able to hack 'n slash through a huge mob of guards if I feel like it. I just want enough freedom to be able to figure out a way to completely avoid that too.

Wow, shock, I agree with you. Very well said. That's the textbook definition of "open world" game.

ProdiGurl
12-05-2011, 03:59 PM
There is zero motivation for stealth in these games anymore because you are so godlike in your combat ability. It's fun, but there should be some additional challenge when fighting 12+ guards.

What exactly are you looking for in motivation?
I think most of us do like a challenge, so we do prefer to use stealth alot of times.
I know I do even tho sometimes I do want to just let loose and take them out w/ one of my weapons.

What Motivation would you suggest that would be fun and not a frustrating annoyance?

Serrachio
12-05-2011, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by luckyto:
I love the new Eagle Sense. I don't like it on L3, but I love the new abilities.

Yeah. I feel that the whole "secondary weapon" wheel was rather unnecessary and it made selecting what you wanted a hassle.

It wasn't so bad in Brotherhood because you had the double takedowns, provided you used the combo functions assigned to the Sword and Pistol, and the Dagger and Throwing Knives.

To build on what I previously mentioned, I'd figure it'd be nicely balanced if they removed the Pistol and Crossbow, but merged them into the Hidden Bolt (mentioned in Project Legacy). It'd still allow players to shoot guards, but it would be merging the Pistol's functionality with the Crossbow's silent takedowns.

It'd also keep the ability for Poison Darts, though I'd figure it'd be more stealthy to have it as Tranquilizer Darts instead. You could put a guard to sleep and slip past, but another guard could still come along and wake the sleeping guard up, so there's the element of timing to take into consideration.

LightRey
12-05-2011, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by luckyto:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LightRey:
Penalties are for people that aren't imaginative. I want to be able to hack 'n slash through a huge mob of guards if I feel like it. I just want enough freedom to be able to figure out a way to completely avoid that too.

Wow, shock, I agree with you. Very well said. That's the textbook definition of "open world" game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Had to happen one day. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SolidSage
12-05-2011, 04:23 PM
@Serrachio
While I see your point about not wanting all the gizmos, the one point of contention that I have with it, is that, even though there are a couple of missions requiring them, for the most part, you don't have to use any of it. You can completely forget bout the bombs, crossbow, poison darts, pistol, heavy weapons, etc etc.
A lot of the time, I throw my heavy weapon away so I can go minimal with just the dagger. Looks a bit more minimal too.

I am FOR a wide variety of weapons and options to play. Creed allows for many different approachs and that is key to replay value for me. Get bored of one play style, try another.

Less limitation and restriction, more choice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Serrachio
12-05-2011, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by SolidSage:
@Serrachio
While I see your point about not wanting all the gizmos, the one point of contention that I have with it, is that, even though there are a couple of missions requiring them, for the most part, you don't have to use any of it. You can completely forget bout the bombs, crossbow, poison darts, pistol, heavy weapons, etc etc.
A lot of the time, I throw my heavy weapon away so I can go minimal with just the dagger. Looks a bit more minimal too.

I am FOR a wide variety of weapons and options to play. Creed allows for many different approachs and that is key to replay value for me. Get bored of one play style, try another.

Less limitation and restriction, more choice. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

While that may be true, if there really is no real need to use them, it seems a little silly to pile them in and treat them like they're oh so special.

I'd like to use them, but I don't want it to be "Just this once..." I'd actually like to go about a situation from a certain perspective, but do I really need the choice to kill a rooftop guard close and personal or rifle through my bags so I can kill him with Knives, a Gun, a Crossbow or an Explosive Bomb?

It's not that I'm restricted, but why do I need so much choice?

ProdiGurl
12-05-2011, 04:55 PM
I honestly use most of the weapons. AC combat/missions just aren't as easy to me as some of you, so I rely on different ones to compensate sometimes.
The bombs have become my new best friend. Sure they need tweaking but they're innovative & fun.

I think people use quite a few of them. The only one I don't use much is the poison on the secondary weapon wheel.
What I really don't use is the parachute.

Serrachio
12-05-2011, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by ProdiGurl:
I honestly use most of the weapons. AC combat/missions just aren't as easy to me as some of you, so I rely on different ones to compensate sometimes.
The bombs have become my new best friend. Sure they need tweaking but they're innovative & fun.

I think people use quite a bit of them. The only one I don't use much is the poison on the secondary weapon wheel.

Would you say that you would regularly use the Crossbow however?

I don't. What I kinda don't get is that my Apprentice can take out a Janissary with one shot, and yet it takes me three and they become aggro at me.

SolidSage
12-05-2011, 05:02 PM
@Serrachio
For fun, and variety. The projectiles are interchangeable, i think knives are the best but a bit underpowered.

Regardless of my preference though, it allows for both you and i and everyone else to have our own preferences catered to. All the choice isn't for you or the individual specifically, it's for the multitude of individuals.

You can go through the game without upgrading armor or buying the weapons, that crossbow can be left at the blacksmiths and never touched, as you know. Same with the chutes, cept for that Sofia mission. I actually use them all the time now, never bothered in ACB but now it's a faster way to travel when collecting....and fun.

Yeah, I don't think it's about loading up Ezio like a tank, but more about picking the equipment YOU like and forget the rest. Bombs are more and more fun though, and fast like knives if you lock on.

ProdiGurl
12-05-2011, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Serrachio:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ProdiGurl:
I honestly use most of the weapons. AC combat/missions just aren't as easy to me as some of you, so I rely on different ones to compensate sometimes.
The bombs have become my new best friend. Sure they need tweaking but they're innovative & fun.

I think people use quite a bit of them. The only one I don't use much is the poison on the secondary weapon wheel.

Would you say that you would regularly use the Crossbow however?

I don't. What I kinda don't get is that my Apprentice can take out a Janissary with one shot, and yet it takes me three and they become aggro at me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outside of close hand to hand combat w/ guards where I use a dagger or sword/mace, the crossbow is my primary weapon during missions. Yes.

Speaking of the apprentice thing, I just did a mission where I go to Suleyman (*sp), & I did 1 signal for my assassins for a couple Janissaries in my way . . .
they were losing so badly, I had to signal the rest of the assassins to come aid them.
Their white bars were all the way to black & one of them said, they are too much for me.
lol

So . . depending on how many of them... I saw them having problems w/ Janissaries also in the Thief assignment where they were stationed in that red zone area w/ the target.

Usually they do an air assassination & it's easier - but hand to hand combat that doesn't seem to always be the case in my 2nd replay of ACR.

Serrachio
12-05-2011, 05:08 PM
Well I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I want there to be more implementation of things to do with weapons, instead of making lots and lots.

If you could imagine having back those Throwing Knife elements in the Secret Locations in Brotherhood, I would be happy.

SolidSage
12-05-2011, 05:22 PM
I hear you there Serrachio, specific instances that make the piece of equipment's existence valid.
I think those 'reasons' have been present in the game that the equipment debuted in but then don't continue in the next game. So crossbow in ACB (or was it 2?) had validity but now there is none in ACR. I'm cool with it though and happy they leave them in. I mean, they are basically like stat adjustments, the crossbow is similar to knives and gun but power is different along with aiming time in regards to accuracy and reload etc.

I've been using the poison darts in close combat with Jannisaries, they aint so bad with a quick fire poison!

I feel the same about outfits/skins, if it was in any of the precious games it should be in the new one too. So by my count, ACR should be showing some Brutus and Altair etc, etc, as a standard, not some special pre order bonus, that kind of ticks me off. Save the bonuses for MP skins or a lair if you must.

ace3001
12-05-2011, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by LightRey:
The only kind of challenges I like to see in AC are challenges involving strategy and thinking of creative solutions to problems. I want the challenge to be in figuring out a route through an enemy camp without being spotted, or what (kind of) weapon to use in what (kind of) situation.

I don't feel the need for there to be challenging combat. I want myself and other players to have the freedom to just hack 'n slash our way through. Spot on.

Animuses
12-05-2011, 07:56 PM
A slip of the finger and the recruits come and steal your kills... definitely not annoying.
You killed your target, but you didn't kill him right... freedom where did you go?

The least annoying thing about ACB and ACR are the excellent new archetypes. The gunmen, crossbowmen, and horsemen definitely do not have annoying written all over them.

What's laughable was the rope climbing, the horse carriages, the sliding, and the parachuting.

xCr0wnedNorris
12-05-2011, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by ZCherub:
I would like more strategy when navigating around guards as well - I.e. More stealth. The problem is, you CAN simply hack & slash, so there's no need. The penalty is desynchronization on certain missions, which I get. In free roam, though, the penalty for getting spotted by a dozen highly trained & heavily armored guards should be - you guessed it, overwhelming beat down...

There is zero motivation for stealth in these games anymore because you are so godlike in your combat ability. It's fun, but there should be some additional challenge when fighting 12+ guards.
Just because there's no need for something doesn't mean it should never be done. Ever hear of WANTING to do something? A crazy concept I know. If you WANT to play stealthy, just play stealthy. If you constantly find yourself going back to playing aggressively, then stealth probably isn't that important to you to begin with.

ProdiGurl
12-06-2011, 08:54 AM
I found another example in a feedback thread -
they wrote that Templar Awareness (aka notoriety) is annoying & to get rid of it.
But here again, it's notoriety that helps make AC more challenging.
It shouldn't all be a cakewalk without any consequences or setbacks.

How is Ubi supposed to keep us busy with things (extending the game) & challenging us while not making things "annoying"?

To me, den defense wasn't annoying at all, what frustrated me was the delivery of it - it was confusing & too hard to take out that tank thing at the end.
But the concept was acceptable - that would be something the Templars would do in reality.

But they could have made it just that Templars were coming after you & your Assassins, & put you into a harder combat scenario to take the den over.
Ubi could take away all your medicine & throw you into harder combat - if you lost, you lost the den.
People may have liked a system like that instead?