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View Full Version : Flat Spins, a pilots worst nightmare? Or a great AC tactic?



rebelpacket
08-26-2006, 01:28 AM
Hey Folks,

I'm -STILL- practicing IL2:FB in singleplayer versus AI. Havn't gotten online for fear of completely getting thrashed and frustrated. Anyways...

I recently found the "trick" to recovering from flat-spins in my plane of choice, the ME109F2. (I know its not the best, but its what I'm best in. The K2 feels completely differnt, as it should). However, in a pretty intense fight with a AI Veteran Hurricane, I had tried a couple quick turns, and even tried some scissors (which I'm absolutely horrible at) trying to shake him. Finally, I said "screw it" I dipped down for some airspeed, throttled back, pulled up vertical (with the Hurricane right behind me, tipped my 109 to the left, and jacked the elevators to max up, throwing me into a flat spin.

The hurricane dived down,and tried to get guns on me, but flew right past me. I immediately did my magic voodoo (which I'll explain later if people want to hear) and pulled out of the spin, and *presto*, I was right on his tail. After some maunevering, I positioned myself for a close range deflection shot, and pummeled his canopy. Goodnight.

I've got it all on a track, if people are interested in seeing it. But it got me thinking, if I can control the flat spin and recover, how good is it as a tool to shake a bandit? I tried it again with a Hurri on my six, and it worked like magic. Anyone else do this?

Also, how the bloody heck do the AI bots (or you all for that matter) turn so quick? I'm still doing what seems like these lazy large arc turns, which leave me wide open for fighters to dip in behind me. I've tried throttling back, and dropping combat flaps, but I still turn like a balooga whale in comparison.

And I'm still using a sidewinder. I know, I know. But its all I've got for now.

WWMaxGunz
08-26-2006, 01:41 AM
Be sure worst nightmare is stuck in plane on fire.

Tully__
08-26-2006, 01:47 AM
A flat spin may work well against AI but will rapidly get you killed against any half competent human pilot.

For turns the Me109 suffers from heavy controls at high speed. This game treats joysticks a little different than you might expect. It doesn't control the aircraft control position, it controls the amount of force applied to the control by the pilot (peaking at about 50lbs force). If the aircraft is going fast enough that 50lbs force is not enough to fully deflect the controls you can't turn as tight as the aircraft potentially can. The AI may not be subject to this limitation, as they also seem not to be subject to blackouts, engine overheat and a couple of other things us mere humans have to deal with.
You can help yourself along a bit by adding a little nose up trim. This means you have to hold the stick slightly deflected forward to fly level at high speed but helps get better turn performance in turns at those speeds (trim adds to pilot force in the direction of trim, subtracts from pilot force in the opposite direction).

rebelpacket
08-26-2006, 02:10 AM
Thanks for the trim tip. Knowing that there is a 50lb limitation, trimming for positive elevation definitly sounds like a quick way to "cheat" the limitation.

As far as flat-spins, I guess I'll have to join up to a game online sometime and see how the other pilots react to it. I can enter and exit one fairly quickly now with practice. I figured with such a spin (which you can widen by using your flaps) it'd be hard to hit with guns in a dive. But I suppose at level deflection, you can just spray pretty easily.

I tried quite a bit of things to shake the AI fighter, and none of it worked. It was a nerve-wracking 15 minutes of combat trying to get away from him. Short of scissors, focke-wulf stomps, alternating short loops, what are some proven ways to get a attacker in front of you?

BiscuitKnight
08-26-2006, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by rebelpacket:
Thanks for the trim tip. Knowing that there is a 50lb limitation, trimming for positive elevation definitly sounds like a quick way to "cheat" the limitation.

As far as flat-spins, I guess I'll have to join up to a game online sometime and see how the other pilots react to it. I can enter and exit one fairly quickly now with practice. I figured with such a spin (which you can widen by using your flaps) it'd be hard to hit with guns in a dive. But I suppose at level deflection, you can just spray pretty easily.

I tried quite a bit of things to shake the AI fighter, and none of it worked. It was a nerve-wracking 15 minutes of combat trying to get away from him. Short of scissors, focke-wulf stomps, alternating short loops, what are some proven ways to get a attacker in front of you?

Generally I don't get stuck with enemy on my tail. When I do, it's over in about three seconds: either I catch fire, or he breaks off without killing me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When you spin, doesn't that bleed off all your airspeed?

FritzGryphon
08-26-2006, 03:27 AM
If you are fighting Hurricanes in a 109F, it would be very foolish to do spins, or even turn fighting of any kind.

Run away from, or climb above them. You gain nothing by throwing away altitude, and giving the enemy a sitting duck to shoot at.

Spins are an act of desperation by those who have handed the initiative and advantage over to the enemy. There is always a better choice.

I suppose newer players (myself included) like to do it because it's easy, and it sometimes gives you a momentary respite. But you always end up worse off. If you must try a Tom Cruise overshoot manuever, try a barrel roll or scissors.

Really though, if you are in a situation where you -need- to force an overshoot, you have already lost. Just learn from the experience and do better next time.

Badsight-
08-26-2006, 04:24 AM
Sabouro Saki got bounced & hit by Hellcats in his Zero , he put the plane into a 3000m flat-spin & pulled it out when he hit some clouds

saved his life

F6_Ace
08-26-2006, 04:35 AM
It used to be the case that getting into a spin in certain aircraft meant death as recovery was practically impossible.

With post 4.04 'noob-assist' modelling, however, you can recover from any spin just by letting go of the stick.

It's a valid stall (pardon the pun) tactic to force an attacker to miss his shot and is especially useful in gaining an extra couple of seconds for your pals to turn up.

Xiolablu3
08-26-2006, 04:42 AM
Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
If you are fighting Hurricanes in a 109F, it would be very foolish to do spins, or even turn fighting of any kind.

Run away from, or climb above them. You gain nothing by throwing away altitude, and giving the enemy a sitting duck to shoot at.

.

Like Fritz says, why bother taking the risk of getting into a turnfight.

You have a far more powerful plane, you have no ned to get into turnfights at all.

Hit them and zoom back up high. You should be able to pick them off one by one as they havent really a hope of catching you unless you make a mistake.

Remember that if yuo get shot down in the faster,better climbing plane that it is usually YOU who has made the mistake. You have the option to disengage at any time if the odds are not in your favour. Use this ability http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BaronUnderpants
08-26-2006, 04:44 AM
In my experiance, pulling up verticly with a bandit on your 6 (online) is the best and fastest way of exposing your intire ac to a well placed burst that will end the fight instantly.

Unless you are talking about being bounced, where the enemy closes in on u at much higher speed in say a Bf109....as someone said, 109 has very stiff controles in high speed and if u wait untill the very last microsecond he wont be able to follow u. But 9/10 of the time u will present your selfe as a very easy and big target.

If the enemy are behind u at the same speed and very close putting yourselfe in a flatspin will often result in a ram, getting pepperered by your enemys friends and so on.

Personally i never ever do vertical manouvers with a enemy on my 6 ( closer then 600 m. )....the very few times iv lost my nerve and tried it, it allways ended up the same way.

Xiolablu3
08-26-2006, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
It used to be the case that getting into a spin in certain aircraft meant death as recovery was practically impossible.

With post 4.04 'noob-assist' modelling, however, you can recover from any spin just by letting go of the stick.


Dont you just love the classyness of Norris's posts?

Whatever the subject, whatever the time of day, he always manages to get a swipe at the game or developers in without fail. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You have to admire such dedication.

F6_Ace
08-26-2006, 04:55 AM
It's a nice offset to the 'undying devotion' (where anything good is brought about by 1C and anything bad is UBISoft's fault) exhibited by others http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Also, if you were flying pre-4.04, X, you'd know what I meant with regards to easy spin recovery so may I suggest you go back to early FB/Il-2, and put a P39 or I16 into a spin and see what happens http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you've done that, you can come back and apologise http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Xiolablu3
08-26-2006, 05:01 AM
I was only joking, I hope you know that, but I DO see it a lot.

Sometimes I just wonder 'WHy does he bother playing this game?'

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

F6_Ace
08-26-2006, 07:35 AM
Seriously, try pre-4.04, as I don't think you were playing the game then, and just look at the spins especially in the P39/I16.

Whether the FM is better or worse now is debatable but it's definately *easier* to recover from spins even in those aircraft that were notoriously dangerous in that department.

This is one of the 'minor but numerous' reasons why I *don't* play the game so often as I did.

Badsight-
08-26-2006, 05:59 PM
i still fly FB v4.0 beta06 offline

its (the FM) what FB should have become post v4.0

NonWonderDog
08-26-2006, 07:01 PM
In most civilian AC, the most effective way to recover from a spin is to let go. I've talked to one old-timer and heard of another who were caught in unintended spins and tried as hard as they could to counter them (using "correct" methods). At ~1500 feet each of them thought he was about to die, let go of the controls, covered his eyes, and prayed. When he opened his eyes again, the plane was climbing steeply. I imagine that most every pilot has heard this kind of story before.

I have no idea if the same holds in any random warbird. Many planes were known for being hard to recover from spins, and most warbirds were at least somewhat unstable by design. The basics of aerodynamics, however, are the same for everything, and all manually-controlled aircraft have positive stability.

leitmotiv
08-26-2006, 07:56 PM
The one Oleg model which I could not get out of a flat spin was the game's Beaufighter. I tried every trick in the book and was stunned to find none worked. I haven't used it recently and I don't know if this still stands. The other one which gave me fits was the Go 229, which is one of my pets. Finally I used the airbrake, full flaps, and down landing gear, and that did it. Again, I don't know if it is still so resistant. What rebelpacket described in his first post is one of the oldest real WWII-era fighter pilot tricks. If you have it really nailed down properly, you may be able to use it in a tight spot.

orkan_3d
08-26-2006, 08:45 PM
rebelpacket, how do you recover from a spin?

PBNA-Boosher
08-26-2006, 11:58 PM
Bah, I have 4.22 beta! I fly Su-17's in circles round your lousy P-51's! I even got track, be sure!

rebelpacket
08-27-2006, 01:02 AM
Where is the FB upgrade for 4.03?

I'm running version 1.22 of FB, and 4.03 for Pacific Fighters. I got IL2:FB and Pacific Fighters from direct2drive.com (download rather than actual media). To the best of my knowledge, I can't merge the two.

And the flat spins most defintly do NOT self-recover if you just let go of the stick.

CAF96th_Sillyak
08-27-2006, 01:26 AM
flat spins cause you to lose altitude without giving you speed, therefore causeing you to lose E at a high rate.

rebelpacket
08-27-2006, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by orkan_3d:
rebelpacket, how do you recover from a spin?

If I'm spinning right, I go full throttle, landing flaps, and full rudder + airelon to the LEFT. If I'm spinning left, I go 0 throttle, full landing flaps, full rudder and airelon to the RIGHT.

Works every time. You'll see the spin start to widen, and before you know it, your diving in a roll.

How are you guys running Forgotten Battles version 4.22+? I'm still using version 1.22. As I said in a previous post, I got IL2:FB from Direct2Drive.com, rather than actually buying the media. I dont think I can merge the two, and the latest version I can find for Forgotten Battles standalone is 1.22. Do they not put patches out for the stand-alone anymore?

ColoradoBBQ
08-27-2006, 01:46 AM
1.22 is the last patch for FB. You have to have the Aces Expansion Pack and Pacific Fighters installed on FB to get up to 4.04m.

BiscuitKnight
08-27-2006, 02:03 AM
And the only place I could find Ace Expansion Pack these days was with the Boonty Box. And it didn't work properly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

rebelpacket
08-27-2006, 02:04 AM
Does anyone know a good place to get all three without getting raked over the coals? I see a "complete" collection on DVD for sale on eBay, but buying software over eBay is something I've never done...

Sucks... great game, but you cant find it anywhere anymore!

ColoradoBBQ
08-27-2006, 02:06 AM
GoGamer.com has the complete edition of FB, AEP, and PF on DVD. (Its on the third page under Simulation->Flight)

VF51_Flatspin
08-27-2006, 07:02 PM
I am neither your worst nightmare nor a great tactic. Not sure about the "other" flatspins' opinions of themselves.

Ernst_Rohr
08-28-2006, 08:25 AM
I am neither your worst nightmare nor a great tactic. Not sure about the "other" flatspins' opinions of themselves.

Yes, but the other Flatspins are recoverable! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

rebelpacket
08-28-2006, 02:41 PM
Finally got online and flew. Man, I dont know why I waited so long. Couple of really green pilots, and a couple of really good ones. A bunch of "so-so"'s thrown in.

Flat spin trick worked against human pilots pretty well actually. Only times I got shot down we're really great high-deflection shots that usually toasted my motor, or killed the pilot outright.

MrMojok
08-28-2006, 02:48 PM
If it's new in box, I'd have no qualms buying it over E-bay. They will usually state if it's new in box, and sealed.

wayno7777
08-28-2006, 09:58 PM
Good for wing-walking....