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CHDT
11-04-2005, 01:53 PM
Hi all,

I've no problem with the FM of the latest patch, but when firing, the flightline of the aircraft is so much deviated, that it's now impossible to get a precise aiming!

Is it normal or not?

Because in external views, it looks wrong: when firing, the tail of the aircraft moves like a one-legged running duck (even with the ball perfectly in the middle)!

VW-IceFire
11-04-2005, 05:14 PM
I don't think its right but I don't have the proper aeronautical and physics PHD credientials to make any sorts of assertions about such a thing.

There is definately a fair amount of sway from most aircraft when firing. I know guns gave kick but how much I don't know.

We did recently hear from a Mustang pilot that there was almost no sway when firing (even with a gun jammed) but that the plane did loose airspeed.

The-Pizza-Man
11-04-2005, 06:59 PM
Conversly I've always read that whenever one of the cannons on the mkIB spits jammed, it would cause the plane to yaw quite alarmingly whenever the remaining cannon was fired.

CHDT
11-05-2005, 01:55 AM
That's true when the "firing solution" is asymetric, but I think, wrong, in normal conditions.

I've seen many times aircraft firing live at Axalp and I NEVER saw any tail moving during firing.

To say the truth, as it is now, it's unplayable, especially for long bursts with deflection.

CHDT
11-05-2005, 01:59 AM
Btw, could it be possible that this problem (if it a problem) is caused by some kind of "left guns/right guns" desynchronization of the weapons? I have an unclear rememberance about something about that?

CHDT
11-05-2005, 02:01 AM
How stupid I am? One of my friends has been for years a test engineer at Oerlikon, especially for aircraft armament, He will know for sure, if it's right or wrong!

p1ngu666
11-05-2005, 07:09 AM
CHDT, the guns may fire slightly different times, hence u make wobble about. the il2 does that...

Bremspropeller
11-05-2005, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
Conversly I've always read that whenever one of the cannons on the mkIB spits jammed, it would cause the plane to yaw quite alarmingly whenever the remaining cannon was fired.


That's because a 20mm cannon has somewhat more recoil than a .50 MG.
Also the loss of one out of six guns won't put the asymmetric force up to the level of losing 50% of your firepower (...coming back to the Hispano vs. Browning comparison in terms of recoil).

VW-IceFire
11-05-2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
Conversly I've always read that whenever one of the cannons on the mkIB spits jammed, it would cause the plane to yaw quite alarmingly whenever the remaining cannon was fired.
True for any Spitfire and probably true for any similarly sized and weighted fighter with cannons on the outboard. Not quite as true for HMG's or LMG's.

I think the effect is sometimes overstated...but still realistic...just perhaps overdone. They are consumer level CPU's anyways http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

carguy_
11-05-2005, 01:19 PM
Anyobdy tested Yak9K recoil?It`s very optimistically modelled.

Interviewed Russian pilot said the Yak would almost stop in the air when firing the 45mm.

Professor_06
11-05-2005, 01:21 PM
Welly;

I believe my eyes. When I look at actual Guncam footage of Allied planes firing all six 50s, I dont see any swaying/wobbling at all. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Nyet. Nein..(sp)

What the poster is stating is that phenom of the allied super wobble extending into the firing recoil dynamics. Alot of what I experience is the exagerated inertial sway and super PIO of the allied and some axis fighters. It does make it very difficult to get a proper firiing solution in the game.

You dont need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows and you dont need a Phd to understand the the Wobbly affect is not a historically accurate reflection of the flight and/or firing dynamics of these planes. I am sure the developers will fix this problem....eventually.

CHDT
11-05-2005, 01:27 PM
No, there is a BIG difference from the last patch!

Before, they were what can be called normal vibrations when firing, now when I fire, the nose of the aircraft makes big "eights"! It's now simply impossible to make a long precise burst, what is essential for deflection shooting.

It's now also impossible to aim precisely for a point and to make the bullets hit this point precisely, because the nose of the aircraft is just spraying the bullets.

Not very intersting and probably not very realistic.

CHDT
11-05-2005, 01:34 PM
Professor, you're right. I saw for instance during military service many De Havilland Vampires (a WWII design, quite similar in fact to the late war aircrafts of PF) firing against ground targets during low passes and I never saw the flightlines of these aircrafts change or oscillate during firing. To say the truth, during firing, the aircrafts were totally stable.

To me, it looks like the weapons of the PF aircrafts have been slightly desynchronized from one wing to the other wing and this way, the recoil produces a much exagerated asymetric effect.

HelSqnProtos
11-05-2005, 01:44 PM
S~!

Bump, this is indeed an ingame problem. Can we get it looked at please.

CHDT
11-05-2005, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
CHDT, the guns may fire slightly different times, hence u make wobble about. the il2 does that...

But it has drastically and suddenly changed from the last patch. So what was realistic for four years has suddenly become unrealistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Frankly, it's now almost impossible to make deflection shots from long distance, because the aircrafts oscillate so much during firing.

CHDT
11-05-2005, 02:20 PM
Btw, I just took a look at a color video showing P-47 during WWII. In the middle of the vid, there's a short sequence in which a P-47 is seen from the front when firing: the aircraft is perfectly stable!

VFA-25_Peckens
11-05-2005, 04:09 PM
which planes in particular are guys talking about? i havent had much flight time with the new patch

WWMaxGunz
11-05-2005, 10:55 PM
Could this be due to the inherent super-parallelism of reality versus the serialism of
PC code trying to do every little part in brute order and not quite keeping up? IE,
maybe there's some things better modelled through averaging shortcuts?

OTOH, from in-house models, Maddox Games comes up with heavy vibration and shot deflection
when wing guns are involved which IIRC only seems to have made it into planes starting
from AEP 1.0 but maybe some of the older ones got updated when other changes were also
carried backwards down the lineup.

The figure 8's are probably from modelled gyro effects... I'd rather see the gyro kept
in please.

ElAurens
11-06-2005, 01:45 AM
Has anyone emailed this to Oleg/Maddox Games through the proper channels?

With tracks and verifiable historical documentation?

That is what it will take to fix it.

ECV56_Rolf
11-09-2005, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by Professor_06:
Welly;

I believe my eyes. When I look at actual Guncam footage of Allied planes firing all six 50s, I dont see any swaying/wobbling at all. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Nyet. Nein..(sp)
.

If you look carefully at guncams, from every side on WWII, you will see that all tracers give something very different to what we have in game. They seem to be ZigZgging all the time to their target, instead of going like a little shooting star to the target.

That is the camera oscillating from firing the guns. The effect we see now I think is too strong. But to say there is no trembling when firing is a bigger asumption.

Anyway, looking to the whole model change, I don´t think that this is because of the tremble introduced by firing alone. When you enter a near Stall, and you try to recover it with a P47, or the worst case, the TA152, you will get your tail oscilating a bit too much.

I wonder if it is not this FM implementation that's causing this annoyance.

WWMaxGunz
11-09-2005, 01:27 PM
Rolf, people say that is because the camera is vibrating on rubber mounts. I dunno since
the target doesn't wobble as well, IIRC.

Chadburn
11-09-2005, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


The figure 8's are probably from modelled gyro effects... I'd rather see the gyro kept
in please.

If they are, Max, then the "Difficulty" settings are broken. I tried turning off Gyro and Torque effects, Buffeting, Wind and Turbulence all in Difficulty settings, but the oscillating swing in the planes is still there.

It is obviously in the FM at some level that is not affected by the difficult settings

Professor_06
11-09-2005, 04:55 PM
You might want to try to change Joysticks. I get my most stable plane when "not" using MSFF twisty or Stk X45-52. zero input on Yaw joystick setting for the first 4 columns. I use a simple cyborg with rudder peds. Not perfect but livable. I have the P47 from Shockwave for MSFS2004. (120megs). Guess what? no PIO or wobble.

italianofalco
11-09-2005, 05:51 PM
8888888, spraying..and praying... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif .Yes THIS IS DEFINITELY a BAD BUG!Game is unplayable!! -BUMP IT!!
- FALCO

GR142_Astro
11-10-2005, 12:36 AM
Sometimes I would swear my gunsight is magnetically repulsed by the enemy a/c. Just when you should be lining up your whole a/c simply shifts off to the side.

Very frustrating aspect of this game at the moment. I still maintain that some a/c such as the F4U, P47 and P51 feel like they are flying around with the combat flaps constantly deployed. Jam the flaps on your favorite ride and then try to have accurate gunnery.

ECV56_Rolf
11-10-2005, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Rolf, people say that is because the camera is vibrating on rubber mounts. I dunno since
the target doesn't wobble as well, IIRC.

There is a fine guncam video whose title is "OHKA G4M Interception", that clearly shows that the mountings have nothing to do with the camera oscillations. You could clearly see well focused images when the plane is not firing, and a fully trembling plane when it is firing.

The mountings may maximize the effect, but the trembling is still there.

Now, I do agree that different planes suffer this effect in a different way.

But it surely have something to do with your flight atitude. I tried to fire without any joy input, and there is almost no trembling. The effect is the worst if you fire while under YAW effect. Too much elevator also produce the same results.

Heavier aircraft doesn´t seem to be afected, like the Beaufighter and the P38, or at least to a lower level.

CHDT
11-14-2005, 01:55 PM
I MUST update my comment.

Until this patch, I've always used without problems the standard joystick settings with some personal tweakings directly in the PF setup.

So, with the latest patch, I got big trouble of instability during firing.

I don't know why, I tried yesterday the Il2Sticks utility and I loaded the Crazyivan settings. Big surprise, no more problems of instability during firing and the best joystick input for the past four years.


I don't know what happened, but for people with joystick trouble with this patch, try Il2Sticks, before whining like me :-)))

Because, I must say, I love the newest FM's now, with my joystick tweaked by Il2Sticks!

So, Maddox team,forget this topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hobnail
11-14-2005, 02:31 PM
Flying the Hellcat can be very frustrating with the deviation on firing. I was getting so miffed by it that I mapped the fire button to the throttle to rule out that I was "snatching at the trigger" just like you're told not to do by the shooting instructor. Still get that feeling, as said before, of the nose describing a figure 8 on firing.

fighter_966
12-01-2005, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by CHDT:
I MUST update my comment.

Until this patch, I've always used without problems the standard joystick settings with some personal tweakings directly in the PF setup.

So, with the latest patch, I got big trouble of instability during firing.

I don't know why, I tried yesterday the Il2Sticks utility and I loaded the Crazyivan settings. Big surprise, no more problems of instability during firing and the best joystick input for the past four years.


I don't know what happened, but for people with joystick trouble with this patch, try Il2Sticks, before whining like me :-)))

Because, I must say, I love the newest FM's now, with my joystick tweaked by Il2Sticks!

So, Maddox team,forget this topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Atleast I noticed that when I start shooting enemy plane wobble starts .In ordinary fligth
there is not so much wobbble ..so only bug I
have noticed is ME I squeese the bloody joystick
everytime I press trigger....

womenfly
12-01-2005, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by fighter_966:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CHDT:

So, with the latest patch, I got big trouble of instability during firing.

I don't know why, I tried yesterday the Il2Sticks utility and I loaded the Crazyivan settings. Big surprise, no more problems of instability during firing and the best joystick input for the past four years...

<span class="ev_code_PINK">Thanks .... could you post the settings or link to them, would love to try it.</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

hobnail
12-01-2005, 02:19 PM
http://airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#087

DaimonSyrius
12-01-2005, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by womenfly:
<span class="ev_code_PINK">Thanks .... could you post the settings or link to them, would love to try it.</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Find here Fooltrottel's IL2-Sticks (http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/FB/fb_essential_files.htm#087). It's a very simple install and most useful for easily trying different joystick setups. It includes a few ready-made joystick profiles that can just be selected and applied to config.ini. CrazyIvan's settings are:

rudder=7 29 40 48 57 66 76 86 93 95 100 0
elevator=0 28 44 55 62 70 79 88 93 96 100 0
aileron=0 27 38 52 63 69 75 83 88 93 100 0


IMO, the more complex factors introduced in the FM in recent 4.0x patches make the custom adjustment of joystick settings a necessity. More and more, each user must try and find what suits better the particular joystick, flying style, and even the aircraft type. This can be done by typing the numbers in config.ini, but a tool like IL2-Sticks allows to store different profiles, and easily switch or modify them.

Cheers,
S.

ColoradoBBQ
12-01-2005, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Sometimes I would swear my gunsight is magnetically repulsed by the enemy a/c. Just when you should be lining up your whole a/c simply shifts off to the side.

Very frustrating aspect of this game at the moment. I still maintain that some a/c such as the F4U, P47 and P51 feel like they are flying around with the combat flaps constantly deployed. Jam the flaps on your favorite ride and then try to have accurate gunnery.

When your plane is changing speed, your yaw changes so you must compensate for this.

Copperhead310th
12-02-2005, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
Conversly I've always read that whenever one of the cannons on the mkIB spits jammed, it would cause the plane to yaw quite alarmingly whenever the remaining cannon was fired.


That's because a 20mm cannon has somewhat more recoil than a .50 MG.
Also the loss of one out of six guns won't put the asymmetric force up to the level of losing 50% of your firepower (...coming back to the Hispano vs. Browning comparison in terms of recoil). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"<span class="ev_code_RED">That's because a 20mm cannon has somewhat more recoil than a .50 MG.</span>"

Man you have absolutley NO gunnery time in a
P-47 do you? P-47 is as bad as 20mm cannons in stablity. And i have seen them as bad as firing Mk-108's. The Jug just yaws like crazy.

Grey_Mouser67
12-02-2005, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Sometimes I would swear my gunsight is magnetically repulsed by the enemy a/c. Just when you should be lining up your whole a/c simply shifts off to the side.

Very frustrating aspect of this game at the moment. I still maintain that some a/c such as the F4U, P47 and P51 feel like they are flying around with the combat flaps constantly deployed. Jam the flaps on your favorite ride and then try to have accurate gunnery.

Agreed 100%

Other night I was flying P-51 and caught enemy aircraft in vertical chasing another aircraft...you know the kind where he just hangs in the air like a balloon right in front of you.

I started firing as I'm pulling to him and those yaw oscillations start in and I don't know that I hit him at all...it was as if the pipper was doing a big circle around the enemy aircraft...I might have hit him with a couple of rounds...had I been flying a Fw, 109 or La that guy would have been instant toast...extra crispy.

Corsair is worst no doubt...spitfire yanks back and forth while firing and the jug and mustang are horrible...stable gun platform?

luftluuver
12-03-2005, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Man you have absolutley NO gunnery time in a
P-47 do you? P-47 is as bad as 20mm cannons in stablity. And i have seen them as bad as firing Mk-108's. The Jug just yaws like crazy.

So, 1 20mm is equal to 4 .50s.

polak5
12-03-2005, 03:43 AM
Originally posted by CHDT:
How stupid I am? One of my friends has been for years a test engineer at Oerlikon, especially for aircraft armament, He will know for sure, if it's right or wrong!

U ask ur friend yet, im curious to know what his opinion on the matter is.

darkhorizon11
12-08-2005, 09:45 PM
You don't need a physics degree to get it. Its just balance, torque is arm times force. If they fire at the same time on each wing the force is equal. However unless you're perfectly co-ordinated when firing the cannon you'll definitely yaw like a mutha.

luftluuver
12-08-2005, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
You don't need a physics degree to get it. Its just balance, torque is arm times force. If they fire at the same time on each wing the force is equal. However unless you're perfectly co-ordinated when firing the cannon you'll definitely yaw like a mutha.
How much yaw are you going to get when they are firing at a small fraction of a second apart?

Tator_Totts
12-09-2005, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
You don't need a physics degree to get it. Its just balance, torque is arm times force. If they fire at the same time on each wing the force is equal. However unless you're perfectly co-ordinated when firing the cannon you'll definitely yaw like a mutha.
How much yaw are you going to get when they are firing at a small fraction of a second apart? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question considering the time it takes for a plane to physicaly move to yaw and the time between shots.

Edit for spelling

Stuka_G10
12-10-2005, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by CHDT:
Hi all,

I've no problem with the FM of the latest patch, but when firing, the flightline of the aircraft is so much deviated, that it's now impossible to get a precise aiming!

Is it normal or not?

Because in external views, it looks wrong: when firing, the tail of the aircraft moves like a one-legged running duck (even with the ball perfectly in the middle)!
theres too much repitition and hesitation as well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

ImpStarDuece
12-10-2005, 02:29 PM
Unfortunately I have to agree.

It is now almost impossible to make effective high deflection tracking shots decause of the random deviation of the nose upon firing.

I'm generally a Spitfire flyer, so I have been messing about attempting to regain my accuracy with the new FM. Mostly practicing low altitude turn fighting against MC.202s and LaGGs in QMB. The tough DMs of these birds mean that I require multiple solid cannon hits to effect a kill.

Generally I'll roll in on a target, wash some speed and pull inside of their turn, hold it to generate lead and then make a shot with only the Hispanos. Unless my fist rounds hit the target I have no chance of the burst being effective. The force of the recoil results in the nose wandering back and forth (left to right) and kicking downwards and the bullet stream will generally spray above and behind of the target i'm tracking.

For comparison, I went and flew the A6M5 and just fired the cannon, the lightest wing-cannon armed plane in the game. The deviation when firing is there. The nose and tail still shake in prolonged bursts and the gunsight wanders. However, the movement after firing is an entire order of magnitude smaller than on the Spitfire. It is significantly and instanly noticably smaller. The result is that the Aero is far more stable as a gun platform, meaning that in ground straffing and aerial tracking shots or deflection shots. This translates to an ahistorical advantage to the Zero.

SUPERAEREO
12-10-2005, 02:42 PM
I have seen good quality footage of Spitfire Mk.IX firing their guns and if it wasn't for the smoke and the empty rounds from the wings you would not even realise they were shooting.

I do strongly suspect that the recoil effect in the game is way overmodelled.


S!

Bremspropeller
12-10-2005, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
Man you have absolutley NO gunnery time in a
P-47 do you? P-47 is as bad as 20mm cannons in stablity. And i have seen them as bad as firing Mk-108's. The Jug just yaws like crazy.

I have plenty offiring time in the 47 - but in contrast to you I hit.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Next time at least TRY to read and understand what other people say / write. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

He was talking about REAL Spit IBs and REAL P-47s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VW-IceFire
12-10-2005, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
I have seen good quality footage of Spitfire Mk.IX firing their guns and if it wasn't for the smoke and the empty rounds from the wings you would not even realise they were shooting.

I do strongly suspect that the recoil effect in the game is way overmodelled.


S!
I think so too...lots of aircraft have some really strange sway when firing under normal conditions.

Now they say that the kick from one 20mm firing out of two was significant...but when both were firing together it was supposedly fairly straight. A vibration to be felt yes...but not a deviation in flight.

p1ngu666
12-11-2005, 12:02 AM
spitfire gunnery is like what surgy must be like for a junior doctor. doing one thing slowly at a time (mg and cannon) and taking lots of breathers cos your swaying from tiredness http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

thats what i do anyways, only a bomber sized target do i let off a few seconds of fire, otherwise im just firing off a couple of rounds. flew 190 earlier no such issues, just pull trigger

Grey_Mouser67
12-13-2005, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
I have seen good quality footage of Spitfire Mk.IX firing their guns and if it wasn't for the smoke and the empty rounds from the wings you would not even realise they were shooting.

I do strongly suspect that the recoil effect in the game is way overmodelled.


S!
I think so too...lots of aircraft have some really strange sway when firing under normal conditions.

Now they say that the kick from one 20mm firing out of two was significant...but when both were firing together it was supposedly fairly straight. A vibration to be felt yes...but not a deviation in flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Hispano's were the most powerful cannon in the sim prior to the new FM...they probably still are from a kinetic energy standpoint, but I can no longer keep hits on target. Oddly, I have no problem with the Fw and it has 4 similar cannons. I have a difficult time with the lightning too...and it is much improved. I can keep the HMG's on but not the cannons and guns for more than a split second unless I'm in a good tracking shot. The G-2 by contrast is easy for me to make strong stick inputs and rapidly settle in on a target and fire, get multiple hits and move on....I'd love to see more planes with similar dampening...the Lightning, Jug, Corsair and Mustang would rock if they were dampened, stabilized and the syncronization taken care of...

I sometimes get the feeling that Oleg gets pressure from unknown(to me) sources because he does odd things like sync HMG's, cause sway in the Hisapano's, has less dispersion in the Mk108 than the .30 and .50 cal weapons and stuff like that...makes absolutely no sense to me...who is John Galt

ECV56_Rolf
12-14-2005, 05:25 AM
It is not the Hispanos, nor any gun. It is the minor corrections you input to aim.

Fire the guns in a stable position, and you will see there is no trouble on aiming. Fire while you are correcting your aim, and you will be spraying the sky with bullets.

It is not the canons. It is the wobble.

ImpStarDuece
12-14-2005, 01:40 PM
Try this simple test.

Load up the FMB and put a Spitfire on a runway on any map. Save it there and start a test mission. Pull the cannon trigger.

See what happens?

The plane is not only forced backwards, but moves sided to side as well. It even happens with a locked tail-wheel.

Ergo, it is not adjustments when we aim, but the recoil of the cannons throwing the plane about.

darkhorizon11
12-21-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Tator_Totts:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
You don't need a physics degree to get it. Its just balance, torque is arm times force. If they fire at the same time on each wing the force is equal. However unless you're perfectly co-ordinated when firing the cannon you'll definitely yaw like a mutha.
How much yaw are you going to get when they are firing at a small fraction of a second apart? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question considering the time it takes for a plane to physicaly move to yaw and the time between shots.

Edit for spelling </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question. It depends upon the exact timing. If its that close I'd say it'd be more of a vibration and rattle than a literal deviation. It would be so quick that you wouldn't have the reaction time to correct for it and even if you did he rudder wouldn't responds quick enough.

ECV56_Rolf
12-22-2005, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Try this simple test.

Load up the FMB and put a Spitfire on a runway on any map. Save it there and start a test mission. Pull the cannon trigger.

See what happens?

The plane is not only forced backwards, but moves sided to side as well. It even happens with a locked tail-wheel.

Ergo, it is not adjustments when we aim, but the recoil of the cannons throwing the plane about.

I made two tracks. One of a Spit MkIXe and the other a 190A6

There is a bigger recoil from the hispanos than the MG151.

Anyway, the side wooble this time is more because of the backward movement of the plane than anything else. And it is still very small.
Hitting the brake stops the side movement.
On some tests even the 190 moves side to side. If you just lock the wheel without checking it's proper possition, you straffe all the front of the building!

Personally I don´t have any trouble on deflection shots. ROF is a far bigger issue on this plane.

And the worst... it is very easy to stall it on not so low speeds... if it is right or wrong, I don't know.

Here is the Spit on land


http://www.ecv56condor.com.ar/~rolf/SpitMkIXe.ntrk


http://www.ecv56condor.com.ar/~rolf/190A6.ntrk

italianofalco
12-26-2005, 03:16 AM
"bump", as this is the worst thing now in this latest patches! (4.01-4.02) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif -Falco

WWMaxGunz
12-29-2005, 09:59 AM
The FM used to kind of keep the noses in line with the flight, and there were complaints
about not really needing much rudder use. I finally replaced my worn out stick and I can
say for sure the planes are a lot more controllable than I thought and... I can see a
clear advantage to getting pedals over a twisty because I'm already thinking I need those.

Sometimes the reason the nose wobbles is because it's being horsed around wrong.
Like a motorcycle, a plane is best finessed into and through maneuvers. Led through, not
pushed and shoved. Need to turn faster? Then go into vertical if you can.

AKA_TAGERT
12-29-2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
The FM used to kind of keep the noses in line with the flight, and there were complaints
about not really needing much rudder use. I finally replaced my worn out stick and I can
say for sure the planes are a lot more controllable than I thought and... I can see a
clear advantage to getting pedals over a twisty because I'm already thinking I need those.

Sometimes the reason the nose wobbles is because it's being horsed around wrong.
Like a motorcycle, a plane is best finessed into and through maneuvers. Led through, not
pushed and shoved. Need to turn faster? Then go into vertical if you can. Exactally! And one of these days the simps over and simhq will come to this realisation too.. At least I hope they do.. for their sake.

effte
01-01-2006, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by ECV56_Rolf:
If you look carefully at guncams, from every side on WWII, you will see that all tracers give something very different to what we have in game. They seem to be ZigZgging all the time to their target, instead of going like a little shooting star to the target.

That is the camera oscillating from firing the guns. The effect we see now I think is too strong. But to say there is no trembling when firing is a bigger asumption.

No, that is the tracer rounds describing a slightly spiralling path to the target. You'll see the same thing in tracers fired from other aircraft. Furthermore, as someone else alluded to, if it was the camera moving the tracers would be stationary compared to the backdrop and the entire picture would shake around. It doesn't.

Cheers,
Fred

WWMaxGunz
01-01-2006, 11:40 AM
I've recently had time to look at a good bit of guncam film from the Pacific.
I do note that while firing, the target gets blurred and sharpens when the shooting ends.
Would closer objects appear to shake as well only moreso being closer to the camera?
I think yes. The tracer wobble does appear to shrink as the tracers move farther away.

--------------------

If I'm scooting along and come in behind an enemy while slowing down, there is a critical
speed (IAS) for each plane where if I don't retrim the plane will be hard to hold true.

If I keep my speed then the problem is how little time I have to fire and still be able to
avoid making a Taran of it as well. If I haven't lined it up right then there's no time
to correct smoothly. If I try to force a quick correction then I'd better be doing it by
lining up opposing forces, where the plane is going vs perhaps my rudder, that I can keep
opposed actively until the shooting is done otherwise no duh the nose is going to swing.
That is not a sign of something wrong with the FM. To expect so is a sign of something
lacking in expectations.

ECV56_Rolf
01-02-2006, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
I've recently had time to look at a good bit of guncam film from the Pacific.
I do note that while firing, the target gets blurred and sharpens when the shooting ends.
Would closer objects appear to shake as well only moreso being closer to the camera?
I think yes. The tracer wobble does appear to shrink as the tracers move farther away.


In some way humans happen to be able to couteract this tremmors and don't get their vission blurring http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif,(do you ever imgined having not only some wooble, but also image blurring!) but yes I have seen the same guncams, and there is some vibs there. Not big woobles but vibs

BuzzardHead
01-02-2006, 06:01 PM
Sir Isac Newton's 3rd law? Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
I'm just an electrician.P=IxE

p1ngu666
01-02-2006, 08:50 PM
czech out the il2, the 7mm's shake the plane more than the 23mm's. and there right next to each other.

LostPigeon
01-02-2006, 09:46 PM
well first of all firing guns on ground seems pointless to me. I dont think wobble would be a problem on the ground since there is nothing to shoot at.. The real test would be in a perfectly trimed airframe at speed when one would be targetting say a friendly bomber. For my experience ther is a bit of wobble now that I didnt notice as much as before.. as I tinker with controls I can make it better and worse. I think main thing is to get used to it. in real life footage it doesnt apear to shake much but hard to say for sure unless your hand was on the trigger.. I believe that aircraft firing from wings would suffer more than plane firing from nose area.. Although when firing 109 nose cannons plane gyrates extreme. I have fired just machine guns in 109 and plane was pefect the touch of mk108 and she is all over the sky. maybee true not sure but seems like nose fired projectiles would have the least efect on gyration.I have nticed to that PIO is definetly a factor for me I have fired while holding the joystick and been dancing all over the place at times but using a keyboard button with hands off stick plane is much more stable.. Big clutzy hands I guess.. I think is different than used to be so just need practice to get feel of FM then all will be ok again... Would like a check on nose verses wing occilations though Ill try abd get at that tonite or tommorow..