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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:07 PM
Why are VVS-whiners called "the rightists" and Lufwhiners "the wrongists" ? Can anyone explain this to me.

People arguing for better Axis FM and DM are always judged as Luftwhiners and people arguing for better VVS FM and DM are judged as being correct in their opinion. What is the explanation to this?

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:07 PM
Why are VVS-whiners called "the rightists" and Lufwhiners "the wrongists" ? Can anyone explain this to me.

People arguing for better Axis FM and DM are always judged as Luftwhiners and people arguing for better VVS FM and DM are judged as being correct in their opinion. What is the explanation to this?

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:17 PM
Luftwhiners here, on this forum have two agendas:
1) Artificially inflate performance of LW planes (without offering any proofs);
2) Castrate the performance all the planes of the opposing side;
They label all their opponents VVS-whiners, just to justify their (Luftwhiners) existence.
The only thing they are capable of doing is while - loudly and obnoxiously.

There also a group of dedicated and knowledgeable LW pilots, who provide proofs of their finds - they are not a Luftwhiners by definition.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 02:57 PM
On the other hand VVS-whiners completely ignore the facts (such as Lagg3 behavour and DM), and keep coming with BS over and over again. They fly VVS, and they don't want to loose the stronger and overmodelled planes. That simple.. Lot of good arguments made by LW-whiners, but still they were rejeceted by Oleg and VVS-whiners.

If you can't beat them - join them..

____________________________________



Official Sig:



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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:03 PM
LaGG-3 type4 not overheating - is a bug. It had been reported to Oleg. By people who you call VVS-whiners.

You are BS-ing again.

AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:09 PM
Oleg knows that bug but why he don't do anything ?

He fear VVS-whiners /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ? right ?

Rata tank is back /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Lagg-3 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif List is endless /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Maybe open source code is better /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:29 PM
Bogun ->

U kinda answered my question. Indeed U R an answer and a good example...your post is exactly what I meant:

U came up with a good explanation in your own mind and reported just the facts that are agains Luftwhiners. Your last sentence completes your good try. In it U agree that there are people who actually come up with good references, but U again try to play down the importance by them by listing those things in top on a list of Luftwhiner minuses.

Funnily U also take all credit from LaGG3-report to your side and try to polish the VVS-whiner community's shield. It is like your days good workhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now anyone else care to take a better try on this matter?

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:40 PM
I think people on both sides just want things to be right. There are the Luft-haters and the Luft-whiners here for sure, but the majority of the people here are just wanting as realistic a game as can be had with today's technology.

Better than an open source code, why not a compilation of data that the developers used to determine flight and damage models. That way we could all pick though it and understand why certain things act like they do in this game.

Certainly not ALL data can be copywritten, and I seriously doubt any of that is still classified.. LOL

I for one would love to discover how much German-based, and USAAF based data was used compared to other Allied test flight data. Not for the purpose of pointing fingers, but for an informational point of view.

If the development team could do that, I bet it would put an end to a great deal of yelling, and give us some good reading while we wait for the expansion pack. It would allow us all to look at the game from 1C's perspective as well!

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:02 PM
Easy:
Axis forces lost the war; that why they are "wrongist" whiners. And also they are not as democratic and free as the opposite side. They were also bad guys once, and thats why they always lie unless they show facts in every post. -Then Luftwhiners dont only lie SO much. And because the dont have Pony, Jug or Spit in their signature.

----------------------------------------
mandatory /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif for tight-a$$es here
----------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:15 PM
as a us whiner http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif jug d27 roll .50cal effectiveness on vvs planes p40 top speed and roll rate I would like to say both sides vvs and luft have shown charts data and mock up testings which are correct and show flaws in fms FB still seems to be a WIP and hopefully things will get sorted out and the game will improve rather then some things improved and new worse problems that didnt exist before. Hopefully 1.2 they will get it right


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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:19 PM
Porta
Look at your own perception and let examine mine and NohtnyM posts.

Example of NOT Luftwhiner:
I said - people on LW side who provide honest proofs and try to work problems out - are not the Luftwhiners. Look at Jippo posts as example of the real decent and reasonable behavior.

Example of Luftwhiner - NohtnyM
1. "Rata is tank" - he obviously didn't try to fly I-16, othervise he would have known how vulnerable i-16 is now, but he does not care, he just whine.
2. "Oleg knows that bug but why he don't do anything ?" - this is just the best example of Luftwhiners BS over there. Bug been introduced with 1.11 patch, it had been reported and hopefully will be fixed with 1.2 patch. 1.2 patch is being tested now.
What else could Oleg do in meantime? Will this stop NohtnyM? NOT A CHANCE!
He just want to whine.

Now what you said about me:
"U also take all credit from LaGG3-report" - this is plane nasty.
I usually don't fly LaGG, but I found the post of one of the VOL guys on this forum about LaGG-3 type 41 not overheating and went testing. Once determined to be a bug - I reported it to Oleg via e-mail (by the way Russians from Sukhoi forum did it earlier).
What else am I to do? Ranting here together with NohtnyM?

I was asking for a long time on this forum for Oleg to put the end to all the speculations and have software like Youss' IL-2 Compare and HardBall's IL-2:FB aircraft viewer to be build into the game, so we all know what data is used to model AC in the game.
Is this reasonable? Is this whining? Is this VVS- or Luft-whining?



AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:25 PM
What I find humerous that there are both LW and VVS whiners.

They both think their planes are proked and under-performing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:40 PM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
- What I find humerous that there are both LW and VVS
- whiners.
-
- They both think their planes are proked and
- under-performing

You are missing the point Platypus,
Thinking that you plane is "proked and under-performing" is one thing, we all can learn to coop with it.
Whining endlessly and maliciously on a forum without offering any proof, wanting artificially inflate performance of your side planes and decrease performance of the planes of the other side - is quite another.
Luftwhiners made this into an art-form.



AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:42 PM
Bogun, I think your definitions are spot on!

Whiner posts are generally lacking in any kind of proof or evidence. People fly a plane for a few minutes in a QMB or read a single report and think they know more than the developers of the game do.

That doesn't mean that everything in the game is perfect, but honest efforts to report bugs or question FMs and DMs is not whining.

On the other hand, insulting the developers, complaining about biases, exaggerating perceived weaknesses or strengths, blaming the game for poor flying skills - these are all lame whiner tactics.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:35 PM
I'm the first Fini-whinner!!!!
I want a B-239 that reaches Match 3 and carries a 60mm cannon!

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:11 PM
Chadburn wrote:
- Bogun, I think your definitions are spot on!
-
- Whiner posts are generally lacking in any kind of
- proof or evidence. People fly a plane for a few
- minutes in a QMB or read a single report and think
- they know more than the developers of the game do.
-
- That doesn't mean that everything in the game is
- perfect, but honest efforts to report bugs or
- question FMs and DMs is not whining.
-
- On the other hand, insulting the developers,
- complaining about biases, exaggerating perceived
- weaknesses or strengths, blaming the game for poor
- flying skills - these are all lame whiner tactics.
-



Thank you Chadburn,

Having English as my third language I would never be able to express myself this well.

S!


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:59 PM
Bogun wrote:
- Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
-- What I find humerous that there are both LW and VVS
-- whiners.
--
-- They both think their planes are proked and
-- under-performing
-
- You are missing the point Platypus,
- Thinking that you plane is "proked and
- under-performing" is one thing, we all can learn to
- coop with it.
- Whining endlessly and maliciously on a forum without
- offering any proof, wanting artificially inflate
- performance of your side planes and decrease
- performance of the planes of the other side - is
- quite another.
- Luftwhiners made this into an art-form.
-
-
-
-
Sad but true

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 08:05 PM
What`s your second language Bogan? Just respectfull curiosity.

As for LW vs VVS whiners... wrong board for VVS whining /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 09:58 PM
Bogun wrote:

"Luftwhiners here, on this forum have two agendas:

1) Artificially inflate performance of LW planes
(without offering any proofs);

2) Castrate the performance all the planes of the
opposing side"



I think it is safe to say that they have failed miserably then for the last 2 years, especially where number 2 is concerned. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



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Message Edited on 09/25/0308:58PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 10:19 PM
yep i agree...

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 10:59 PM
Bogun wrote:
- Luftwhiners here, on this forum have two agendas:
- 1) Artificially inflate performance of LW planes
- (without offering any proofs);
- 2) Castrate the performance all the planes of the
- opposing side;
- They label all their opponents VVS-whiners, just to
- justify their (Luftwhiners) existence.
- The only thing they are capable of doing is while -
- loudly and obnoxiously.

That´s pretty much true for both partys. The distribution of knowledge and foolery is neither bound to nationality nor personal preference, and should be equally divided in both camps.

Having a higher number of LW players being vocal on this board is to my understanding mainly a result of language. I don´t know the numbers, but i´m confident that the bulk of dedicated VVS players actually has russian as a first language, or at least is somehwhat fluent in written and spoken russian. What we have here on this board as i see it are mainly U.S. and G.B. players playing the VVS side and doing their share of whining.

Oleg´s native tongue is russian, so what more efficiant than trying to get ones "ideas" across in the corresponding language in the corresponding boards, while as a side effect eliminating the bulk of "Luftwhiners" from participating in these discussions at the same time, because of an obvious language barrier. If you had access to the language in these boards, i´m sure that you would realise that an equal amount of whining with equal shares of warranted and unwarranted complaints is going on as anywhere else.

============================
The important thing in [tactics] is to suppress the enemys useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.

Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
Japanese Samurai and Philosopher
(More than 60 Victories in Hand-to-Hand combat.)

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:30 PM
VVS are just loosers that fly those a/c just because they perform better...
Before il2 just a few people knew them, now a lot love them... That´s strange.

FLY with the LW whiners! thats a real chalenge.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:32 PM
Don't know crap about FM or DM, I just fly what Oleg gave us! 109's 190's 262's and B-239, this is our fighter tool box! Historic? Yes but not much to work with when facing P-51's P-38's P-47's and on and on and on! Why the P-51 flyable and the AI B-17 for the first add-on, why not the 110 or Ta 152 even allied flyer's have to admit we need more in our tool box! Don't you think? Wouldn't it be more fun to fly against something other than 109's and 190's for a change! Already most servers don't use the 262 calling it uber but with the limitations on throttle and engine fires? How effective will it be against P-80? I'd just like to have a few more tools to work with! My second whinne/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif how am I doing? It's not easy if you find something wrong with a whole line of aircraft, and there the majority of your forces! Allies on the other hand can chose from a selection of aircraft, P-47 don't roll so good..fly the La-7?......or Yak or whatever you like! Least for me that's what I mean by balance of power! Just don't want to find servers forced to dogfight P-51's on P-38's cuss what's a Luftwhinner going to fly? And remember when Olegs done with it that's it!!! Still think it's the best damn WW 2 Sim we could ask for, just needs some more planes and tuning

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 11:33 PM
Fehler wrote:
- I think people on both sides just want things to be
- right. There are the Luft-haters and the
- Luft-whiners here for sure, but the majority of the
- people here are just wanting as realistic a game as
- can be had with today's technology.
-
- Better than an open source code, why not a
- compilation of data that the developers used to
- determine flight and damage models. That way we
- could all pick though it and understand why certain
- things act like they do in this game.
-
- Certainly not ALL data can be copywritten, and I
- seriously doubt any of that is still classified..
- LOL
-
- I for one would love to discover how much
- German-based, and USAAF based data was used compared
- to other Allied test flight data. Not for the
- purpose of pointing fingers, but for an
- informational point of view.
-
- If the development team could do that, I bet it
- would put an end to a great deal of yelling, and
- give us some good reading while we wait for the
- expansion pack. It would allow us all to look at
- the game from 1C's perspective as well!


I think Fehler here said it best. There are plenty here who are middle-of-the-road. I agree and disagree with points by both sides. I will say that most of the so-called "Luftwhiners" are rude and easy to call names. I've been called an "apologists",an "Oleg Worshipper",and my favorite,an "Ubi Commissar" simply for disagreeing with some points raised by them. USAAF,VVS,etc whiners seem to be able to carry a more cordial debate. There ARE people here who bring up valid and knowledgeable points about the inaccuracies of the German aircraft without resorting to childish behavior. They are NOT Luftwhiners in my book. Lufwhiners to me are just that and nothing more:whiners.

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 02:38 AM
necrobaron wrote:
- I will say that
- most of the so-called "Luftwhiners" are rude and
- easy to call names. I've been called an
- "apologists",an "Oleg Worshipper",and my favorite,an
- "Ubi Commissar" simply for disagreeing with some
- points raised by them.


I know there are some really rude people in this forum. But not everything that sounds rude to your ears was meant to be rude.

Most people who use English as their second or third language simply have a limited English vocabulary. Even if they look up some words in the dictionary they never know about all the possible connotations. They may spend lots of time to elaborate a forum post that still doesn't contain all they have to say. And when you don't have the right words to express yourself, emotions may take over.

If you take that too seriously you'll make thing even worse.

And if you rebuff them for being emotional, or not using adequate rhetoric, or not spelling correctly, you are just a lousy bunch off %#*&X, you got what I mean? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

---------------
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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 02:45 AM
Give it a rest, Porta.

A Luftweenie like me loves a good retaliation when attacked, but I don't see the glaring logic of provoking people in your fashion. Why the hell are ya running amok, waging war against so many people? What've you got, a crusade going?

If that's so, sheesh. leave us Luftweenies outta this.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 04:45 AM
Heh, I'm on the sideline waiting till they all kill each other... Then my race will take over the forum (anti-whiners that is)/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 05:10 AM
Yeah the Luftwhiners only report about the things wrong with Allied planes Like the LaGG that can climb straight up and lose its energy so slowly that it can catch a 109 that just BnZed it. YOur the LAs that outclimb a 190. Or the Yak that can catch a 109 in level straight flight.

Its not that they are whinning its that they are tired of the MULTIPLE FM and DM changes that have occured since IL2 first came out. Some will remember the EXTREME whinnig done by the VVS crowd when IL2 first came out WAWAWAWA the 190 flys to good and WALAA next patch its PORKED.

Then there were little changes here and there but the 109 could get away from a Yak in a BnZ situation. And the 190 could still fly away from a LA.

Then we come to FB WAWAWA the 109 is to fast WAWAWAWA it climbs to good WAWAWAWA blah blah blah.

Then after over 6 riotous months we get are first taste of a patch. WOW this isnt bad the FM and DM are close need just a tad bit more and then Oleg will be on to something.

Then BLAM 1.11 comes out and wow the 109 cant climb it overheats it flys like a brick. The 190 yeah its faster and just a tad bit more agile but WT F how did that LA get behind me so fast. Sure the 190 takes alot of abuse but look at the down side. Once its hit it wont go over 550kph so now your in trouble cause the Yaks and LAs will pounce all over you.


Sure the Yaks stall a little easier now but the lazers it has for guns makes up for that. The LAs climb like mad and have better lazers then the Yaks. The LaGGs as said before dont overheat can climb with little enery loss. and so on and so forth.

Then the VVS whiners come on here and say hey i did it this way and thats the way you should do it. And if you dont like it to bad.

So maybe this little bit of what ever you want to call it a whine or constructive critism will help you under stand a little bit of what its like on the other end of the LW VVS debate. But im not counting on it though.

Used to fly both LW and VVS in IL2 but since the release of FB i have had to raise my standards and forget about the VVS planes as i would only be cheating myself. So excuse me while i go fire up FB grab a 190 109 Brewster or a P-40 and take it to the sky



Edited to fix W T F whats up with that



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"





"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 07:37 AM
plumps_ wrote:
-
- necrobaron wrote:
-- I will say that
-- most of the so-called "Luftwhiners" are rude and
-- easy to call names. I've been called an
-- "apologists",an "Oleg Worshipper",and my favorite,an
-- "Ubi Commissar" simply for disagreeing with some
-- points raised by them.
-
-
- I know there are some really rude people in this
- forum. But not everything that sounds rude to your
- ears was meant to be rude.
-
- Most people who use English as their second or third
- language simply have a limited English vocabulary.
- Even if they look up some words in the dictionary
- they never know about all the possible connotations.
- They may spend lots of time to elaborate a forum
- post that still doesn't contain all they have to
- say. And when you don't have the right words to
- express yourself, emotions may take over.
-
- If you take that too seriously you'll make thing
- even worse.
-
- And if you rebuff them for being emotional, or not
- using adequate rhetoric, or not spelling correctly,
- you are just a lousy bunch off %#*&X, you got what
- I mean?

Hehe,I get what you're saying and you make good points. Though,I'm pretty sure the "Luftwhiners" I'm thinking about(who won't be mentioned)spoke English as a first language(or if not,at least have it mastered). Also let me reiterate(sp?) that I don't think that ALL who complain about German FM flaws are Luftwhiners. There are some who genuinely know what they're talking about and can carry themselves in a dignified manner and not resort to mud-slinging. The ones who make exaggerated claims,feel that Oleg has some personal vendetta against them and their favorite planes,think that FB is totally ruined and unplayable just because climb-rate or roll-rate,etc is off on selected planes,and in general moan and gripe are the ones I call Luftwhiners. In short they tend to act like a bunch of self-righteous,arrogant babies. Plus many I see make fun of Oleg's shaky English all the time. They'd do well to take your advice,Plumps./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg


Message Edited on 09/26/0301:40AM by necrobaron

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 10:22 AM
I think I am a good pilot. When i fly Luftwaffe planes I still achieve kills, regardless of which tactics. But sometimes you can have a bad day and you still achieve kills, but not as much as your standard is. Then I choose a WS plane and my kill ratio is better than on good days with LW planes. That shows to me, that WS planes are very easy to fly and its easier to achieve kills(regardless of which tactics) in it.
A pal from my Squad flew 28 Loopings one after another in the LA 7, the only reason he stopped it was, that he was bored of this test. This test was started at 50-100 altitude and ended at this altitude. Thats very curious.
Sure, I think that the rollrate of the 190 is to high. But who need this high rollrate?
Than the WS pilots complain about the stability of the LA 7, but hey, that are MK108 bullets, that destroy their planes.
The patch 1.1b gave us a good MK 108, but with the 1.11 patch I think the MK108 became weaker. Don´t know if it is the rof or the explosion power. Fact is, that I need much longer with the 1.11 Patch to destroy another plane(regardless of which plane) than with the 1.1b Patch.
These performance jumps between the patches are that, what makes me angry. On 1.1b the 109(>43 series) was a good plane. Now, it is very heavy to fight with it.
Sometimes I flew WS planes(we are a fun squad and use every plane except the 262) and I do not notice any heavy disatvantages that apeared after a new patch. They still are easy to fly. In 1.1b the gunpower improved(esp MK 108), but the LA didn´t get weaker. Only the guns made more damage. If you look at the B 17 with big holes in the side made by MK 108, I think, that the MK 108 make big damage.
I understand the P 47 "whiners" as well, if they get angry about the rollrate.
I would say, that the people are no whiner, they are critics and no one really likes criticism(Ok, positve, but this is very seldom here /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).

The language and slang problem:
Normally I don´t take a holding on "whining" threads, probably because of the language barrier someone mentioned. I understand most of the threads with their statements, proves, insults etc... but it is heavy to express, what you mean, when it is not your native language. So sometimes it sounds rude, but you don´t mean it so.
Some english or american english expressions (that are slang) sounds like insults, just as the translation of german slang to english for you(who speak english since his childhood).
I think both sides have to be less aggressive, that misunderstandings and disputes can be avoided. Flamers have to be banned, because they cause bad mood. But only if they are real flamers.


Arrgh, it´s a long time ago, that I wrote something in english lol. Hope you understand, what I mean /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



You think that the Messerschmitt 262 had poor quality?!? Then look at the Top Gun AfterBurner FFB... thats poor quality!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
Reclamations counter: 2
I am a Thrustwhiner

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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 12:02 PM
Bogun wrote:
- Luftwhiners here, on this forum have two agendas:
- 1) Artificially inflate performance of LW planes
- (without offering any proofs);
- 2) Castrate the performance all the planes of the
- opposing side;
- They label all their opponents VVS-whiners, just to
- justify their (Luftwhiners) existence.
- The only thing they are capable of doing is while -
- loudly and obnoxiously.

Rgr that Bogun. That Luftwhiners have these agendas in mind you can also see by some of the servers which are around. They love early war servers. 109Es and 109F4s against i-16 and Hurricane or some other planes with a huge speed disadvantage. And then they still whine when they get outturned /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . For any LW pilot who knows about basic B&Z, this is basically a shooting gallery. And the only place to succeed for some of them who can't hold their own against similar high performing planes. Or they just ban the planes which they consider screwed. La7 3x20mm is often banned since "it was not very common". Yeah, as common as the MK-108 was on the EF /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Wonder why they don't ban the 190 then, with its alien high-G ability. Now THIS is really a ticket to safe return, when from on a certain speed no other plane keeps up with your maneuvers by lengths.

Further more, what you mention later, the labeling by Luftwhiners - the truth is, there never has been such terms for allied flyers. For a reason. "Luftwhiner" fits to "Luftwaffe", and the Luftwaffe crowd in almost any game was into major conspiracy theories ..."Cause "we" lost the war, our planes must not fly well" - boy, give me a break. "VVS-Whiner" or "Ameriwhiner" is just something they try to hide behind /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .


=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 12:09 PM
There's also the US whiners, who want by any means to keep the LW planes underperforming so they have a chance to fight them in their P39 or their P47. So not only VVS whiners slam the german planes. I'd say more ameriwhiners do it than VVS whiners, probably because the russian dudes must mostly be on russian forums.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 12:43 PM
Sweeping generalisations don't get anyone anywhere.

Criticisms about 'sides' leaving out figures that don't suit their purpose, distorting historial perspectives, wishing for peoples requests to the developers to be denied over personal disputes, failing to cite sources, confusing vitrolic outbursts with substantive argument, emotive rather than logical thought ...

and the classic defintions most of the above fall under:

glittering generalities,
euphemisms,
transfer,
testimonials,
"plain folks" appeals,
fear,
bandwagoning,
logical fallacies.
etc.

If you need to use these in any form of debate then you've already lost, and trying hard not to let anyone else know about it. No matter who uses them.

It's a shame people feel the need to resort to them so often debating what they feel should happen in a computer game.



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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 06:52 PM
A couple of people now have asked me what the above terms mean and where they're from.

I was doing some more reading about the classical forms of propaganda - something I like reading about anyhow. I love old imperial japanese propaganda posters [first got into jim thirlwell/foetus' work via his album covers parodying it, if anyone wonders where the clint-ruin name comes from :>] and I love reading about advertising/propaganda/spin doctoring, etc.

A good list of sites regarding information about the above terms can be found via this site here:

http://www.propagandacritic.com/




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