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View Full Version : A serious post about spit ix behavior



meina222
02-17-2005, 02:25 PM
I think it is high time for someone to explain why is spit ix virtually E-bleedless in turn climbs. I can toy with any luftawaffe prop plane (even a bunch of them) hover over them take close photo shoots and laugh out loud. And when it suits me I can drop on the most convenient victim and try gun it. Not to speak about the never breaking engine.

I'll give 100$ to anyone who beats me in a spit ix with a luftwaffe prop plane (vs a 50$ bet to make it easier to accept http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Come on!!!

meina222
02-17-2005, 02:25 PM
I think it is high time for someone to explain why is spit ix virtually E-bleedless in turn climbs. I can toy with any luftawaffe prop plane (even a bunch of them) hover over them take close photo shoots and laugh out loud. And when it suits me I can drop on the most convenient victim and try gun it. Not to speak about the never breaking engine.

I'll give 100$ to anyone who beats me in a spit ix with a luftwaffe prop plane (vs a 50$ bet to make it easier to accept http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Come on!!!

faustnik
02-17-2005, 02:34 PM
Oohh, $100.00. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif How many chances do I get?

VW-IceFire
02-17-2005, 02:44 PM
Uhhh the 109 pretty much parallels the Spitfire for performance. It hangs on its prop just as much recently as the Spitfire does.

The "worst" offender to me is the Bf 109G-2 which I saw do a phenomenal move against me. I was totally not prepared for the ability of climb and the ability to hang on its prop to deliver that killing blow.

Faustnik and/or myself could probably beat you flying FW190s. It all depends on the situation.

The "problem" is that the stall modeling is different now than before. So you can hang through a manuver without too much difficulty. Even the FW190 bleeds less E than ever before (although its still quite rapid for most people).

Consider that there are global FM dynamics at work. A change in one affects a good number of planes, the Spitfire included. The Spitfire design lends itself to good E retention (which can be used against it) so if a global variable favors that sort of element then it goes up and we get a post like this.

The 109 is just as much an offender.

meina222
02-17-2005, 02:44 PM
as many as you want - if u manage a success rate of > 20% u get it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But otherwise i get something :P

spit ix needs fixing

meina222
02-17-2005, 02:48 PM
hang on its prop hmmm. yes the g2 comes closest from what i saw. maybe it can match it but i doubt it. bc spit ix comes close to perfection lol. A FW? i wouldnt worry about it. much easier to avoid (though harder to catch)

this behavior is against reality and i can bet another 100$ on this claim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif though no way to prove.

p1ngu666
02-17-2005, 03:09 PM
last time i tried, 109g2 seemed and felt like the best helicopter, no hard numbers, just "feel"

meina222
02-17-2005, 03:15 PM
could be the spit ix counteroffender. but no way the poor FW!

VW-IceFire
02-17-2005, 03:39 PM
While you're at proving your point...toss us up a track file of you performing a E bleedless turn climb. Love to see it.

faustnik
02-17-2005, 03:40 PM
Please check PMs Meina. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
02-17-2005, 03:48 PM
I just did a couple of tests. Mark VIII, Yak-9M, Bf 109G-2. All of them can reach a sustained climb at 200-240 where their speed does not decline, yet they are in a very stable climb. I didn't really see or feel much difference between any of them in relation to this phenomenon. So why are we talking about the Spitfire specifically?

Oh and I like your new sig Faustnik. Very nice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

faustnik
02-17-2005, 03:54 PM
Thanks IceFire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I took the screenshot and added the text then RAF74_Bouncer did the prop redo for me.

meina222
02-17-2005, 04:01 PM
Lets say bc spit ix (full wing) does it in a way that makes it the worst of all (compared to luftwaffe.) What is a PM?

And i'm not tryiing to prove anything - come and test in game for yourself - forget about those charts and numbers.

spiral up and up and up and up and up - and i said virtually no ebleed - which is different from not at all.

in fact the spit ix deserves the title "most ridiculous item of the game" right now from what i've seen after a 6 month absence. Before it wasnt much better btw.

And again im yet to see how a FW can beat it in equal start fight.

pourshot
02-17-2005, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And i'm not trying to prove anything - come and test in game for yourself - forget about those charts and numbers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are,You are trying to prove that the spit is over modeled or else you would not have posted to start with, and hard numbers are all that matters here your "feelings" count for nothing.

tigertalon
02-17-2005, 06:03 PM
Well, as a D9 rider, I have to admit that the most fearsome opponent in my sight is spit HF. I have to extend very very far away to be able to attack again. If I perform usual B&Z, which is enough to take out Yak3 or La7, spit gains about 500 m every turn, so he catches on me very fast.

How about K4? It has unbelieveable climb... Are you able to deal with that?

meina222
02-17-2005, 06:21 PM
Mr poorshot,

You are so wrong. I don't try to prove anything - I claim it as a fact and you are free to believe it or not (depending on your perception.)

K-4 is much more fearsome opponent than D-9 or any FW for that matter (even Ta)

Tigertalon, you are so right about the D-9. When in Spit IX HF or c i tend to feel quite easy when I encounter a FW. This is exactly bc of what you say - I can pull slightly up and left say and avoid the pass by attack of the FW (unless of course it comes way from above when its tougher) and then either catch him up on the 180 degree or if he dives away just hold my course and see if he dares come up again.

Just did some tests with a decent pilot online in HL - I just toy with the A6 and D9. Its the spit not the pilot - thats my point.

I dont really do the prop hang phenomenon btw. Also a P-47 is unable to do what I just described.

VW-IceFire
02-17-2005, 06:51 PM
Well I'm about done on this one. This is a global FM problem and this is the usual attempt to point fingers at the Spitfire which is quickly becoming the most loved and hated of aircraft.

The number of topics related to overheat, climb rate, firepower, and so on is starting to outscore the old ones on the La-7. We don't even complain about the Bf 109K-4 anymore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If we want to be serious on this topic, you have to attack the global FM modeling because thats what is at fault here. The Spitfire modeling is, within the margin of error for a PC flight simulation, quite correct based on the numbers and data that I've seen. What is not is the fact that our computers aren't cray supercomputers yet and Oleg can't do everything. Still, global FM modeling is the main culprit and some work may have to be done. Whatever you can do with the Spitfire IX, I'll betcha the Bf 109G-2 can do it just as well or better because it has the same behavior. And so do other aircraft.

Cheers.

carguy_
02-17-2005, 07:00 PM
If you ask me the Spit IX is really dangerous up to 2v2 engagements.

I`ve flown a Normandy map online campaign for uuuuh 3months.Spit IX even if it has great ability to maneuver and very good armament it really should be avoiding Me109-FW190 combo.

Why do ppl compare it with late `44 LW plane I dunno I never got to fly in one of`em,only Me109G6 or FW190A6.Okay once on every 10 missions it was a G10.

G10 is a good match against a Spit if you know what you`re doing.

IX is a perfect energy plane though too many use it for T&B.

meina222
02-17-2005, 07:14 PM
oh no if you see how many posts i have i dont complain at all here. but it is my feeling that the spitfire is just super super easy to fly. maybe that was true but i doubt certain aspects (described above)

As far as global FM is concerned - there are a number of real pilots here (including development team) and they should know better.

however im still waiting for anyone to catch me in my slaphappy spitty. :P

BTW p-51, p-47 and all FWs are modelled in a very satsifactory way - they feel much more real subjectively speaking.

HayateAce
02-17-2005, 09:04 PM
zzzzzzz

Another luftie gets worked by a Spitty and comes to the forums for counseling.

Badsight.
02-17-2005, 09:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meina222:
I think it is high time for someone to explain why is spit ix virtually E-bleedless in turn climbs. I can toy with any luftawaffe prop plane (even a bunch of them) hover over them take close photo shoots and laugh out loud. And when it suits me I can drop on the most convenient victim and try gun it. Not to speak about the never breaking engine.

I'll give 100$ to anyone who beats me in a spit ix with a luftwaffe prop plane (vs a 50$ bet to make it easier to accept http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Come on!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>bet RAF pilots said the same thing after DF's with Bf-109's during WW2

pourshot
02-17-2005, 09:28 PM
Again what you believe is of no value if it€s based on Feelings. If you think the spit is modeled any worse than any other plane in this game you need to provide proof in the form of test tracks and documents to support your claim. This forum is supposed to be used to improve things not to talk about what you believe or feel. If you have something to show us in the way hard facts then this is the place, if not this topic is just a whine and should be moved to the general forum.

Also if you think the spit is so unbeatable then maybe you should get on hyper lobby and see what the pro 190 players in greater green do to you in your uber ride LOL.

3.JG51_BigBear
02-17-2005, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
BTW p-51, p-47 and all FWs are modelled in a very satsifactory way - they feel much more real subjectively speaking. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always thought that some planes have that "real" plane feel and other seem to have the flight model someone would expect in a computer game. The P-51 (fast becoming my new favorite plane), P-47, FW-190, Ki-61, Early P-40s, and the La5 (and 7s I guess) all seem to have highly advanced flight models. They've progressed over time and become more and more true to life and seem to have the performance that visual records and pilot accounts attribute to them for the most part. There are other planes, the spitty being one along with the Yak family, the Ki-43, and the ME 109 (just to name a few) that don't seem to have matured past video game status. Even when there isn't a "universal change" they seem to have abilities that don't jive with the way one would think an armored and armed aircraft would handle. Its just an observation from the last four years but some planes really seem to have come in their own while others, for one reason or another, just haven't been brought to the same level. Just my 2 cents.

Badsight.
02-17-2005, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pourshot:
Also if you think the spit is so unbeatable then maybe you should get on hyper lobby and see what the pro 190 players in greater green do to you in your uber ride LOL. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i will kick any FW in a DF using any Mk8 or 9

& it will be easy

your talking about a totally different fighting style to DFing

p1ngu666
02-17-2005, 09:52 PM
bigbear, u seem to mention heavy fighters, apart from la7...

ki43 should be a ufo for a start http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

yeah heavy stuff feels more real... right until u have snap stall of death in b25 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
02-17-2005, 09:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
bigbear, u seem to mention heavy fighters, apart from la7...

ki43 should be a ufo for a start http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

yeah heavy stuff feels more real... right until u have snap stall of _death_ in b25 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, I guess like any good American I like big, heavy, gas guzzling rides. The snap stall of death drove me nuts until I watched the B-25 training video over at Zeno's and realized that doing aileron rolls 100M above the ground on one engine wasn't really what the US army had in mind for her.

pourshot
02-17-2005, 10:35 PM
[/QUOTE]i will kick any FW in a DF using any Mk8 or 9 & it will be easy

your talking about a totally different fighting style to DFing[/QUOTE]

He is not talking about the spitfire in a classic turning fight, he is focused on its ability to hang by the prop in a climbing turn. If you take a 190 and start out even, with pilots of the same skill level then sure my money would be on the spit but we all know that€s not what happens now or even in ww2. He claimed the spit is so poorly modeled in a steep climb that he is unbeatable in it he even offered money to back his claim but no proof.

If this gentleman has something to show us that proves the spit needs fixing any more than every other plane in this game I am more than happy to see it, I welcome anything that improves this game.


By the way the spiral climb was perhaps in real life the spits best escape, I think it was most useful when done to the right against 109€s. I seem to remember an account by Johnny Johnson in which he used this maneuver, not only did he avoided being hit by a gaggle of 109€s but also once he reached the correct height for his supercharger he managed to out pace them in doing so he escaped to fight another day.

BlackStar2000
02-18-2005, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meina222:
I think it is high time for someone to explain why is spit ix virtually E-bleedless in turn climbs. I can toy with any luftawaffe prop plane (even a bunch of them) hover over them take close photo shoots and laugh out loud. And when it suits me I can drop on the most convenient victim and try gun it. Not to speak about the never breaking engine.

I'll give 100$ to anyone who beats me in a spit ix with a luftwaffe prop plane (vs a 50$ bet to make it easier to accept http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Come on!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are the Devil!!!! and God will punish you

Raise you offer to a Large Pizza and im in.

Pingu

Dont start with Helicopter Stuff, Right now Allied have the WW2 harrier steepClimbModels

tigertalon
02-18-2005, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meina222:
K-4 is much more fearsome opponent than D-9 or any FW for that matter (even Ta)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, IMO you have to consider D9 has excellent maneouvrability at high speeds, probably the best in sim. Many D9 flyers do not use it. K4 is a diesel locomotive at high speeds.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Tigertalon, you are so right about the D-9. When in Spit IX HF or c i tend to feel quite easy when I encounter a FW. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This kind of attitude is what dooms most spit pilots I encounter. They consider me an easy kill.

When (if) we get real D9 (no fuel leak bug, no SO ruined FM after a single .50 wing hit, fixed Mg151/20s) odds should change a little bit.

hop2002
02-18-2005, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think it is high time for someone to explain why is spit ix virtually E-bleedless in turn climbs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All planes lose energy in a turn. The Spitfire should lose less than most because of it's low wingloading.

The higher the wing loading, the higher the induced drag in a turn.

The Spitfire IX is also one of the best climbing aircraft of WW2, put those 2 together and you have an aircraft with fantastic spiral climb characteristics.

MEGILE
02-18-2005, 08:08 AM
I hope Oleg doesn't waste 5 minutes of his precious time on this thread.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
02-18-2005, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megile:
I hope Oleg doesn't waste 5 minutes of his precious time on this thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 min, pffff make it 1 lol
these kinda threads get boring wheter its about a 109 or spitfire

spitfire should be good, but i shot down somany of them i start to think the spit sucks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

we all know its the pilot right?

Kurfurst__
02-18-2005, 09:20 AM
The Spit XIV is overmodelled. Everyone knows this. Its common knowledge. So stop the commie nazi buddhist revisionist luftwhiner mossad-talk, you anti-american apologist potato. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

They should fix the speeds though. We dont need the XIV if we already have it, just named IX HF.

Olegs team already got the fix for us, though. Its yellow and weights 330 grams. Install it over any Spitfire version, and it gets it fixed, trust me.

p1ngu666
02-18-2005, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
bigbear, u seem to mention heavy fighters, apart from la7...

ki43 should be a ufo for a start http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

yeah heavy stuff feels more real... right until u have snap stall of _death_ in b25 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif, I guess like any good American I like big, heavy, gas guzzling rides. The snap stall of death drove me nuts until I watched the B-25 training video over at Zeno's and realized that doing aileron rolls 100M above the ground on one engine wasn't really what the US army had in mind for her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it can happen at any height, and your only really safe above 400kph. and with whatever power settings http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

fish said it was worse than 190 in snap stall http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Chivas
02-18-2005, 10:38 AM
It doesn't matter your gonna die anyway. The lower fighter is vectoring a higher fighter on your ***. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stiglr
02-18-2005, 04:15 PM
Seeing as a Spit will ALWAYS be pretty close to the climb performance of its contemporary Bf109 (e.g., Emil vs SpitI, Franz vs. Spit V, Gustav vs Spit IX, and Kurfirst vs. Spit XIV), this wouldn't appear to be the fault of the Spit. It's just that, since the Spitty will always do better in the flat turn, the lack of E bleed will always benefit the Spit in the end.

Seems to my untrained eye that all that tweaking to make CV aircraft landable and launchable is the culprit.

But, if the FM once again is empowering the "stand on your nose, stable and blast away" trait that made the Hurri II such a "ueberjoke" not too long ago, it bodes ill for the sim. If you can't use good energy stall tactics, well, of course it's the Luftwaffe's favorite son, the Bf109 that suffers, and it can't make it up in turning; or diving, either, with the lockjaw elevator.

Checkmate.

LeadSpitter_
02-18-2005, 04:17 PM
GIVE IT A REST LUFTWHINERS.

faustnik
02-18-2005, 04:22 PM
Have something to say or just name calling again Leadspitter?

meina222
02-19-2005, 02:30 AM
It really amuses me how i'm being called a luftwhiner given that i fly allied 95% of the time (and only blue if needing to even up player count)

Some comments on the merits of spit ix hf vs any german plane in game - i'm more than eager to meet the so "called" pro blue pilots in HL in a 1 v 1 fight - the result will be humiliating - my nickname is BSS_Meina - just page me - my large pizza or 100$ bet stays.

pourshot
02-19-2005, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by meina222:
i'm more than eager to meet the so "called" pro blue pilots in HL in a 1 v 1 fight - the result will be humiliating - my nickname is BSS_Meina - just page me - my large pizza or 100$ bet stays. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow can I post this in the general forum as a open challenge?

I'am sure I can think of at least 2-3 guys that would love to take your money.By the way is that $US.

meina222
02-19-2005, 06:45 PM
Sure mr shot

meina222
02-19-2005, 09:03 PM
the point is to prove the total and complete advantage of spit ix and perhaps get some ppl to whine about it's being toned down.

friendly challneges (no bets) also taken.

jurinko
02-20-2005, 12:30 AM
lol Kurfurst http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif